Talk:Chery

Below discussions copied over. Rangoon11 (talk) 13:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Many of Fleetham's changes to this article are purely stylistic, and are non-improving. They seem to be motivated purely by a desire to put text into their preferred style of writing. Sadly it is neither a good style, nor one which is commonly used in WP.

For example, in their latest round of edits the following changes were made:

• From: "Chery was founded in 1997 as a state-owned enterprise and began automobile production in 1999"
• To: "Founded in 1997 as a state-owned enterprise, Chery began automobile production in 1999"

• From: "Chery became the 7th most-productive Chinese vehicle manufacturer in 2010" (at the start of a new paragraph)
• To: "The company became the 7th most-productive Chinese vehicle manufacturer in 2010"Rangoon11 (talk) 13:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Fleetham persists in trying to remove information from the article which is relevant and useful to readers. For example, in their latest round of edits, the following facts were removed. Why?

"In October 2009 Chery announced plans for an assembly plant in Turkey to be built in cooperation with the Turkish automaker Mermerler Otomotiv at a cost of $500 million"

changed to

"In October 2009 plans for an assembly plant in Turkey to be built in cooperation with a Turkish company were announced"

"In March 2012, Chery and the UK-based luxury automaker Jaguar Land Rover agreed to invest an initial US$2.78 billion in a new China-based joint venture "

changed to

"In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to invest an initial US$2.78 billion in a new China-based joint venture "Rangoon11 (talk) 13:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't remove the mention of $500 million but simply moved it to another sentence that contrasts the total planned expenditure with Chery's initial expenditure of $120 million. I'm unsure if the other things are really important enough to comment on but am happy to do so if asked. Fleetham (talk) 16:35, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The points I was referring to are 1. that JLR is a UK-based luxury automaker and 2. that the Turkish company is an automaker called Mermerler Otomotiv. For me both details are useful to readers. Rangoon11 (talk) 18:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

In my view the lead requires both expansion and improvement. However I do not agree with the changes which Fleetham is making to the lead, which are, in my view, both low quality and place too much emphasis on impressionistic opinions rather than on facts.

I feel that regarding the lead the best way forward would be to hammer out a new version on this Talk page. I am happy to come up with a first draft, or for others to, or for multiple first drafts to be put forward. Rangoon11 (talk) 13:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I would like to point out that everything in the lead is cited with reliable sources, and I really struggle to understand your constant deletions of my additions. Saying things like "no improvement" when removing cited content that adds information not found elsewhere in the page does little to further this. I'd be more interested in "hammering out a new lead" if you were able to better explain why the one I worked on is "low quality". Please forgive me for saying so, but the impression I've gathered over the past few days is that you'd rather delete any material I add then listen to me or improve the page.

If you would, please, point out what is wrong with or need improvement in, this: A state-owned enterprise, Chery was founded in 1997 and began automobile production in 1999. It has been China's largest passenger car exporter since 2003[2] and in 2011 exported around 25% of its total production. Its focus on foreign markets may be due to the fact that the company has lacked a joint venture with a multinational automaker.[3] Although Chery may soon consummate a tie-up with Jaguar Land Rover, the only other independent state-owned carmaker is JAC Motors. In fact, because joint venture manufacturing is such a large proportion of vehicle production in China, Chery would place as the fourth-largest Chinese automaker in 2010 if joint venture production was stripped from domestic rivals.[4] It was named in 2009 "the leading independent domestic vehicle manufacturer in sales" by the US Congressional Research Office,[5] and consultancy Booz & Company has stated that the company "has developed... their own platforms, transmissions, and engines."[6] Some may argue that stolen IP has also made its way into Chery products; it has the distinction of being the only state-owned car maker to be accused of such theft. Fleetham (talk) 15:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to add that I appreciate criticism I can understand but not being told my work is simply poor. "Pointers, not insults" please. Fleetham (talk) 15:56, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

My frankness today has been borne of frustration and if the comments have been taken as insults then I apologise as that was not the intention. I should add that 1. I welcome your commitment to the area of Chinese companies, which is a woefully neglected one in WP, and 2. much of the factual content which you have added and continue to add is valuable.

My issues are principally to do with your writing style, your inflexibility and your tendency to place emphasis on opinion (albeit often cited) over fact.

What I would like to see for this lead is something like is now in place at BP or HSBC - a decent sized and balanced lead of four paras, each of around four to five lines in length. Each with a fairly focused mission. A lead which is a proper introduction to the whole of the topic and which covers company history, products, operations and key controversies (the latter brief), and places the company in the context of the industry both globally and in China. Rangoon11 (talk) 16:16, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I could go a long ways towards being more ready to step down from a position. In regards to the lead, I feel the best way to move forward is to agree on what those 4 or 5 paragraphs should focus on.

I feel that the "important topics of Chery" are things like export success, a long period of time without a foreign partner, and the fact that it is not in the same class as SAIC, FAW, BAIC, or Chana if only looking at production capacity. Another distinction may be that while many major state-owned automakers made commercial vehicles and buses before branching out into passenger cars, Chery developed later and has never produced trucks and buses (unless I am wrong--I do think they make some type of commercial vehicles, medium sized vans maybe?). The success of the QQ (or QQ3, which I believe is the original) also deserves mention. I recently ran across a recent article about it garnering a "famous Chinese brand" award. How many has it sold, and is it something like the 2nd most popular car to ever go on sale in China? And perhaps it should be made explicit that Chery products are not, unlike many if not most passenger cars sold in China, simply Chinese-made versions of "multinational models". Fleetham (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

So, I think the best way to move forward is to construct an outline of the lead, and then we can stick bits in the appropriate places. Fleetham (talk) 17:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, in defense of adding cited opinion to the lead, the analysis that lack of a cooperative joint venture with a multinational and export focus go hand-in-hand is both strongly stated in the source and has much explanatory power. The following quotes are from The Rise of China's Auto Industry and Its Impact on the U.S.... by the US Congressional Research Service:

"The international automobile manufacturers are unlikely to promote Chinese exports that compete with their own products in other markets. As a consequence, the Chinese companies that have expressed a strong interest in exporting cars have not had strong ties to foreign car producers..." (summary)

"Many independent domestic automotive manufacturers have emerged and have ambitions to make cars for developed countries." (pp. 2)

"Moreover, some assert, cooperation through joint ventures inherently restrains the Chinese partner from independently developing an export market for vehicles...." (pp. 13)

Fleetham (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's some info on the QQ; do you think it's popular enough to warrent a lead mention? It was the company's "most popular product" in 2005 (Eisenstein, P. (2005). Chery-picking from china. Professional Engineering, 18(4), 38-38.), and "was one of the hottest sellers in the domestic car market last year [2005] with sales rising 130 per cent to 110,000 units." (Dyer, G. (2006, Mar 21). China's chery prepares to make a splash group's micro-car has changed the chinese urban landscape and is now headed for the west. geoff dyer assesses its prospects. Financial Times, pp. 24-24.)

Chery itself referred to the car in 2011 as "a legend in the Chinese history of automobile... a mini model with the highest cumulative sales in China (800,000 in seven years)" ... and states that it has sold 900,000 units at home and abroad. 900K would mean its production numbers are about 30% those of what I assume is the most sold Chinese car, the VW Santana, which comes in at 3,213,710 units since 1983. Production per year is about the same at 110.8K for the Santana and 112.5 for the QQ. Fleetham (talk) 19:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The QQ seems no longer popular, however. CAAM stats show that while it ranked in the top ten in of 2007 & 2008 and Q1 of 2009, this was neither the case in Q1 of 2010 nor December of 2011. Fleetham (talk) 05:24, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that we are broadly on the same page. I support a mention of the QQ in the lead, of Chery's relative export strength, of its being unusual in not having had a joint venture with a major western car maker for most of its history.

For me however the lead should be primarily fact driven, with little comment or analysis. There will no doubt be many reasons for Chery's export focus and success. One may well be its lack of a major JV, but others could be simply mangement quality, luck, strategic positioning for other reasons etc. Making a bold analytical claim in the lead where there is no room to provide further context or detail and scope for debate exists is something which in this case I would find undue.

I will aim to produce a draft lead during the course of today and post it here for discussion. Rangoon11 (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

If not in the lead, it should be included in the page. I think it's a good transition from "exporting" to "lack of foreign JV" or vice versa, but if you object to a lead mention then don't include it. It does explain export focus, and as a company in a crowded market it's natural that you would want to expand production in a way that doesn't mean reducing average revenue per unit. If setting up sales outlets overseas is cheaper than doing so in China, or differentiating your product lines so they don't compete, why wouldn't you export? But the only ones that do don't have links to foreign firms. Fleetham (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is a bare-bones draft of an expanded lead. This should be seen as a first draft, not as a proposal for the final version:

Chery is a multinational automotive manufacturing company headquartered in Wuhu, Anhui, China. It was founded in 1997 and is a state-owned corporation. It is the seventh-largest China-based automaker measurered by 2011 output, with a production of around 600,000 units in that year.

Chery began the production of automobiles in 1999 and the export of its vehicles from China in 2001. It has been China's largest passenger car exporter since 2003 and in 2011 exported around 25% of its total production. Chery has a 50:50 joint venture with Israel Corporation, Qoros, which was formed in 2007 and is developing a range of premium vehicles for sale worldwide. In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to form a new China-based joint venture; as of July 2012 the venture is awaiting regulatory approval from the Chinese government.

Chery sell its vehicles under four brand names: Chery, Karry, Rely and Riich. Its products are primarily passenger cars, minivans, and SUVs. Chery's largest selling model has been the Chery QQ city car. Chery has several vehicle assembly and component manufacturing facilities in the mainland of China. Chery vehicles are assembled in around 15 other countries, primarily in factories not owned by Chery utilising either complete or semi-complete knock-down kits. Chery has two R&D centers in China and invests around 7% of its total revenues in product development.

Chery is unusual among large Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major western automaker for the past decade. The company has received criticism for having infringed the intellectual property rights of both General Motors and Toyota.Rangoon11 (talk) 00:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The only issues I have with that are naming it a multinational. A few joint venture plants that produce a minuscule amount of total production does not a multinational make. Perhaps saying that the company refers to itself as a multinational? Also, there are too many instances of the word "Chery", but that's easily fixed. Fleetham (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's an edit to remove all the Cherys.

Chery is a multinational automotive manufacturing company headquartered in Wuhu, Anhui, China. Founded in 1997, this state-owned corporation was in 2011 the seventh-largest China-based automaker measurered by output, and had a production capacity of around 600,000 units in that year. Beginning automobile production in 1999 and export from China in 2001, Chery has long been China's largest passenger car exporter and in 2011 around 25% of its total production was sold overseas.

Chery sells its vehicles under four brand names: Chery, Karry, Rely and Riich. Its products are primarily passenger cars, minivans, and SUVs. The largest selling model has been the Chery QQ city car. The company has several vehicle assembly and component manufacturing facilities in mainland China, but Chery vehicles are also assembled in around 15 other countries, primarily in factories not owned by Chery utilising knock-down kits. The company has two R&D centers in China.

Chery is unusual among large Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major Western automaker for the past decade. Most passenger cars produced in China are foreign models make by joint venture companies, and Chery, which only ranked 7th among domestic rivals in 2011, is the largest passenger car maker operating without assistance from a foreign partner. This is why Chery is sometimes referred to as "China's largest independent automaker". This situation may soon change, however. In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to form a new China-based joint venture; as of July 2012 the venture is awaiting regulatory approval from the Chinese government. The company already has 50:50 joint venture with Israel Corporation, Qoros, which was formed in 2007 and is developing a range of electric vehicles for sale worldwide.

The company has received criticism for having infringed the intellectual property rights of both General Motors and Toyota.

Notes: words I added to changed are in bold. Also, should "western" be capitalised? And I don't like the last one-paragraph sentence, but where should it be tacked on? It doesn't seem to fit in with any of the paragraphs. The explanation of Chery being the largest independent automaker also seems a bit awkward. Fleetham (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

In defense of "no multinational":

I don't think Chery qualifies for the title. This Iowa State page from an Econ 300-lvl class, while being kind of messy, lays out several criteria for being a multinational, and Chery may pass, however. It meets the 25% foreign sales criterion, "engages in foreign production through its affiliates located in several countries", and certainly has met the requirements for stages one and two of the "Three Stages of Evolution".

On the other hand, no independent source names Chery a multinational, and many use the word in opposition to Chery. The last sentence of this Financial Times article (March 21, 2012, "Jaguar Land Rover in tie-up with Chery" By John Reed) reads, "Chery is an unproven company when it comes to dealing with multinationals,” said Bill Russo, a former Chrysler executive who runs Synergistics, an auto consultancy." Moreover, this gasgoo.com article states in regards to the JLR JV that "the new JV will... help Chery learn about management from a multinational enterprise..." And this NY Times article states, "Less affluent buyers from Santiago to Baghdad are starting to buy cheap Chinese cars as alternatives to... models sold by multinationals."

It appears that when it comes to carmakers, there is a consensus about what is a multinational (Western famous name companies like Fiat, VW, and Ford) and what isn't, and Chery doesn't qualify. Fleetham (talk) 17:07, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here's another: "At the Baghdad Auto Show opened, Chery showed up with many star models. This year's exhibition attracted more than 100 exhibitors, including multinational auto brands such as Benz, BMW, Peugeot, Honda, Toyota and Hyundai." (IRAQ: Chery participates in baghdad auto show. (2011, Nov 11). Just - Auto Global News) Fleetham (talk) 18:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm willing to lose the word "multinational" in this case. Although I personally feel it to be correct, in view of a number of overseas production facilities and investments, and sales and distribution activities in many countries, I am prepared to compromise to get a new lead up and running.

Here is a revised proposed draft which removes the word 'multinational" and makes a few other tweaks based on comments received. Note that I have not included a number of your changes which were stylistic and in my view non-improving. Please make any comments separate and below the draft text as I am otherwise forced to check the article history to see changes.

Chery is an automotive manufacturing company headquartered in Wuhu, Anhui, China. It was founded in 1997 and is a state-owned corporation. It is the seventh-largest China-based automaker measurered by 2011 output, with a production of around 600,000 units in that year. Its products are primarily passenger cars, minivans, and SUVs and it sells its vehicles under four brand names: Chery, Karry, Rely and Riich.

Chery began the production of automobiles in 1999 and the export of its vehicles from China in 2001. It has been China's largest passenger car exporter since 2003 and in 2011 exported around 25% of its total production. It operates a 50:50 joint venture with Israel Corporation, Qoros, which was formed in 2007 and is developing a range of electric vehicles for sale worldwide. In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to form a new China-based joint venture; as of July 2012 the venture is awaiting regulatory approval from the Chinese government.

Chery has several vehicle assembly and component manufacturing facilities in the mainland of China. Its vehicles are assembled in around 15 other countries, primarily in factories not owned by Chery which utilise either complete or semi-complete knock-down kits. Chery has two R&D centers in China and invests around 7% of its total revenues in product development. Its largest selling model to date has been the Chery QQ city car.

Chery is unusual among large Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major western automaker for the past decade. The company has received criticism for having infringed the intellectual property rights of both General Motors and Toyota.Rangoon11 (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that's fine. Do you mind if I do a stylistic re-write to remove too many "Cherys"? At least from the beginning of some paragraphs? Fleetham (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, are we're just assuming that the QQ is its best selling model. I haven't read that anywhere although it's likely true. Fleetham (talk) 20:27, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is a cite which just about gets there for the QQ: . We could perhaps change the text to match the cite by saying "Chery's growth has been driven by the best-selling Chery QQ city car".

I don't want to lose any 'Cherys' from the start of paragraphs as I don't think it reads properly to start a paragraph with 'It' or 'The company'. However I have already removed a few from the text, and the below draft removes a couple more:

Chery is an automotive manufacturing company headquartered in Wuhu, Anhui, China. It was founded in 1997 and is a state-owned corporation. It is the seventh-largest China-based automaker measurered by 2011 output, with a production of around 600,000 units in that year. Its products are primarily passenger cars, minivans, and SUVs and it sells its vehicles under four brand names: Chery, Karry, Rely and Riich.

Chery began the production of automobiles in 1999 and the export of its vehicles from China in 2001. It has been China's largest passenger car exporter since 2003 and in 2011 exported around 25% of its total production. It operates a 50:50 joint venture with Israel Corporation, Qoros, which was formed in 2007 and is developing a range of electric vehicles for sale worldwide. In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to form a new China-based joint venture; as of July 2012 it is awaiting regulatory approval from the Chinese government.

Chery has several vehicle assembly and component manufacturing facilities in the mainland of China. Its vehicles are assembled in around 15 other countries, primarily in factories not owned by the company which utilise either complete or semi-complete knock-down kits. It has two R&D centers in China and invests around 7% of its total revenues in product development. Its largest selling model to date has been the Chery QQ city car.

Chery is unusual among large Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major western automaker for the past decade. The company has received criticism for having infringed the intellectual property rights of both General Motors and Toyota.Rangoon11 (talk) 22:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the lead is pretty much ready to be posted, and the following details can be addressed later if needed. Instead of Chery, Chery, Chery, how do you feel about paragraphs with leading sentences that begin with a dependent clause or have a subject other than the company, such as "Automobile production began in 1999, and Chery first exported its vehicles in 2001" or "While most manufacturing is done at facilities in Mainland China, Chery vehicles are also assembled in around 15 other countries..."? And I'll look for something that helps place the QQ as a popular model or best seller... not sure I'll find it though. Also, is the only Toyota IPR complaint that a Chery model resembles a Toyota one? Because if so I don't think it should be in the lead. And is Chery really a "large Chinese automaker"? There are five Chinese vehicle makers that have production over 1 million units and account for 82% of all top ten output nat'l output. (See 2011 CAAM production wrap-up Chery has about half the production of the fifth largest of these. Fleetham (talk) 15:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to be so nit-picky. The only really important thing to me is the style. Repetition is bad style! Fleetham (talk) 04:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I've found a lot of info on the QQ, but nothing that unequivocally states it's Chery "most sold" car. The QQ is "Chery's cheapest model" and its "best-selling export model"; was a hot seller in 2004, 2005, and 2006 (when it made up 60% of all Chery cars sold); etc. etc.

In the absence of any better find, I move that the lead mentions that Chery is "well known for" the QQ model, citing this article: Geoff Dyer, in Shanghai. "FT.Com Site : China's Carmakers make Domestic Inroads." FT.Com (Mar 01, 2006). The following quote from the above talks about the building of the QQ brand:

"Yet in the case of the QQ, industry observers say there is more to its success than just a low price-tag. Unlike most other Chinese brands, whose marketing involves glitzy gimmicks that attract first- time buyers, Chery has managed to create a significant amount of buzz around the model, especially among young people.

The brand itself is also the name of an instant messaging service that is popular among young Chinese and the company has used the internet including collaborations with the Sina.com portal to reach new consumers. The bright colours have also helped establish an image.

"More than any other Chinese model, the QQ has managed to establish an identity for itself," says Chris Reitermann, managing director of the Beijing office of OgilvyOne, the advertising agency."

Another source from the same author states, "Chery is best known for its QQ mini-car" (Geoff Dyer, in Shanghai. "FT.Com Site : Proton in Talks with Chery Over Manufacturing." FT.Com (Mar 30, 2006)) Fleetham (talk) 03:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The following article repeats the "Chery is best known for..." line: Shirouzu, Norihiko and Alex P. Kellogg. "Corporate News: Chrysler, Chery End Joint Project." Wall Street Journal, Dec 10, 2008. Fleetham (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Happy to change the text for the QQ as suggested. In my view Chery is a "large" Chinese automaker in view of the fact that there are around of them. How else would you propose to reword that sentence?

I don't like sentences which begin with a dependent clause, particularly at the start of paragraphs.

Here is a revised draft:

Chery is an automotive manufacturing company headquartered in Wuhu, Anhui, China. It was founded in 1997 and is a state-owned corporation. The seventh-largest China-based automaker measured by 2011 output, it produced around 600,000 units in that year. FINE Its I WANT TO KEEP THIS 'IT'S', FEEL IT IS NECESSARY FOR GRAMMAR AND FLOW Products are primarily passenger cars, minivans, and SUVs and it sells its vehicles under four brand names: Chery, Karry, Rely and Riich.

Chery began the production of automobiles in 1999 and the export of vehicles from China in 2001. (Could also read "Chery began the sale and export of vehicles in 2001) READS BETTER AS IS AND START OF PRODUCTION IS SIGNIFICANT It has been China's largest passenger car exporter since 2003 and in 2011 (Needs to be double-checked/cited... I believe I calculated 2010 export ratio) CITE HERE: exported around 25% of its total production. It operates a 50:50 joint venture with Israel Corporation, Qoros, which was formed in 2007 and is developing a range of electric vehicles for sale worldwide. In March 2012, Chery and Jaguar Land Rover agreed to form a new China-based joint venture; as of July 2012 it is awaiting regulatory approval from the Chinese government.

Chery has several vehicle assembly and component manufacturing facilities in the FINE mainland of FINE China. Its vehicles are assembled in around 15 other countries as well, NOT NEEDED primarily in factories not owned by the company which that NO, "WHICH" IS CORRECT utilise either complete or semi-complete knock-down kits made in China. It has two R&D centers in China and invests around 7% of its total revenues in product development. Chery's best-known model is the Chery QQ city car.

Chery is unusual among large FINE Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major western automaker for the past decade. The company has received criticism for having infringed the intellectual property rights of General Motors.

Rangoon11 (talk) 14:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I marked up the above. I would strike "large" from "Chinese automaker". From about 30 I know of, eleven don't have a JV (twelve if you count BYD, which is in the process of getting one with Mercedes). If you discount subsidiaries, that's 6/15 that don't have a JV. There may well be many more Chinese automakers I'm unaware of, but big or small it seems foreign cooperation is common. Fleetham (talk) 15:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The claim as stated "unique for a decade of no JV" could be better reflected in the 11/30 figure than the 6/15, as many subsidiaries were once independent companies (those w/o a JV are nice takeover targets). Either way, about 0.4 Chinese automaker don't have a JV. Fleetham (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments shown in draft in BLOCK CAPS. I think we are almost there!Rangoon11 (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I can sympathize with your dislike of sentences beginning with a dependent clause. Where does that come from? Anyway, I think it's "good to go" just needs a few citations. And the GM IP thing needs to be reworded because no citation supports it--GM claims theft and an out-of-court agreement was reached.

The following sentences need citations as not cited in text: " Chery's best-known model is the Chery QQ city car", "it exported around 25% of its total production",

No citation will support "Chinese automakers in not having had a joint venture with a major western automaker for the past decade", "Its vehicles are assembled from knock down kits in around 15 other countries" but that's okay.

Did I miss any? I think the statement that "Chery is best-known for the QQ" also works in reverse, so the following should cite the first sentence in need of a citation above: Geoff Dyer, in Shanghai. "FT.Com Site : Proton in Talks with Chery Over Manufacturing." FT.Com (Mar 30, 2006)

I'll work on the citation for the exports unless you want to. Fleetham (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't like sentences beginning with dependent clauses, I just find them clumsy.

The GM issue - I would be happy to leave the whole sentence out of the lead to be honest. I am open to that sentence being reformulated also.

I just checked and Qoros is not exclusively or even primarily going to be starting with electric cars so that sentence needs to change to just 'premium cars'.

The 25% figure I would be willing to lose if it can't easily be cited. Of course we don't need a specific cite provided we have cites for each of production and export numbers.

I don't think "Its vehicles are assembled from knock down kits in around 15 other countries" needs a specific cite as it is merely a summary of text in the article. Rangoon11 (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I added a source for the 25% export thing. While Global Times may not be the most reputable source (I read somewhere it was a "tabloid"), Xinhua and the province of Anhui both reported Chery expected high export number in 2011. Fleetham (talk)

I put up the lead, but the page currently lacks mention of the fact that Chery produces a sizable number of the Chinese passenger cars that aren't made in joint ventures. I believe you added a cite that showed Chery was the 4th largest Chinese vehicle manufacturer if you discounted JV production from its domestic competitors. Moreover, a close reading of page 10 in The Rise of China’s Auto Industry and Its Impact on the U.S. Motor Vehicle Industry seems to give support to the claim, which I've read in several press releases put out by Chery and its affiliates, that the company is China's largest independent automaker. (This may seem to clash with the OICA output report that puts Chery 4th, but both claims could be true: it would mean that commercial vehicle production at the top 3 were the reason Chery was 4th and not 1st.)

As the page currently lacks any info. about the above, I just wanted to endorse mentioning it on the page. It doesn't seem a natural fit with any of the current sections, so do you feel it warrants a lead mention or would it be best to make a new sub-section for it (perhaps also including that, unlike others, Chery production is almost exclusively passenger vehicles)? Fleetham (talk) 17:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering how to deal with the $500 million investment in Turkey, as sources are unclear as to whether this is the price tag for the project or Chery's contribution. For example, this Gasgoo article states that it is both. The headline proclaims that Chery will invest $500 million, but later states that "total investment in the project is estimated at about $500 million." This Turkish newspaper article says Chery will be footing the entire $500 million bill, as does this article. It seems that whatever the cost, "in the first stage Chery would invest [only $120 million"]. I'm inclined to believe that the total investment by both parties is planned to reach $500 million per the Gasgoo article, as they're more likely to have contacted Chery being a source that covers the Chinese car industry not "news of the nation of Turkey". I've also read a number of articles on the topic and none state the amount the Turkish project partner will stump up.

It's important to be able to make this distinction between total investment and Chery's investment because it's one thing to say, "Chery plans to invest $500 million in Turkey, but will only provide about 1/5th of that initially" and another to state, "Chery's initial contribution to the $500 million project will be $120 million." Fleetham (talk) 16:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes the distinction is important. It seems to be the case that the total cost of construction will be $500 million. For me that should definitely be included as it helps readers to assess the overall scale of the project. Of course if details of both Chery's share of the investment cost, and the manner in which the investment will be phased, can be cited then those details should be added. Rangoon11 (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd say anything to downplay the project's importance would be good to add. Headlines say things like "$500 million for 100,000 units/year factory!" but dig a little deeper and you'll find out those numbers refer to plans that may come to fruition in 2017 and nothing newsworthy has occurred in the 2.5 years since the project has been announced. This reminds me of a recent Great Wall knock-down factory built in Bulgaria: touted as a 50,000 unit factory, when completed it had a 2K/year production capacity. (Of course, it will be able to make 50,000 cars "sometime later") Fleetham (talk) 19:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that it is harder to find reliable sources which give ongoing commentary on the status of projects under construction. There is generally significant media coverage of the initial announcement, and then perhaps of the opening, but in between very little.

I do think that the plans for the project are significant and relevant however, and the description of the planned phased expansion in capacity is already in the text. If reliable sources can be found which also descibe the actual current status of the project then I would fully support inclusion. Rangoon11 (talk) 12:30, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

The only thing I remember reading was something about building it in a swamp. Or not doing so because it would add to the cost. I'm not sure why in 2012 the same Turkish news outlets reported exactly the same thing they did in 2009; you think that such an article would include some sort of update. Fleetham (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it sank into the swap :).Rangoon11 (talk) 00:14, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Whether by design or happenstance this article appears to be generally in British English. I would like to formalise this through the addition of a British English tag on this page unless there are objections from the other regular editors.Rangoon11 (talk) 12:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine by me.  Mr.choppers | ✎  19:19, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

To me it looks, as if this car can not drive.

• How should the front wheels be driven?
• Can the front wheels be steered? It looks, as if the wheels have just one millimeter space and no space to move in another direction than straight ahead.
• I imagined, how I could step in. No success!

--Hans Eo (talk) 12:23, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

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I am very interested in the Chinese way of production.

The models shown in this article don't agree with what I see.

The website below seems to be a Chery produced list of parts. http://cherylist.com/chery-automobile.aspx

The models shown does not agree very well with the models in this article.

Comment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Les Ismore (talk • contribs) 13:27, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• 奇瑞汽車 北京モーターショー2012.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

عدم رضایت از خدمات نمایندگی چری در تهران لطفا پیگیری کنید مشتری را سردرگم می کنند. پول می گيرند در حالی که موظف به خدمات رایگان هستند من راضی نیستم. لطفا با من تماس بگیرید ممنون م 5.211.35.239 (talk) 13:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

يُرجى عدم المساهمة باللغة العربية في هذه النسخة من ويكيبيديا، يُمكنك المساهمة باللغة العربية في النسخة العربية من ويكيبيديا.

Please do not contribute text in Arabic to the English Wikipedia. Your contributions are more than welcome at the Arabic Wikipedia. 78.174.182.186 (talk) 12:10, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That's Persian. Not Arabic. Aminabzz (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2025 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Chery Tiggo 8 V Leopard Variant MY2026 IMG01.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:06, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Chery Fulwin A9 prototype IMG01.jpg
• Chery Fulwin T9L MY2026 IMG01.jpg
• Chery QQ3 III MY2026 IMG01.jpg
• Chery Tiggo 9L MY2025 IMG01.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:37, 12 January 2026 (UTC)