Talk:Dutch dialects and varieties

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Attribution

Page was created as summary-style article split from Dutch language. Diff: CIreland (talk) 18:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Unmotivated tag

As far as I can see, there is no contradiction whatsoever between the content of this article and that of nl:Nederlandse dialecten, let alone a serious one. Who is responsible for this tag and on what grounds could it have been assigned? I am very curious to hear which reservations on whose side there possibly could be here. It looks like some unexplicable mystery. -- Ad43 (talk) 14:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Focus

The whole article lacks focus. Its subject is not clearly defined. It should about either:

Dialects of the Dutch language; or
Dialects of the Netherlands

The definition:

Dutch dialects are primarily the dialects that are both cognate with the Dutch language

and are spoken in the same language area as the Dutch standard language.

does not make much sense. By this definition French Flemish would not be a Dutch dialect, while Lower Saxon would arguably be. Then the article goes on to mention several dialects outside the area of the Dutch standard language.

So what should it be? All dialects spoken in the Netherlands (including Frisian), or, as I would suggest, all dialect varieties of modern Lower Frankish (of which Dutch is the only official standard language). This would exclude Frisian and Lower Saxon.--Joostik (talk) 19:00, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the template {{Dutch dialects}} (displayed on the right) covers most dialects. Frisian is not a dialect - it's a language. If Frisian would be mentioned in the article, than for that reason and that reason only. Low Saxon should be included, though. Richard 07:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Re: Across the borders

The previous text read:

'Zeelandic (Zeeuws) is spoken in most of Zeeland (Netherlands) and is a transitional regional language between West Flemish and Hollandic. In the eastern part of Zeelandic Flanders, East Flemish is spoken.'

Zeelandic, however, does not cross a border. East Flemish, on the other hand, does so I have changed the text accordingly. Collideascope (talk) 20:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Dutch Low Saxon discusses the question, whether this is a valid category. It stops at the border. However, there is a frwquent tendency to group Gronings with varieties in Germany and the rest with other ones in Germany. Sarcelles (talk) 20:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Groups of dialects

http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf is a scientfic study. It has the following groups, which should -apart from the Frisian varieties- entered into the article, but changed formally.

Frisian, doesn't fit into the article
Frisian mixed varieties, imho doesn't fit into the article either
Groningen
Overijssel, also including large parts of Gelderland
Southwest Limburg, Belgium only
Brabant, also including most of Antwerp Province
Central Dutch varieties, nearly entire Holland and Utrecht Province, as well as large parts of North Brabant and Gelderland
Urk
East Flanders
West Flanders, up to France
Zeeland
Limburg, also nearly all of North Limburg. This part of North Limburg has a long border with Germany. For the most part, the places on the German side of this part of the border are in the Kleverlandish dialect area. The term

Limburgish would therefore be too narrow. I therefore suggest using the term Meuse-Rhenish.

Northeast Luik, including Kerkrade and Eupen, could also be given as Southeast Limburgish.

Sarcelles (talk) 06:11, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

The general pattern with studies is to have Southwest Limburg within Limburgish. Furthermore, above study doesn't include Germany. The reference on Ripuarian dialects given below has Ripuarian-Low Franconian transition area without North Bergish area and

North Bergish area, usually seen as Limburgish. However, it only includes Germany. Dialektologie. 2. Halbband Werner Besch, Ulrich Knoop, Wolfgang Putschke, Herbert E. Wiegand Walter de Gruyter, 2008 p. 858/859 has Ripuarian as to include

Nördliche Eifel
Mittleres Erft- und Rurgebiet
Aachener Land
Bergisches Land
Ripuarisch-niederfränkisches Übergangsgebiet ohne nordbergischen Raum
Nordbergischer Raum

Sarcelles (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf has the following places as having Frisian mixed varieties classified as town Frisian varieties, the other Frisian mixed varieties being stellingweerfs:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240956524_To_What_Extent_are_Surnames_Words_Comparing_Geographic_Patterns_of_Surname_and_Dialect_Variation_in_the_Netherlands There are two dialect maps of the Netherlands, labelled 4 and 5. 4 has the following clusters: Low Saxon, Friso-Saxon, Low Franconian, Central Gelderland, Zeeland, Low Franconian as well as the three, remote, quite neighbouring clusters Frisian, Franco-Frisian and Archaic Frisisan (in Hindeloopen, Schiermonnikoog and Terschelling) 5 has Limburg North of Venlo as a separate dialect area.

Clustering in this article includes the following possible categories not mentioned hitherto:

Zeeland and Central Gelderland. Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt can be grouped together.

Leeuwarden and possibly Sneek can be grouped together. Dokkum, Stavoren, Kollum and possibly Heerenveen can have single varieties.

The varieties in the Netherlands can be grouped into a major Low Franconian group, the one around Almere and the rest. Limburg is divided into a small area around Weert, a large area until Venlo and an area North of this. There is another major group: Low Saxon divided into three areas. Urk is separate. Friesland hosts many of the varieties obtained. They can be divided into

Frisian, archaic Frisian (Hindeloopen, Schiermonnikoog and Terschelling island),

Friso-Franconian varieties (Frisian cities, Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt) and Friso-Saxon (in Stellingwerf and variously also Westerkwartier).

Possible clustering includes the following possible categories not mentioned hitherto:

Zeeland and Central Gelderland.

Midsland, Ameland island and Het Bildt can be grouped together. Leeuwarden and possibly Sneek can be grouped together. Dokkum, Stavoren, Kollum and possibly Heerenveen can have single varieties. ^[1] has the following views: Bildts, Midslands, Stadsfries, and Amelands can be grouped with Frisian varieties of Friesland. The closest cluster to this cluster is that formed by Westerkwartier and Stellingwerf. Hollandic, Zeelandic and West-Veluws can be grouped as Centraal westelijke dialecten. Among those, not only Hollandic borders to Centraal zuidelijke dialecten, which encompasses Brabantic and parts of Northern Dutch Limburg and Northern Belgium Limburg. The group, but not Hollandic, borders to non-Groningian Low Saxon and Flemish dialects. The dialect of Urk is closest to the group. The clusters grouping with the group including Hollandic are: Zuidwest-Limburg and Centraal zuidelijke dialecten as well as Tienen.

As cited in http://www.wjheeringa.nl/papers/drie02.pdf, Cor & Geer Hoppenbrouwers, De indeling van de Nederlandse streektalen: Dialecten van 156 steden en dorpen geklasseerd volgens de FFM, 2001, used feature-frequency method:

1. Nedersaksisch 1.1 GRONINGS EN NOORD-DRENTS, MIDDEN-DRENTS EN WESTERWOLDS, TWENTS 1.2 Zuid-Drents en Noord-Overijssels, Terrassen naar de Twentse kern 2. Fries 2.1 Fries 2.1.1 DE FRIESE DIALECTEN 2.1.2 Stadfries, Kollumerlands, Bildts, Stellingwerfs 2.2 Veluwse overgangsdialecten 3. Hollands, Noord-Brabants 3.1 Hollands 3.1.1 Noord-Hollands 3.1.2 Zuid-Hollands en Utrechts 3.2 Noord-Brabants 3.2.1 OOST-BRABANTS 3.2.2 Dialecten in het Gelders Rivierengebied, West-Brabants 4. Noord-Belgisch 4.1 CENTRAAL BRABANTS 4.2 Periferisch Brabants 4.2.1 Zeeuws 4.2.2 Brabants 4.3 Periferisch Vlaams 4.4 CENTRAAL VLAAMS 5 Limburgs

Nicoline van der Sijs (ed.): Dialectatlas van het Nederlands Amsterdam: Bakker, 2011, p. 60 has the following clusters for Flanders and the Netherlands:

Ripuarisch, Gent, Ronse
Fries: Frisian with Heeringa
Nedersaksisch: Overijssel and Groningen, both of those with Heeringa
Vlaams: East Flanders, West Flanders and Southern fringe of Zeeland (all of those Heeringa)
Brabants en Antwerps: Brabant of Heeringa, but limited to Belgium
Limburgs: South-West Limburg and Limburg, both of Heeringa, but excluding Limburg parallel to the latitude of Helmond
Hollandse Mengdialecten Other language islands including Zutphen, Watervliet, Burum, Zalk

and Utrecht respectively are within Hollandse Mengdialecten. The other language island is around Gouda and Woerden. From Grijpskerk, a belt is running to Amsterdam, shortly interrupted.

Hollands en Noord-Brabants The remainder.

Sarcelles (talk) 10:15, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Did I get the reading of figure 5 mentioned above right?

Sarcelles (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Is Hollandse Mengdialecten a real category or only a comparing collective category?

http://www.wjheeringa.nl/thesis/thesis09.pdf has Hollandic as one of dozens units on the same echelon. Cor & Geer Hoppenbrouwers, De indeling van de Nederlandse streektalen: Dialecten van 156 steden en dorpen geklasseerd volgens de FFM, 2001 has far less units for this. Sarcelles (talk) 21:23, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

What is spoken in the Central Dutch dialect area apart from Hollandic, North Brabantian, Kleverlandish? The remainder is possibly North Limburgish South of Kleverlandish as well as the variety in Central Gelderland North of Kleverlandish.

Sarcelles (talk) 08:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Franco-Frisian and Friso-Saxon are designations used above. In other contexts, these are doubtful categories with a wider meaning. Which better words should be used to designate those as defined like above? Sarcelles (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

https://kups.ub.uni-koeln.de/10750/1/regionalHistoryofDutch.pdf is a further reference. Sarcelles (talk) 07:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

References

[1]
https://www.academia.edu/3130916/De_analyse_van_taalvariatie_in_het_Nederlandse_dialectgebied_methoden_en_resultaten_op_basis_van_lexicon_en_uitspraaken