Talk:Christ Cathedral (Garden Grove, California)

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Crystal Cathedral was copied or moved into Crystal Cathedral Ministries with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Untitled

This article is clearly not NPOV since it treats its subject with glowing praise. From my own point of view I have often wondered why such devoutly spiritual folk would blow huge amounts of money on an ostentatious edifice instead of giving it straight to the poor and hiring an old hall to preach in. Lee M 02:38, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Took a crack at NPOVing it. How's it look? Header can go? Bryan 00:49, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I thought this article looked pretty good after Bryan's cleanup, so I fixed one or two last details and removed the dispute header. Is this ok?

This is not very NPOV: In a sermon in spring 1991, shortly after the end of the Gulf War, the minister of the Crystal Cathedral, in a Sunday sermon, prayed to thank God that no one had been killed in that war. This prayer of thanks, interpreted as a statement of history, ignores, then, the demise of several tens of thousands of Iraqi military and perhaps 2,000 civilians, as well as, apparently, a few hundred U.S. and allied soldiers. --Dd42 22:07, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Not many can judge what goes on at the Crystal Cathedral, because only the people who have relationships with the people can know what really goes on and what the minsters really have a heart for, against what most of the public gossips about. Only one from experience and relationship can judge and truly evaluate what the Crystal Cathedral actually is should be writing anything on this page. Me, for example is the one that has a voice that should and will be heard. Dr. Schuller from personal experience, is a great person, and truly loves the Lord with all of his heart, the rest would make sense if someone knew his intentions. Nov. 13, 05 A Crystal Cathedral student.

We'd appreciate your contributions to the article, but please make sure that they rely on verifiable sources and maintain a neutral point of view. Thanks, -Willmcw 04:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

US$ 17 million in 2005 dollars

"that's around US$ 100 million in 2005 dollars" - where does this data come from? I've found inflation and CPI data that indicates 17 million in 1980 would be less than 50 million in 2005; even calculating from 1977 would only bring that up to 55 million or so. Zhwj 15:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

All numbers and informations were quoted from the History Channel's program Building in the Name of God. I also believed that US$ 100 million was quite high, but I wanted to quote the History Channel. Please, correct the information then... And I also believed that the total end cost of US$17 million was quite low for a project of that size, but Time Magazine backs up History Channel data. See the link:

Robert Schuller, 59, a bland-looking but calculatedly theatrical performer, presides over the vast, glittery Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove, Calif. Finished in 1980 at a cost of $18 million http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101860217-143137,00.html Herbert Alves 02:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I've checked a newspaper archive for coverage from 1980. The reported cost varies a bit, from $17-20 million, but $18 million is the most common. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

denomination

Bit silly for such a big article to not even list the denomination / movement this church belongs to.--194.81.255.254 (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

interior of the church

why is the same picture in the article twice? surely there must be another picture somewhere —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.84.125 (talk) 19:55, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Crystal Cathedral Ministries

No official word on a name of the future cathedral by the Diocese of Orange yet. Suggestion is to move parts pertaining to its former use to the new article Crystal Cathedral Ministries.

Rebel shadow 12:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebel shadow (talk • contribs)

Let's wait until the dust settles and some more definitive word on the transition to the Catholic diocese is established. Once that happens, I'm pretty sure that we'll go with one article on the building and one article on the Protestant church organization. Remember that Wikipedia is not news, and it is preferable to get information right than to get it first. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:34, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I take that back, as I have found better sourcing for two stand-alone articles. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Recent disruptive editing

It will be appreciated if editors stop editing this article on the basis of what they think will become the situation in the future with this church. It is a matter of policy that articles only reflect the present situation and not the future regardless of how likely that may be. The facts are that this church will remain a Protestant one for the near future and that until the process is completed the church is not yet sold to the Diocese of Orange. Any edits that violate this policy will be removed or reverted. Anglicanus (talk) 01:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that part of the issue/misunderstanding here is that another user (see above) decided to fork out an article on the church organization at Crystal Cathedral Ministries. At first I disagreed, but after thinking about it I thought that we could make a case that as it stands today both the organization and the building are sufficiently notable for two stand-alone articles. So I went ahead with turning this article into an article about the building and made Crystal Cathedral Ministries about the Protestant organization that built and still occupies the building. If you look at my last edit to this article, I tried as much as possible to write the article from the standpoint that it has been a Protestant building since its inception, it currently is a Protestant church building, but that it is in the process of being sold (not that it has been sold) to the Diocese of Orange. Yes I did state what the diocese plans to do with the building, but most of what I stated was cited and I was going to come back with references for what I didn't cite. As always, I concede that my wording could have been better, but I never once edited this article to state that the Crystal Cathedral is currently a Catholic building. I can't say the same for these edits: . Though I never spent much time on the Crystal Cathedral Ministries article, I made sure that it says that the organization is currently headquartered in the Crystal Cathedral building and that it did not say that the building has been sold. I would greatly appreciate a revert of this article to the version I gave above (my last edit). If you don't agree, I would at least like the lead section to be replaced with the lead section of my last edit to this article, as the lead section before I started editing this article was excessively detailed and gave undue weight to recent events. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:51, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I don't have any objections with what you are trying to do and, under the current circumstances, making this article primarily about the building seems sensible. I found it too difficult at the time to untangle your edits from those of other editors who were taking a time-travelling approach to editing. If you want to edit the article back to the version you suggested I won't object. Cheers, Anglicanus (talk) 15:11, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I also agree with reverting to that version (but please keep my reference formatting). Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 15:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I will revert momentarily. I will continue to WL this article and do my best to keep the article writen from the point of view I described above without crossing the WP:OWN line until the situation changes (i.e., the sale is completed, definitive lease terms are publicized, etc.). If you disagree with anything I do feel free to discuss here or on my talk page and revert if necessary. 72Dino, the proposed revert version already has the bare URL ref corrected (I assume that's what you were referring to as "my reference formatting"), but it still has two other bare URL refs. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Pardon the question, but doesn’t it seem a bit heavy-handed and misleading for the sixth word and first adjective in the article to be Protestant when the article is about a building and that building is currently owned by a Roman Catholic diocese? Buildings rarely profess particular religious views and can often be used by multiple sects. When the character of a building is critically changed by the faith that worships there (for instance, the Salt Lake Tabernacle), fine, but even the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, St. Peter's Basilica and Cathedral of Christ the Saviour are satisfied with "church", eschewing even the "Christian" adjective; Canterbury Cathedral, the seat of the leader of Anglicanism worldwide, doesn’t mention the Church of England until the second paragraph. The facts that the Crystal Cathedral was built by and is currently used for worship by a Protestant denomination are important facts, but the current status makes the initial adjective inappropriate in context. I don’t want to enter this particular edit war, but rewording to "The Crystal Cathedral is a Christian church^[1] in the city of Garden Grove, in Orange County, California, United States" seem like a sustainable plan in line with similar Wikipedia articles. I'd even lose Christian but I have a feeling I'd get flamed for the suggestion... Kevin/Last1in (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

The simple answer to all of this is that the building is *still* owned by the Crystal Cathedral Ministries and has not yet been sold to anyone. So that is its "current status". Therefore, until such time as the approved sale to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange or anyone else is legally finalised (if it ever is) the building remains a Protestant church. Wikipedia articles reflect the present - *not* what may happen in the future. Anglicanus (talk) 07:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It's possible that you missed my point. Who owns it right now, and who worships there right now, are pertinent to the article but not descriptive of the building, which is the purpose of an adjective. The unmodified term, church, is used for buildings as iconic as St. Peter's and Christ the Saviour. Applying a sectarian adjective to the building, especially six words into the lead sentence, is unlikely to improve the reader's understanding of the article's subject. The proposed sale to the Diocese is also important and is presented lower in the article. I am not advocating replacing Protestant with Catholic; I am advocating the removal of denominational adjective entirely. It is inaccurate (buildings don't have sects; people who worship in them do) and misleading in the context of the building's current situation.Kevin/Last1in (talk) 14:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Incubated reference

I'm incubating this reference here because it doesn't fit with the sentence it was supposed to reference, but I don't want to outright delete it as we might be able to use it elsewhere on the article: —KuyaBriBri^Talk 21:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Diocese of Orange section

I removed the recently added new section on the Diocese of Orange as it was far too long and most of the details were not especially relevant. I am happy to discuss this but I think all that needs mentioning at present about the diocese's plans is already in the article. If and when it actually becomes a RC cathedral then some of this information may be more appropriate to include. Anglicanus (talk) 07:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

I added that section to establish the backstory; that is, to say that "this is the history of the diocese's cathedral and its attempts to build one, and the CC is a step in that direction". I was basically trying to explain how the two parallel histories converged into the current "transitional" state of the building. As I've said before, I completely understand that the sale is not a foregone conclusion, and the text will definitely need to be revisited if the sale doesn't go through. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Escrow closed Feb. 3, 2012

Escrow closed on Feb. 3, 2012, and the Crystal Cathedral is now owned by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange (see here). The article will need to be revised to reflect this. I will start but may miss some wording. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 18:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

While it is now owned by the RC diocese it will still be used by the original church for at least some reasonable time. I have reworded the article to accurately reflect the current known situation. Afterwriting (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Renaming

It was announced that the Crystal Cathedral would be renamed Christ Cathedral. However, I don't see in the references when this name change will occur. That is the name that the Catholic Church has given the facility, but it appears that the current congregation will continue to meet there for another year (references state June 2013). I believe this article should remain Crystal Cathedral until Catholic services are held there, at which time Christ Cathedral would be appropriate. A redirect from Christ Cathedral to Crystal Cathedral would exist until congregations change, then the redirect can be reversed. I'm interested to hear what others think. 72Dino (talk) 02:23, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

It was completely wrong to rename and redirect the article at present. This has introduced various policy problems. No articles should ever be renamed in this way UNTIL the change actually takes effect - which, in this case, it hasn't and won't for some time yet. All that has happened is that the name for the building WHEN it becomes a Roman Cathedral cathedral has been announced. Although the building is now owned by the RC diocese it is not yet is NOT yet a Roman Cathedral cathedral and it is not yet "Christ Cathedral". So until the building actually has that status the renaming of the article was completely inappropriate and needs to be reverted. Afterwriting (talk) 10:48, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

As an historically important building, the article should be kept at "Crystal Cathedral" even after the name change has been effected, with a redirect from "Christ Cathedral." In any event, the move should not be made without a RM. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

i think your premise for historical significance is completely refuted based on the precedence of the name changing of even more historically significant and iconic Sears Tower to Willis Tower. however, given its significance, i would agree that a move request should ~~probably~~ have been submitted first. --emerson7 16:30, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Not "probably". It was a definite policy mistake and should not have even been contemplated. Fortunately it has now been reverted. At some stage in the future it may be appropriate to change the article's name - but to change it on the basis of an announcement of the expected new name well before the building even has the official status of a Roman Catholic cathedral is not acceptable. Afterwriting (talk) 17:49, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...complicated. So, is the cathedral getting bought out or something like that? I am leaning toward the site of making a new, separate article for Christ Cathedral, if it's going to be a fundamentally different building. If it's just a name change, that's one thing, but this seems to be more than that. Silver seren^C 22:24, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

No, it's exactly the same building, they said they would alter the interior and change the name; a separate article isn't required. Of course, this is all WP:CRYSTAL (ironically) at the moment as nothing is going to happen until 2013 anyway. Black Kite (talk) 22:37, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

The whole thing wouldn't be an issue if this was your standard one-congregation-moves-out-and-another-moves-in situation. The problem being that the building is architecturally significant, with a well-known history under the name "Crystal Cathedral", which is how the majority of people will probably be looking for it. Still, plenty of time for those discussions when building's name is officially changed and someone initiates an RM. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:11, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

A renaming situation occurs when a sports venue changes major corporate sponsors. For example the home of the American Major League Baseball team Cleveland Indians was changed from Jacobs Field to Progressive Field. For the present however the Reform congregation is still in there. After they move out it will take months to complete interior renovations to accommodate Catholic worship. So it will be a while before there is a need to addess the renaming issue. NightSt✷r talk 02:10, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like there is a consensus here but for what it's worth I'll throw my hat in and say that I oppose a move until the name change actually occurs. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I oppose a move before OR after: WP:COMMONNAME, done deal. Ravenswing 02:17, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, that's my position as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The renaming is now official. The last services held by Crystal Cathedral Ministries, & and first Mass held by the Roman Catholic Church were held on Sunday June 30th, 2013. --Subman758 (talk) 05:12, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the renaming is still to come. The old regime had its last service, but the new regime has yet to move in , . Note "future Christ Cathedral" in the LAT article and "will be renamed" in the KNBC article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

To be precise, the building will not technically bear the name "cathedral" under Catholic practice until there is a cathedra contained therein (a Bishop's chair). Until the time where the Bishop of the Diocese of Orange calls this building his cathedral, the name change will not be official. I believe this is scheduled to occur in 2015 after the internal renovations. The group of Catholics who moved to the Crystal Cathedral from St. Callistus parish will still refer to themselves as St. Callistus parish until the Church officially rededicates the building. That being said, since the campus is now owned, operated, and used by the Catholic Church, it may be apropos to rename the article with its intended name, Christ Cathedral. Especially since "Crystal Cathedral Ministries" has now renamed themselves as "Shepherd's Grove" in their new location. NapB9 (talk) 00:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

It's often the case that our articles on historical churches (which the CC is, despite its modernity) are titled with the original name of the building, because we go by WP:COMMONNAME, and it's likely that "Crystal Cathedral" will be its common name for quite a while to come. (And, actually, I wouldn't be surprised if it remains the name, despite the current plans to change it.) Changing the name of the article to "Christ Cathedral" makes little sense, as not only is it not official as of yet (as you point out), but no one really knows it by that name at this time. A simple HAT note, plus explanation in the lede can provide clarity about what building is being referred to, and where the reader should go if they're looking for a different entity or building. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed that, like the Sears Tower, "Crystal Cathedral" will most likely continue to be the common name for the near future. The redirect here for people who search for "Christ Cathedral (Garden Grove, California)" should be sufficient for now. The main point I was trying to make was just that even in the eyes of the Catholic Church, this building is not yet "Christ Cathedral." So I agree with your last paragraph there; if in the future the building is commonly referred to as Christ Cathedral, then this should be revisited by the wikipedia community at that time. NapB9 (talk) 02:40, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Time to rename the article. As of November 2013 the renaming has happened, interior alternations are underway, and the CCM has moved out with St. Callista moving in. Its owned by the Catholic Archdiocese now. I've tried to neutralize it to be focused on the building and its history. When Christ Catheral opens them its time for another update. I tried to remove all religious citations since there is now a separate page for the Schuller Ministries organization, whatever it will rename itself.

LA Times article: November 17, 2013 "Cathedrals renewal begins." Sorry if I broke anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.84.84 (talk) 04:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I think the time for renaming of the article will come when Christ Cathedral actually opens, as discussed above. Things are still in flux, and the state of the article reflects that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

BTW, do you have a URL for that LAT article? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

While I recognise the complexities with the name and information in this article, I agree with Beyond My Ken that the appropriate time to make a change to Christ Cathedral is when the building actually becomes the new cathedral for the Diocese of Orange. At present it isn't and won't be for some time yet. Afterwriting (talk) 07:20, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

New York Times declares that the Cathedral has been renamed: "It was later bought by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County and renamed Christ Cathedral in 2012." jps (talk) 18:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

References

[1]
Goodstein, Laurie (October 23, 2010). "Debt and Disputes Cloud the Crystal Cathedral". The New York Times.

Just FYI if you call up the Google Street View image of the entrance to the property, there is a formal sign naming it Christ Cathedral Academy. The most recent Street View image is dated February 2015. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Consensus on this page is to rename the article when the cathedral reopens. BMK (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

So that means when the Cathedral itself is consecrated? The property itself has been renamed, in addition to the adjacent cemeteries and parish school (academy); it would seem to make sense to rename the article already, especially since the St. Callistus parish community has also been renamed under the new name of the Cathedral. However, it is understandable that the centerpiece of the property is not completed yet since the article itself refers most directly to the building than the parish/cemetery/academy. The trouble though is that the "Crystal Cathedral" as a name is no longer used by both the Catholic community and the Shepherds' Grove community in any official designation, only wikipedia uses the term as a placeholder it seems. -Rebel shadow 19:32, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but it's still the WP:COMMONNAME most identified with the building. My understanding was that the reconsecration was not too far off. If that's so, there's no harm in waiting. WP:CRYSTAL (ironically) also applies. BMK (talk) 19:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

According to Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Orange#Cathedral, the consecration will occur next year. It makes sense to wait until then, I guess. In the meantime, collecting sources seems like a good idea to me. jps (talk) 20:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

According to the Orange County Register, plans for renovation were announced in 2016, with work starting in February 2017. I have no idea when work is expected to finish. http://www.ocregister.com/2017/02/13/catholic-diocese-kicks-off-72-million-christ-cathedral-remodel/ SlowJog (talk) 03:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Missed it. That article says mid 2019. SlowJog (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Christ Cathedral (Garden Grove, California)

Untitled

US$ 17 million in 2005 dollars

denomination

interior of the church

Crystal Cathedral Ministries

Recent disruptive editing

Incubated reference

Diocese of Orange section

Escrow closed Feb. 3, 2012

Renaming

External links modified

External links modified

Reopening / Dedication: 2019, not 2017

External links modified

Organ re-installation

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Organ

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