Talk:Doctorate

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Research Doctorates

The article says that research doctorates are awarded (obviously as the name suggests) on the basis of completion of original research that is publishable in a peer-reviewed vehicle and represents "at least a modest contribution" to knowledge in the area to which the research is related. I believe the use of the term "modest" understates somewhat the requirements for a research doctorate. Most universities in the US require an extensive body of original research that makes a so-called substantial or significant contribution to existing knowledge. The contribution can be narrow, but should not be modest as suggested by the article.

Also, it should be emphasized that, contrary to higher doctorates like the LL.D or the Litt.D, a research doctorate like the Ph.D is always awarded by examination. In the US, that takes the form of one or more preliminary/qualifying exams in addition to the final oral exam. 161.24.19.112 (talk) 20:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Article overhaul

Hello. This article has borne edit tags for sometime and I'd like to get it up to par. I've archived a couple years' worth of talk, and I created a new List of doctoral degrees awarded by country to help get some of the lists off this page. If you notice weird things in the next couple weeks, bear with me or simply comment on the talk page here. Any help appreciated. Thanks! --Eustress (talk) 01:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I made the bold decision to hide all Country-specific programs that had absolutely zero citations. Most of it has been uncited for a long time and no one has done anything about it. So, if you want the text to return, feel free to do so when you have located the appropriate citations to support the text. For the programs that have remained, there is still much to do, but now section specific tags can be used instead of ones over the entire article. Thank you! --Eustress (talk) 22:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Argentina issues

I recently removed the following phrase because it doesn't make sense, I'm guess due to translation issues. If the original poster (User:Carau) would please present the text here in Spanish (or Castilian), I would be happy to offer translation so it makes sense in English. Thanks. (Text to follow:)

Regarding the recognition of the PhDs programs, the 46 section of the Higher Education Act N° 24.521, sets out that the National Commission for University Evaluation and Accreditation must provide the PhD validation prior completion of a Major or Master degree[1], in Castilan: Especialización o Maestría, all of them by stating a fully agree with the standards set forth by the Department of Education, Science and Technology together with the Universities Council.

--Eustress (talk) 01:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

This statement needs to be clarified:

Currently, there are approximately 2,151 postgraduate careers in the country, of which 14% were doctoral degrees.

Does this mean that 14% of these careers require a doctoral degree? Or, perhaps, 14% of these careers/positions are held by those with doctoral degrees? Or something else entirely? Are these postgraduate careers academic positions?

Once we've clarified this statement, it would probably also be informative if we could provide some information about other industries in which those with doctorate degrees in Argentina work. In isolation, the statement could give the impression that there are very few people with doctorate degrees in Argentina or that the employment prospects for those holding this degree are extremely limited, neither of which is true.

Hananekosan (talk) 22:19, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

'Grand PhDs' - diploma mills?

Should this be included in some way? which is a diploma mill but some unexpected people have their 'degrees'. (Unsigned comment by User:Dougweller)

From my research, it does not appear this "degree" is yet notable, so I would be against its inclusion. --Eustress (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Germany

"There are no first degree doctorates but medical students can obtain a "Dr.med" after one semester of mostly undergraduate research or data evaluation. The "Dr med" is not equivalent to a PhD but to a masters degree. Medical Students going into research can obtain a genuine doctorate (PhD) in some subjects, such as molecular medicine or human biology."
That's technically incorrect. Although German med students can complete the doctoral thesis during undergraduate studies, the Dr. med. is legally not equivalent to a masters degree, but to any other kind of German doctorate. The masters-level professional degree in medicine is the State Examination - taken after 6 to 7 years of undergraduate studies - which must be completed before the doctoral degree can be officially awarded. Also, it is true med students can take a second "genuine" research doctorate, i.e., a Dr. rer. nat., however it is rather uncommon to do so. Most medical researchers and professors did not take a second doctorate, but prefered to proceed to habilitation. Hope this helps. Fred Plotz (talk) 14:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. As you can tell, the section is very poorly sourced, so any sourced contributions are welcome. --Eustress (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I can provide sources, but they are all German. Don't know if this is very helpful in this respect. Fred Plotz (talk) 14:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I can't find any policy on that, but it would be better than what we currently have. The WP:Cite web template has a field to indicate the language (|language= ). Thanks. --Eustress (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm going to change that and expand the Germany section a little. But it might take a day or two. So long! Fred Plotz (talk) 16:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest adding the related ISCED levels (in Germany this is ISCDE 6) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.196.33.91 (talk) 11:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"However, the "Dr." does not become part of a person's name and naming the title is, even in official documents, not mandatory." no... if you are a Dr. you can change you name at the "Personalausweis". so it becomes part of a person's name and it is mandatory in official documents.

You can change your Personalausweis so that the Dr. is stated there, but that does _not_ change your name. It is an addition to your name, not a part of your name. See for instance http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademischer_Grad#Akademische_Grade_als_Namenszusatz --Biologos (talk) 15:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Of course an addition to your name is a change of your name. Your whole explanation doesn´t make sense to me at all. In which country does an academic degree actually change your name? It´s always just "Alex Fuller (PhD)" or (MP) or whatever. Why do you have to mention that for Germany than? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.188.69.41 (talk) 06:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I guess it depends exactly what you mean by "name": some people and/or jurisdictions make a distinction between someone's personal name, their title and whatever postnominal letters they might be entitled to. In the UK, for example, the whole thing tends to be left fairly nebulously defined, and as long as you're not trying to misrepresent yourself for fraudulent purposes, nobody usually minds. In Germany, though, I believe the law is rather stricter, and from what I can tell there is a careful legal distinction made between one's personal name, title(s) and postnominal letters. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 10:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

History

I'm sorry that I don't have more time to improve the history section right now. But in my research of the J.D. article, I know that there is more specific information out there on this topic. For example, this source is useful: Herbermann, et al. (1915). Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Encyclopedia Press. The article section as it exists is very vague and not useful. I expect that is the reason why it was removed in the first place (I didn't remove it). Zoticogrillo (talk) 02:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Professional doctorates

I've reverted this again because I'm not convinced that the US professional doctorates (such as the MD and JD) are the same thing as the vocational doctorates (such as the EngD and EdD) that have recently been introduced in the UK. They both place more emphasis on professional practice than the PhD does, but the UK vocational doctorates require (indeed, primarily consist of) a substantial component of original research of a level close to that of a PhD, while the US professional doctorates don't, and are essentially graduate-entry professional training degrees with little or no original research component. I don't think it's correct to conflate the two. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You are in error here. In the US, the doctorates like the EdD and the DBA are considered research doctorates, not vocational or professional doctorates. The dissertation requirements of the EdD and the DBA are intended to be of the same rigor and depth as that of the PhD. They do normally focus on further developing or refining existing theory versus the development of new theory, but in many cases there is overlap in this regard also. I am going to revert your revert because I believe your input in this regard to be more opinionated and regionally based than universally correct (and I will say that this is about the only time I've disagreed with your thoughts, but this time I believe the further distinction to be warranted.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.218.86 (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The DBA and EdD are not professional doctorates, but neither are they equivalent to the PhD. The DBA and EdD focus on the application of existing knowledge rather than, as does the PhD, the creation of new knowledge. Similarly, for academic accreditation purposes, the PhD is considered a terminal degree regardless of the field in which it was taken, while an EdD (for example) is considered terminal only in the field of education. Wikiant (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
That’s where we (our Wiki colleagues) usually get into a shoving match. When it’s said that the EdD and the DBA are not equivalent to a PhD and then purport to back that up by saying the PhD dissertation develops new knowledge and the EdD and DBA dissertation has their focus on the application of existing knowledge we are mixing apples and oranges.

In this context “equivalence” has nothing to do with research focus it has to do with the relative equivalence of the degree once conferred. The US National Science Foundation lists 50 or so research degrees (among them the EdD and DBA) as being equivalent to the PhD and does not distinguish between them.

The other mixing of fruit and possibly veggies in your statement is the categorical distinction between the PhD’s focus on developing new knowledge and the EdD and DBA’s focus on applying existing knowledge – I’d point out two areas there that give me concern, 1.) there is frequently overlap between areas and locus of study between the various degrees and 2.) extrapolations and derivatives of existing theory by definition add new knowledge versus merely variants in a applied state. The overlapping Venn diagrams of the scope and depth of the various studies frequently have more overlap than excusive distinction, meaning some EdD and DBA dissertations provide new learning from machinations of existing theory and some PhD dissertations are unique only in their rehash of previously trodden ground. And I’ve come to this conclusion by sitting on dissertation committees for both PhDs and DBAs in business over the years. I can’t say much about the EdDs other than I know quite a few and most take umbrage to being told that their level of scholarship is not “equivalent” to that of the PhDs (a concept however held almost universally by PhDs and a source of endless debate on and around campus, but one supported by little in the way of facts and data.) It’s also very interesting to see those ensconced in research and the scientific methodologies give way to emotion when the debate moves in the direction of level grading their respective degrees.

There is undoubtedly more relevance to qualifying equivalence between schools and programs than the specific dictates of their various degree formats, e.g., which is higher in contribution to new learning, the dissertation of an EdD from Harvard versus that of a PhD in education from Podunk State U., or that of a DBA from University of Southern California versus a PhD from University of Kansas – point is you just don’t know until you look at the work, because nothing firmly and in an exclusionary manner drives you one way or the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.218.86 (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think I agree with pretty much all of this. I wasn't trying to draw undue distinction between the PhD and research-oriented doctorates like the EdD and DBA, indeed, I was trying to say that they should be considered roughly analogous. The UK versions (which seem to be fairly similar to their US counterparts) are, except that the research component of the 'vocational' doctorates like the EdD, DBA and EngD is supposed to have a more practical and practice-oriented slant to it, and may typically be presented in the form of a portfolio of smaller project reports rather than a single thesis, but is still required to be of an analogous standard to a PhD. However, my understanding of the US degrees of JD and MD (and so forth) is that they're primarily graduate-level professional training degrees without a substantial research component, and so probably shouldn't be placed in the same category. Have I understood this correctly? Or do the JD and MD also have a PhD-level formal research component? -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
While not intending to set off another firestorm regarding the difficulty, complexity, rigor and substantial achievement inherent in becoming a MD, JD, DPharm, DAud, etc., because each is quite an accomplishment in its own right with a challenging practicum combining scholarly work and training, they typically do not have a substantial research component and, in the US, are considered professional degrees and not placed into the categorization of research degrees.
A good natured, but hearty, jab: imho research is WAY overrated... particularly when it's wrong! ;) I'd rather change the law or save a life any day. So many PhD's are just a bunch of inflated nerds. Zoticogrillo (talk) 17:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Easy there. There are only two professions I can name that create their own demand. That is, the more you have the more you need. One is soldiers. The other is lawyers. Wikiant (talk) 18:08, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
And I thought I had heard them all.  :) Zoticogrillo (talk) 19:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there is something really interesting in analysing the differences between the US professional doctorates and the UK vocational doctorates. I'm sure this has been touch on by scholars in published works, and I hope someone looks for them. I am of the (humbly informed) opinion that it doesn't make any sense to compare degrees that are the product of very different educational systems. Zoticogrillo (talk) 21:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

We do tend to spend a great deal of time gathering information regarding the componentry, philosophy, and overall makeup of somewhat disparate international educational systems (regardless of the positive work done by many to harmonize the various systems’ outputs) and then in attempting to normalize the data. I think that’s where the compelling read of Wikipedia comes in, most contributors are well informed, albeit frequently regionally and experientially based and biased, and are really trying to inform, share and enlighten. Passion creeps in, on both sides, when specific fields or degree types assert superiority and / or dominance, but that’s part of high-flying over-achievers getting together for a bit of intellectual parrying, jousting and (usually) good natured bashing of their colleagues. Ya gotta love it, or not, I suppose.

I've just reverted several edits to the Doctorate#Professional doctorates section by an anonymous user with ip address 68.61.196.89 because I felt that they parochialised the text to a purely US-centric view. In particular, examples of professional doctorates outside the US (such as the Czech Republic and the Netherlands) were replaced with their US counterparts, and the distinction between the different sorts of MD (which in some countries is a professional degree with no research component, and in others is a higher doctorate with a substantial research component) was lost. Also, the second paragraph was trimmed to remove remarks and citations about the way some other countries use the term 'professional doctorate' in a different way to the US. I hope this is ok -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 08:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The same user tore through the J.D. article and made senseless edits with uncharitable edit summaries as well. It seems that your edits were appropriate. Edits from 68.61.196.89 should be viewed critically. Zoticogrillo (talk)

09:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Answering Nick Jackson's question, if we were to follow Zoticogrillo's criteria to distinguish between "research doctorates" (awarded on the basis of original research that makes a significant contribution to existing knowledge) and "professional doctorates" (awarded on the basis of coursework and/or perhaps practical training only), then the British EngD degree should belong to the former category rather than the latter. However, having said that, the EngD differs substantially from the traditional British PhD in the sense that:
1) A PhD degree is normally pursued full-time by a student while in residence in a university department working under the supervision of a faculty member. Accordingly, PhD-level research is more speculative/abstract in nature, with an emphasis on producing results that may be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals and are of academic interest.
2) The EngD on the other hand is normally pursued by a candidate while he/she works as an employee in an outside company. Most EngD research is carried out in a designated industry (as opposed to a university department or lab) and is jointly supervised by both an industrial and a university supervisor. Accordingly, EngD-level research tends to be application-oriented in nature and designed to meet the specific needs/interests of the industrial sponsor. Usually, a portfolio of project reports is acceptable as a substitute for a longer monographic thesis to fulfil(l) the EngD graduation requirements.
The controversy then revolves around what is meant exactly by a "professional" or "vocational" degree. In the UK, it appears to me that there is a consensus that a doctorate must necessarily involve a strong original research component and, hence, there are no "professional doctorates" in the US (Zoticogrillo's) sense (like the American JD for example). The distinction between the traditional PhD and the new "vocational degrees" in the UK is therefore not one of research vs. lack thereof, but rather one of academically-oriented research in a university setting vs. application (or even commercial)-oriented research in a industrial setting.
On a final note, contrary to Zoticogrillo's opinion on this issue, whether based on coursework or research-based, any bachelor's, master's or doctoral degree granted by a university is, by definition, an academic degree, as opposed to non-academic degrees (like member, senior member, fellow, elder, etc.) awarded for example by a commercial guild, professional society, church, or social club. Also, Zoticogrillo's statement that the English (undergraduate) BA degree in jurisprudence/law or the equivalent LLB are "liberal arts" degrees is factually incorrect, as those degrees do not have a liberal arts curriculum similar to what is found in Liberal arts colleges in the US for example. In fact, quite the contrary, the English BA in Law is a highly specialized undergraduate degree (like all UK bachelor's degrees BTW). Zoticogrillo is however right when he (she ?) claims that the English BA/LLB does not cover procedure/legal practice, focusing instead on legal theory (with practice being taught in the UK system in postgraduate vocational courses and also learned/learnt during pupillage).

161.24.19.112 (talk) 14:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As you have discovered, academic systems and traditions vary widely across the globe, and even simple concepts that one would expect to have universal application (such as the definition of even the first university degree) do not. The existence of the Bologna Process is evidence of this. The J.D. article is very well supported and discusses the professional degree programs in the U.S. in great detail. You will find many of the sources cited there very informative. A good article which analyzes the differences of the UK and US degrees in the field of law is: John H. Langbein, "Scholarly and Professional Objectives in Legal Education: American Trends and English Comparisons," Pressing Problems in the Law, Volume 2: What are Law Schools For?, Oxford University Press, 1996. Enjoy. Zoticogrillo (talk) 21:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


I think that example MDDr. (Doctor of Dental Medicine in Czech Republic) is not so good, because this is very new degree, at this year are first graduates with this degree. I think that example MUDr. (Doctor of Medicine) may be much better.--Formol (talk) 00:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, the degree of MD is, I beg to differ, not at a level above the Ph.D - but lower. It is more equivalent to an M.Phil degree, which is a two year 'higher masters' degree by research (sigh, except at Cambridge were it is an ordinary taught masters after 1 year - they always like to be different). Likewise the MD, is a two year research degree appropriate for someone who has completed the MB BS medical degree (5/6 yrs), but very few do, and still use the title 'Doctor' even though only having a bachelor degree (of medicine and surgery). The Ph.D degree is a research degree needing at least three years and a maximum of five years, full time research (seven years part time). Philip Robinson — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.170.131.21 (talk) 02:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Request for Review of the History Section

It looks like several Wikipedia articles that cover the history of academic degrees (e.g. PhD, doctorate, academic degree, postgraduate education) have been cut and pasted or edited from a reference mentioned as "the Catholic encyclopedia", and sometimes contradict each other.

For example, it is stated in some of those aforementioned articles that the Master's degree in medieval times was awarded as the terminal degree in the Faculty of Arts, after which one could proceed to the higher faculties (Theology, Law, etc.) where the terminal degree was that of Doctor. However, the postgraduate education article at the same time implies at one point that master's degrees were also awarded in the higher faculties (prior to a doctorate) and that practice actually varied from country to country. In fact, at some point, the postgraduate education article even suggests that one could proceed to the higher faculties without a master's, which again contradicts the information in the other Wiki articles. On the other hand, although there appears to be a consensus in most Wiki articles that the master's degree conferred the right to teach in th Faculty of Arts, it is unclear whether a doctorate was actually required to teach in the higher faculties (which doesn't appear to be the case in England for example where doctorates were rare). There is also conflicting information in the different articles on the number of years required to earn a bachelor's, master's and doctor's degrees in the medieval universities and on the requirements for each degree (again, practice probably varied from country to country).

That seems all confusing to me and I suspect that there may be inaccurate information in some of the Wiki articles. I suggest someone who is an expert on the topic review the "History" sections in all relevant articles and clean them up, preferably using more than one reference and avoiding cutting and pasting.200.168.20.118 (talk) 10:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk of "terminal degrees" just confuses things further as that concept has never really existed in the UK system. Traditionally a degree was something closer to a rank and a university a sort of membership society - the formal title of the University of Dublin is "the Chancellor, Doctors and Masters of the University of Dublin" and that of Trinity College, Dublin is "the Provost, Fellows and Scholars of the College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth near Dublin", reflecting this. (Similarly Oxford is "The Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the University of Oxford", and I think Cambridge is something similar.)
The highest rank in the Faculty of Arts was "Master", or less ambiguously, "Master of Arts". Other, higher, faculties had the option whether to call their highest degree "Master" or "Doctor", both meaning "teacher", and some did use the "Master" title as well.
As for the rest, part of the confusion is in the articles trying to summarise a system that changed quite a bit over the centuries (and where the modern Bachelor's-Master's-Research Doctorate(-Higher Doctorate) set-up is in some regards a reversion to earlier practice). Timrollpickering (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

list of professional doctorates

It is not useful to include a long list a professional doctorates, particularly when the long list includes less common doctorates that are all in the medical field. Zoticogrillo (talk) 08:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

PhD in Management

I've removed this from the short list of example research doctorates, because (a) that paragraph only needs a few examples, which it already has, and (b) the PhD is already mentioned a sentence or two earlier. (It's also not clear to me why the PhD in Management warrants an (admittedly comprehensive and well-sourced) article of its own, when there are large numbers of other subjects in which it is possible to do a PhD, but which don't have a separate article of their own. I may be missing an important point here, though, and I'm happy to be corrected.) -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

References

Viscountrapier edits re terminal degrees and citation to Forni article, "Models for Doctoral Programs"

Grand Doctor of Philosophy Degree

Many programs don't require an MS and MS is given after completing PhD coursework

Info about Spanish doctorate very outdated

Use of title "PhD (c)

Consecutive Sentences Contradict Each Other

Medieval doctorate and Islamic Ijazah

Terminal vs. Professional

terminal professional degrees and first professional degrees

Too much Latin

Doctor of Law and Public Policy (L.P.D.)

Research Doctorates in the United States

Research Doctorates in Canada

Practice by country, Argentina

India

PhD holders aren't experts in their field?

External links modified

Hidden note requiring talk page discussion before changes

"Postdoctoral researcher"

External links modified

External links modified

External links modified

Article title

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