Talk:D. Gary Young

Should Donald Gary Young's bio include the fact that a worker was killed at his facility by a device he designed? Proposed:

"On August 17, 2000, one of his distillers ruptured, fatally wounding a worker at Young Living Farms in Mona, Utah, a 1,000-acre farm where plants were cultivated for essential oil extraction using a steam distillation process. Young Living Farms was fined a total of $10,280 for seven safety violations. UOSHD reported: “The entire operation was designed by Gary Young President and built on site. The vessels were not built under any consideration to ASME [American Society of Mechanical Engineers] code for pressure vessels. No type of pressure relief device was installed on any of the vessels."”^[1]

DolyaIskrina (talk) 05:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• A while ago I suggested noting the possibility that Young was a bigamist based on innuendo from his multiple allegedly serial marriages. Was told that innuendo wasn't enough, we can't connect those dots. Don't see how this is any different. Seems its been "discussed to death" that there's no proof of who built the boiler or even designed that piece of equipment, and no kind of finding binding Young responsible for it. If he can't be deduced a bigamist by innuendo, surely nor can he be deduced a murderer by the same kind of innuendo. Hyperbolick (talk) 06:14, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• While I agree that we don't have evidence to effectively say "DGY built a thing that blew up and killed someone," I do think that the Young Living section on this article merits some expansion - it's half the lead and arguably what he's most well-known for, but the Young Living section here is four sentences long. Granted, it's got its own article and all the details are there, but I don't think a slight expansion here would be remiss. Maybe something like:

  "Multiple complaints and lawsuits have been lodged against Young Living, including seven safety violations noted following an inspection into an employee death in 2000, reports to the FDA of adverse product reactions from 2013 to 2014, federal misdemeanor charges for illegal trafficking of certain oils in 2017, and a proposed class-action lawsuit alleging that the company is an unlawful pyramid scheme in 2019."

How does that (with the appropriate sources) strike everyone? It makes mention of the boiler incident as a fact that happened to the company, avoids using Wikipedia's voice to say it was his fault, and allows the reader to check the Young Living page for more detail. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:33, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

User:NekoKatsun's solution looks right to me! NickCT (talk) 17:59, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I support this edit. I think it would improve this page and should also be added to the Young Living page. Thanks! However, it doesn't actually solve my problem. According to the source, DGY designed a device that killed a man. When you say we "don't have evidence" I have to say that we are not in the evidence business. We are in the notability and reliable source business, both of which support the inclusion of the quote. DolyaIskrina (talk) 23:49, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The source doesn't say that he designed the device. It says that the operation was designed by Young. Designing an operation and designing the devices used in the operation are not necessarily the same. - Bilby (talk) 00:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate that! I agree with Bilby; the quote says that he designed "the operation," which could just refer to how things are laid out. I tracked down and read the citation, and it doesn't specify who actually designed the distillers. I agree with you that it's notable and reliably sourced, but the wording is juuust vague enough that we don't know exactly how responsible he was for the death. We know that it was his operation, and we know that there were $10k of fines levied afterwards for other safety breaches, and we know that he was approached as part of the investigation. The difficulty as I see it is that if he designed and built the distiller that blew up, it absolutely becomes his fault and should be included here, but if he didn't, then it belongs best on the Young Living page only. I'm looking at it a little like if a machine in the first Ford factory killed a worker, and someone described the incident in the same way, i.e. "The entire operation was designed by Henry Ford and built on site," I'd have no way of knowing if Ford designed the machine that killed someone or if he just designed the factory. Similarly, without knowing what "operation" specifically refers to, we can't know exactly how culpable DGY is, and therefore whether or not that quote specifically should be on his page. Have you been able to track down any other sources about the distiller's origin? If we can pin down who designed and/or manufactured it, that would help a great deal. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 00:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

We would be including verbatim what the source said. This is the full quote without edits: "The entire operation was designed by Gary Young President and built on site. The vessels were not built under any consideration to ASME [American Society of Mechanical Engineers] code for pressure vessels. No type of pressure relief device was installed on any of the vessels." Either this quote is worthy of inclusion or it is not. If not, why? DolyaIskrina (talk) 01:25, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I like the proposal as far as the wording but would actually think that would be a much better intro for the Young Living page since the current lede simply hammers a single issue with the US FDA. Having your wording above is a more accurate summary as there have been multiple issues that need to be summarized in the lede while the finer details can stay in the body. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

• I tend to agree with NickCT that NekoKatsun's proposal moves in the right direction. This being a WP:BLP article, we need to be careful to avoid fomenting guilt by association, even for a pseudoscience advocate. I would reword the proposed text to make the broader connection a bit more direct, while making the laundry list of allegations somewhat more minimal (and less potentially redundant to Young Living), something along the lines of:

"Throughout Young's tenure as CEO, Young Living faced various investigations, complaints, and lawsuits, including findings of safety violations and reports to the FDA of adverse product reactions."

I don't think that a misdemeanor or a proposed lawsuit necessarily merit mention here, but this gives readers enough to lead them to Young Living if they are interested in those details. Of course, the fact that a particular source phrases something in a way that creates an unstated implication certainly does not obligate us to quote that source, or otherwise convey that implication. BD2412 T 01:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I am liking the proposed changes, especially the latest by BD2412. I am contemplating doing a second RfC for my other issue, which is that the lead should include something like "arrested for and plead guilty to practicing medicine without a license." I'm new to RfC's though, so I don't want to do something untoward. Just, this page needs fresh eyes, and I have multiple issues that I don't want to lump together. Having said that, something like BD2412's proposed new text occurring in the lead, would potentially solve both of of my problems. 1) is a second RfC helpfull? 2)what do you think about adding something like that to the lead? Thanks for all the help folks. DolyaIskrina (talk) 02:08, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone intended to propose that this text should go in the lede, and it is certainly not the basis for which the subject is notable. It would be rather sloppy editing to mix up matters most relevant to the company as an entity with matters relevant to the individual. A second RfC on a proposition raised in an ongoing RfC seems a bit excessive. BD2412 T 02:19, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, then, I see we do need a second RfC, because otherwise we will just rehash the discussion we've already had about what belongs in a lead. This is not something that just came up in this discussion. It's from the previous discussion about the lead. To be clear, I support adding your proposed text. Why not go ahead and do that now? I hope that, unlike in the past, the process doesn't play out that, next someone says it should not be on this page, cause it much better belongs only on the Young Living page, and then eventually someone else deletes it from that page. Then poof it's no longer on wikipedia at all.DolyaIskrina (talk) 19:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Re: "it much better belongs only on the Young Living page, and then eventually someone else deletes it from that page", the problem, then, is the deletion of relevant content from Young Living. Putting content more relevant to the company on the page of an individual is not a solution. Nor is forum shopping through multiple discussions or multiple RfCs aimed at the same matter. BD2412 T 19:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't see an issue with the wording. But now I wonder if the sentence about the FDA should be there since your proposal would better summarize that there have been numerous issues and not just that one. --CNMall41 (talk) 19:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I see your point, given that an FDA complaint would likely have referred to the company, not the individual. If that is not the case, then I would want to see the language of the complaint stating otherwise. BD2412 T 19:57, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I would need to revisit but I think the FDA complaint actually is for distributors who made the claims. There is a reference from the BI that says the company pushes them to make these claims but there is nothing about Mr. Young doing this. The Young Living page also needs some cleanup as there are many claims about Young that seem to have slipped in there which are already on his BLP page and not relevant to the company. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:16, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I tweaked the FDA information in the Young Living page to remove the WP:SYNTH. I think adding the wording you propose would be fine for DGY in place of the FDA information. I will take some time to do some other cleanup on Young Living and then likely clean up that lede to something along the lines that NekoKatsun proposed. Two birds, one stone. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

• We don't want to conflate issues so this comment is strictly about the RfC. I would be opposed to the proposed text for many reasons which have already been stated by others above and discussed numerous times on the talk page (both recently and in the past). --CNMall41 (talk) 19:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
  • @CNMall41: Just to be clear, do you mean to oppose to all of the proposals, or just the initial proposal? BD2412 T 19:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Just the initial proposal. The other comments seems to be going in the right direction but I wanted to make sure to bullet point a comment for the initial so that there isn't too much confusion. --CNMall41 (talk) 20:13, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Note: on closer review, the OSHA report cited by the OP specifically states at pages 13-14 (pages 47-48 of the PDF) that "Todd Rindlisbaker P.E., WHW Engineering, Inc. ... designed the pressure relief system to be installed on each of the vessels". In short, the document cited for the proposition that there was a "pressure device designed by Young" expressly states that the device was designed by someone else. BD2412 T 03:52, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The quote I've been wanting to add from SI also comes from page 47 of the PDF and says "no type of pressure valve was installed." So your interpretation of that particular section of the report can also be questioned. Who cares who designed the thing that wasn't installed? Why wasn't it installed? We aren't investigative journalists and it's not up to us to decide which part of the OSHA report is relevant. We are not supposed to be interpreting a primary source like this. WP:PRIMARY: "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." The SI article is SECONDARY. The quote is the quote. If your reason for excluding it is that you've read the OSHA report and you have a different take on it than the SECONDARY, then that is OR. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

SI is not claiming that Young designed the device. Only you are. The OSHA report which you have yourself cited clearly states that the device was designed by an engineer named Todd Rindlisbaker. At this point you are seeking to introduce into the article an interpretation that you know to be factually incorrect. BD2412 T 05:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

These are the factual claims that I think should be in the article: 1. a worker died at his plant. 2. The OSHA inspector said the above quote. Neither of these things is in question. If you would like to then add your additional reading of the OSHA report to the article, that is a separate matter, and personally I wouldn't oppose that, even though I think it would be potential OR. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:21, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I think Someguy1221 said it best at WP:ORN: "If a secondary source says, "according to primary source, X", but the primary source clearly says, "not X", the policy-compliant resolution is simply to decide the secondary source isn't reliable on that point". We do not deceive our readers by putting things we know to be untrue in articles, and this includes adding false innuendo or false implications. Perhaps other editors will disagree and you will gain a consensus for some proposed wording along those lines, but that clearly is not the case at this time. BD2412 T 04:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

You and I honestly disagree on whether or not the OSHA reports says "not X". I think we even disagree on what X is. This is why we shouldn't go down the rabbit hole of fact checking Secondary Sources, per WP:SECONDARY. You found a passage that says an engineer designed pressure valves. My quote which was quoted in WP:RS and Secondary says there were no pressure valves installed. So what do we make of that? We follow the WP:RS and include the quote and let the readers be adults and decide for themselves. Young was the president (and/or CEO) and he designed the facility. The inference that the death of a worker was a significant and notable event in his biography is really quite modest. DolyaIskrina (talk) 05:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, please provide a source stating that the pressure device was itself, in fact, designed by Young. Absent a source making this specific connection, the death of a worker in an industrial accident does not meet the test of relevance to the biography of the subject. BD2412 T 06:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The fact is, there isn't one. That should be the end of this RfC. Everything else discussed in this section is just noise and needs to be handled elsewhere.--CNMall41 (talk) 00:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Reaffirming first point. Didn't actually design it. Now that's made clear. One might think learning this would lead to reevaluating what other errors one might be pushing. Hyperbolick (talk) 10:34, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, since we've decided we should be reading the OSHA report, I went ahead and did that. BD is mistaken. The pressure relief system mentioned on page 48 of the PDF (14 by internal pagination) were additional added elements after the accident. That is why the quote that I'm trying to add, says "No type of pressure relief device was installed on any of the vessels." The valves BD mentioned that were designed by the engineer were the required fix after the accident. A man was just killed after all. Here is the quote that BD thinks is exculpatory (my typing so beware typos) "Mr Rindlisbaker also designed the press relief system to be installed on each of the vessels… new temperature gauges were also installed." This all took place after the accident. In other words, the entire system was designed by Young, then someone was killed, and changes were made. Now at this point in the argument you usually say "entire" doesn't mean the specific parts. Doesn't matter. Young is the CEO. He was an involved CEO who "designed" and he took great pride in pressure devices specifically. And those devices were the foundation of his business. It's not like a worker slipped on the way to the bathroom. It's not like a worker got run over by a forklift. The thing that makes Young notable killed someone. We don't have to prove that he was criminally negligent. We just have to state in a fairly neutral way that a worker was killed by a distiller in a "operation designed by Young". We have both RS and PRIMARY to support that. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you please provide a source that states unambiguously that Young designed the specific device that exploded? A half dozen editors in this discussion would like to see a source that says this before such a controversial accusation is made in the article. That was already the consensus before Rindlisbaker's role was explored, and the report does not make it clear that Rindlisbaker's modifications were not of his own earlier work. BD2412 T 05:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposed, add this content from the Young Living page, which I think is very well done and solves all our issues. I'm not being intentionally thick, I know you have stated multiple times why you wouldn't want to do this, but I honestly don't understand the reasoning. Why can the Young Living page have all that bio stuff about Gary Young, but the Gary page can't also have significant events that happened while he was running his company?>>>>

In 2000, the Utah Occupational Safety and Health Division (UOSHD) investigated an August 17, 2000, explosion of a distiller, that fatally wounded a worker at Young Living Farms in Mona, Utah. UOSHD fined Young Living Farms $10,280 for seven safety violations, stating that "no consideration was given in the design and construction of distillation vessels with respect to American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) pertaining to design and construction of pressure vessels", and that "none of the pressure vessels are equipped with any type of pressure relieving device". According to the UOSHD, "the entire operation had been designed by Young Living founder Donald Gary Young and built onsite". DolyaIskrina (talk) 09:20, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

You are correct. However, the logic is somewhat misguided. The information about DGY on the Young Living page is a WP:COATRACK and I am going to tone it down. It shouldn't exist there anyways since it is more about him and not the company. This is one of many things for both articles that have been left to remain as a compromise (despite not being inline with Wikipedia policy) from people WP:BLUD both pages which is why there are some of us keeping a close eye and trying to ensure that we adhere to NPOV and not feelings or wants of what feel should be included.

• The issue is that companies are not identical to individuals. We have had this specific discussion before—we have numerous instances where employee deaths, even in larger numbers, are noted in the article on the company, but not on the article of the founder or owner or CEO. The OSHA report we keep going back to is an investigation of the company, not of this article subject. The report indicates that a number of employees were interviewed regarding safety issues, but was the article subject even interviewed by the agency? BD2412 T 16:16, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Per the report, if I recall correctly from when I last read it, yes he was interviewed, but the "operation had been designed by DGY and built onsite" quote is the closest it gets to explicitly dinging him for wrongdoing. If we have evidence that he designed the vessel that exploded - "the entire operation" isn't quite enough - then I'd be all in favor of including this death in DGY's article. Without that, though, since this is an article about a person, I lean towards leaving it on only the Young Living page. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 18:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Based on my revision of the Young Living section on the DGY page, it is there (both pages). I used partial wording you had proposed so that we have a summary of major events instead of just the FDA warning. I would agree with you about including it in further without express language saying he was the one who did it. Anything else would be SYNTH. DolaIskrina has been asked numerous times for a reference that expressly states DGY is responsible and has so far failed to provide one. As such, I am afraid this RfC has sizzled out. --CNMall41 (talk) 18:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

CNMa1141 I like the way you worded it on the YL page! Thanks. I would like it on this page too, and then I'd be very happy. If that's a sizzle, then let's sizzle. NekoKatsun, yes Young does appear in the OSHA report as having been present at at least one of the meetings. And there is plenty of evidence that he has designed distillers, and he calls the process proprietary, and was hands-on with the onsite manufacture of the devices. I think the way it is written above is the perfect solution to all our problems. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Quick question. Is there any reason not to include the victim's name? He was Juan Gomez. DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Why on earth would we include the name of the person killed, in a BLP where we cannot even decide (and there is currently more dissent than agreement) to include the incident at all? Also as stated above, it IS on the DGY page in the Young Living section. The only issue is that you want it in the lede and you still have not shown ANY reference that says he designed it. This is for Young Living, not DGY. It shouldn't be on the page at all but since we have a section for YL it is fine to include a quick summary which is there (both positive and negative). All you are doing with your arguments above is exactly the definition of WP:SYNTH. --CNMall41 (talk) 03:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying that I want the death of Juan Gomez in the lead? I don't. The lead stuff is in the other RfC I opened (I opened two in hopes of avoiding exactly this sort of confusion). And even there, I never wanted the death in the lead. I just want the death mentioned in this article the same way it is mentioned in the YL article (some changes would be required). Wherever it's mentioned, why not name the victim? DolyaIskrina (talk) 03:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

"CNMa1141 I like the way you worded it on the YL page! Thanks. I would like it on this page too, and then I'd be very happy. If that's a sizzle, then let's sizzle." - Now I am confused. That is a quote from you yet you say that "some changes would be required?" Either you like it or you don't. As far as confusing, I don't think people opining are causing it. When you add more information into your RfC such as including the name of the person who died it certainly does widen the goal posts of the RfC and should be dealt with in another thread. Note, I said another thread, not RfC. Finally, you still refuse to provide a source about DGY designing or building the distiller (a source that says it directly, not OR or SYNTH). Are you planing to do so or are you conceding that one doesn't exist? --CNMall41 (talk) 03:48, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I think minimal changes, such as my strike through, would make it fit just fine. I'll make another proposal in a second to be more clear. As to proof that Young designed the device, it seems like you think I want to put "Young murdered a man with a distiller" into the article. If you look at all of the actual text I have proposed, every version is very close to what is already in the Young Living passage. If whatever level of proof got us to that text is enough for you then it's certainly enough for me. And if naming the victim is too... sad? then we don't have to do that. DolyaIskrina (talk) 04:34, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

This source -- https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/june/d-gary-young-leader-of-the-modern-day-essential-oil-movement-passed-away-in-may -- seems a good source on the balancing side, but it is Christian, and we all know how that is received by some. Hyperbolick (talk) 19:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't have any issues with religious sources, but the content of this one makes me a little leery - it directly quotes the Young Living news release about DGY's death without anything to clarify that it's a quote (the entire "modern pioneer" paragraph), sources Wikipedia (which feels circular to me, although admittedly I don't know if that's actually a problem or just me being weird), is plain wrong about his age at death, and I think the only thing included that isn't already covered is the establishment of the D. Gary Young Living Foundation. Is there something I'm missing? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 20:50, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Thought a nice balance could be struck with noting the volume of charitable work later in life, which this article notes. Not the sort of thing that would turn up in the hit-pieces. Hyperbolick (talk) 10:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

I think something for balance would be fine but I wouldn't go in-depth with anything unless there is a reference that talks about his specific work with the foundation. Otherwise we would be venturing back into the OR rabbit hole. I did find quite a few references that talks about the company and the foundation so putting in something more in-depth about the foundation on the company page would be appropriate. --CNMall41 (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I added a snippet to the Young Living page. I will do some searching now to see if we can find how DGY is tied to the foundation. It is obviously named after him so maybe there is a reference that says that instead of him "founding" the organization???--CNMall41 (talk) 19:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I have removed {{Alternative medicine sidebar}}, which was just added to this article, per WP:NAVBOX, which states that "Every article that transcludes a given navbox should normally also be included as a link in the navbox, so that the navigation is bidirectional". In this case, the alternative medicine sidebar lists practices, not people, so it would not appear to conform to WP:NAVBOX. However, if there is some countervailing principle, I would be open to hearing it. BD2412 T 01:41, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

The writer of this article was obviously biased against D. Gary Young. I find it disgusting that the writer diminished all of the good that D. Gary Young did for humanity. Autarchicx (talk) 15:16, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

There is no "the writer". The article is based on reliable sources. If you have reliable sources who mention all of the good, bring them. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

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