Talk:Flagship university

I'm trying to clarify whether being a flagship university is like being the president of a company, i.e. an unambiguous position that's a fact, or whether it's like being the leading company in an industry, i.e. something subjective that should probably be reported as opinion rather than fact. What exactly does "flagship university" mean?

If "flagship university" is a subjective thing, like the leading company in an industry, then I think pages for individual universities should not assert that they are flagship universities. They might say they are considered to be flagship universities, or something (whatever can be supported by the sources). If it's an objective fact, like being the president of a company, that needs to be explained better on this page and sources supporting that need to be found. I think it may be that it is or was sometimes objective, but that the term is also used subjectively, so that we need to be careful and not just state that a university is a flagship university; instead, we can say that it has been referred to as a flagship university by (whatever source).

This came out of a discussion at Talk:University of Maine, but I think it's better for the discussion to be here, since it really applies to many pages about individual universities.

Here are some results from a Google Books search.

• Everyone throws around terms like e 'tier-one,' 'flagship,' and I don't think we know what those are," said Sen. Robert Duncan, R-Lubbock. "'Flagship' is often just a marketing tool, and 'tier-one' means something different to everyone ... This bill says, 'This is what we want you to look like to be a national research university.'" The Daily Texan Senate hears proposals for more tier-one schools Mohini Madgavkar Daily Texan Staff Published: Thursday, March 26, 2009
• Google book page: Higher Education in the United States: An Encyclopedia By James J. F. Forest, Kevin Kinser Published by ABC-CLIO, 2002 ISBN 1576072487, 9781576072486 p. 576 "At the apex of the state system sites the flagship university. The flagship university is the most visible, best-funded and most prestigious public institution in the state. ..."
• Google book snippet "The university within each state that had the highest classification was designated as a flagship university. If more than one university received the" Minorities in American higher education By Alexander W. Astin Published by Jossey-Bass, 1982 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Nov 4, 2008 ISBN 0875895239, 9780875895239 (Could be for a particular scientific study??)
• Google book page that goes on about flagship u. in terms of texas u. "A flagship university often is regarded as one of the oldest..."
• Google book page Funding a college education: finding the right school for your child and the right fit for your budget By Alice Drum, Richard Kneedler Contributor Richard Kneedler Published by Harvard Business Press, 1996 ISBN 0875846289, 9780875846286 p. 68 "Every state has its flagship university or universities, that is, the principle state university (or universities)."
• Google book snippet "Some states, depending on how their state system evolved, may have more than one flagship university. Indiana, for example, has both the University of " The Higher education--economic development connection: emerging roles for public colleges and universities in a changing economy By SRI International. Public Policy Center, American Association of State Colleges and Universities Published by American Association of State Colleges and Universities under a cooperative agreement with Economic Development Administration, U.S. Dept. of Commerce, 1986 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Nov 3, 2008 ISBN 0880440767, 9780880440769
• Google book page p. 64 "By codifying the self-regulating authority of universities in the constitution, state constitutional conventions elevated the status of the flagship university to that of a "fourth branch of government" with authority co-ordinate to that of the legislature, the judiciary, and the executive ... Michigan was the first state to grant its flagship institution, the University of Michigan, constitutional standing, in 1850." Higher Education By John C. Smart, William G. Tierney Kluwer academic publishers Higher Education: Handbook of Theory and Research By John C. Smart, William G. Tierney Published by Springer, 2003 ISBN 1402012322, 9781402012327
• Google book page p. 68 "... because the institution has long been regarded as the state's flagship university". (UGA) State Governments and Research Universities: A Framework for a Renewed Partnership By David J. Weerts Edition: illustrated Published by Routledge, 2002 ISBN 0415932475, 9780415932479 127 pages
• Google book page (returning the term "flagship" to the navy)
• Google book page p. 2426 "designated as the state's flagship university, Maryland ..." Peterson's Four-Year Colleges By Peterson's Edition: 38, illustrated Published by Peterson's, 2007 ISBN 0768924006, 9780768924008 3144 pages
• Google book page"The University of Michigan enjoys a reputation within Michigan as the state's flagship university. p. 162 Public and Private Financing of Higher Education: Shaping Public Policy for the Future By Patrick M. Callan Published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 1997 ISBN 1573565555, 9781573565554
• Google book page; political capital and U. of Michigan
• Google book page flagship U. of church
• Google book snippet "217 Recognizing James Madison University as the flagship institution commemorating the bicentennial of the United States Constitution. ..." Virginia acts of the General Assembly By Virginia Published by Commonwealth of Virginia, Division of Purchases and Supply, 1987 Item notes: v. 2
• Google book page p. 147 "The University of California chose the model of multiple 'flagship' campuses instead of the standard one 'flagship', and six UC campuses by 2000 were members of the Association of American Universities; no other state haed more than two public campuses as members, and the balance had only one." The Gold and the Blue: A personal memoir of the University of California, 1949-1967 By Clark Kerr, Marian L. Gade, Maureen Kawaoka Edition: illustrated Published by University of California Press, 2001 ISBN 0520223675, 9780520223677

☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:59, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

It is subjective and should be reported as opinion, rather than as fact. It is also somewhat pretentious and offensive to those who do not make the claim.

According to Robert Berdahl, former University of California, Berkeley chancellor,

...those of us in "systems" of higher education are frequently actively discouraged from using the term "flagship" to refer to our campuses because it is seen as hurtful to the self-esteem of colleagues at other institutions in our systems. The use of the term is seen by some as elitist and boastful. It is viewed by many, in the context of the politics of higher education, as "politically incorrect." ... Only in the safe company of alumni is one permitted to use the term. ^[1]

[Emphasis added] Mervyn Emrys (talk) 13:56, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

See WP:WEASEL for Wikipedia guidelines on "some think that". In any case, if a university system wants to designate one of their campuses as the flagship, what's the big deal?--SarekOfVulcanExtra (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Then if it is not merged or deleted, this article should be retitled as "List of Universities designated by the pertinent university system as flagship(s)", because that is the most it can be. There is no objective, meaningful definition of "flagship university" that permits a third party to ascertain whether or not a particular school is, or isn't, should or shouldn't be, a "flagship". They're not always the oldest, or with the largest enrollment, or the ones with the largest budgets. Sometimes there are more than one (see Michigan). We can, I suppose, agree on a very specific, quantifiable definition and then make a list (it would need to be something better than "someone somewhere in the state educational system said so") but I can't imagine that would be any kind of useful Wikipedia article. Finally, this concept is just a meaningless jumble of stuff, completely un-useful as an encyclopedia article *except* perhaps to illustrate that, in fact, the definition of "flagship university" is a meaningless jumble. JohnInDC (talk) 19:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I said all of this about as well as I'm ever going to a year ago and further up the page, here. I can't for the life of me see how this subject warrants a separate article any longer. JohnInDC (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree. But the problem is the many other articles in Wikipedia about universities where the claim is made as fact that such and such a university "is the flagship university" of some system, without attribution of the claim. See University of Maine article, for example. If the claim is made, it should be attributed to a reliable source in the text. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 22:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad example, Mervyn, because it is attributed to a reliable source.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I now appreciate that much of the foregoing back-and-forth is an outgrowth of another discussion at the University of Maine talk page. For the record, I think it's fine if the University of Maine system wants to designate the University of Maine campus located at Orono as the system's "flagship". The state can do what it wants. But of course so can Texas (two flagships - Texas, and Texas A&M) or Michigan (four flagships, or maybe three depending on what article you read). A state's flagship or flagships can be whatever the state says it is / they are. That's useful information for a page about the University of Maine, or Texas, or Western Michigan University - but it's just about worthless for this page, which purports to describe what the term *means*. No one knows, of course, what criteria these or any other states used to determine which of their many schools were the flagship(s) - it could be anything. And if the term can mean anything, then it's impossible to define. Viz. Humpty-Dumpty: "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." JohnInDC (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Good example, Sarek, because (contrary to your statement above) the statement at the University of Maine article is NOT prose-attributed as recommended in WP:NPOV, and by User:Coppertwig there. Nor is it prose-attributed in any other Wikipedia article where the claim is made, to the best of my knowledge. In effect, Sarek's position seems to be that POV pushing is ok when its him on his favored page.

The following four paragraphs quote from WP:NPOV. The first sentence of the University of Maine article, for example, does NOT conform to this standard. Neither do the others which fail to prose-attribute the statement without a reliable source, but falsely treat it as a statement of fact. Sarek, knows this, but is just playing with words to confuse the issue.

"The neutral point of view is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints. Articles should provide background on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular; detailed articles might also contain evaluations of each viewpoint, but must studiously refrain from taking sides."

"When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For instance, rather than asserting that "The Beatles were the greatest band ever", locate a source such as Rolling Stone magazine and say: "Rolling Stone said that the Beatles were the greatest band ever", and include a reference to the issue in which that statement was made. Likewise, the statement "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band ever" can be made if it can be supported by references to a particular survey; a claim such as "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart" can also be made, because it is verifiable as fact. The first statement asserts a personal opinion; the second asserts the fact that an opinion exists and attributes it to reliable sources. [The second statement is appropriate for Wikipedia]."

"Sometimes, a potentially biased statement can be reframed into a neutral statement by attributing or substantiating it. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true."

"Where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article. The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view."

Consequently, ALL such statements, unless prose-attributed in the article with a reliable source, appear to be nothing more than POV pushing. Yet, I guess little more can be expected from alumni and employees with emotional attachments to these institutions. They apparently care more about their emotional attachments than they care for Wikipedia policies. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 02:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's much question that the University of Maine System has designated that campus the "flagship", is there? We might take issue with whether the designation has any value, whether the notion has any actual content or meaning - or whether instead it's just a bunch of puffery, a self-awarded title that stands for nothing. All that's fair game, and as I've said here, it's why I think this particular article is pointless. But if a system wants to designate a flagship, and it does so (as Maine appears to have done for the main campus of the university) then it's fair to report that essentially meaningless fact in the article about the school. It's not a *whole* lot different, I think, than listing each year's Golden Globe winners! JohnInDC (talk) 03:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's fine to say something like "the state of Maine has designated the University of Maine as its flagship university," if that's a verifiable fact. I think it's not OK to say simply "The University of Maine is a flagship university," as that may be somewhat meaningless or a matter of opinion. If being a flagship university is an objective fact, then there should be a specific, objective definition of it on this page (attributable to reliable sources); otherwise, apparently the definition may vary and it may be a matter of opinion. According to NPOV, we don't assert opinions as if they're facts. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

There is an RfC on this question at Talk:University of Maine#Flagship RFC ☺Coppertwig (talk)

It has not yet been verified. The only attribution provided is to a slogan on a home page, not to a document designating it as a "flagship." It needs prose attribution and a reliable source.Mervyn Emrys (talk) 19:26, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

That would be a primary source from a well-respected University. I would say it is reliable, but not verifiable. We should have something that backs it up. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

To clarify, the assertion is on the home page of the Maine University System, to which maine.edu directs. It's not the statement of the subject school. JohnInDC (talk) 11:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

On a related topic, I think the problem with the term "flagship" is that it isn't consistently defined between states (countries too?). Therefore, I feel applying a blanket "we should/shouldn't use the term 'flagship' with Universities" is inappropriate. I'm from Texas and we have two flagship Universities (designated by the state, not the schools): Texas A&M and that overglorified junior college in Austin (I'm just teasing...all part of a friendly rivalry). It has more to do with the funding and priorities of the state than anything . I don't know how other states do it, but for Texas universities, it's pretty well-defined. I feel we should probably stick to just what each state calls their schools. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

As another Texan affiliated with the University of Houston, I'd have to disagree with you. The term "flagship" is also very much applicable to the state systems. There's a large difference in the type of university that the University of Houston is versus another University of Houston System university such as the University of Houston–Victoria. That difference is denoted by the term flagship by university administration just as well. Brianreading (talk) 03:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

As someone not in the US, this discussion seems to be based on a specific US usage of the word flagship in relation to places of higher education, where in some cases it appears to relate to a designation by some higher authority (state, educational authority etc) that the institution in question has some kind of priority in terms of funding, standards or some similar. In the UK, the government designates certain local authorities or departments thereof, educational institutions or parts thereof, or public health facilites as "Beacons" or "having Beacon status", which is very specific. Other establishments are free to describe themselves as "beacons", but they do not have this legislative accreditation.

Surely the issue here is whether we are describing an accreditation by a higher authority, a funding authority, and awards authority or similar, or whether the situation is merely that The University of Sales has said that the Acme College of Cold Calling is it's flagship college, which is no different to saying "its primary college" or "its leading college". The words all have the same meaning, or lack of meaning. So an article should say "The Minister for Sales has awarded Flagship status to ACCC" at the top, or in the body it may say "UoS describes ACCC as its flagship college".Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Or in example one say "ACCC is a Flagship college" with footnoted verification. Example two should never say "ACCC is a Flagship college", because it isn't, it's just UoS's flagship college.Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's both a (semi-) formal designation and a colloquial label. It also only applies in the case of state-chartered and funded colleges and universities (as I think the definition makes clear), which takes the University of Sales and Acme College problem out of the equation. The "designation" cases are easy, because pretty much by definition the only entities with authority to bestow the label are state agencies of one or another type. Colloquial usage is trickier (even where no one is really likely to disagree), and the simplest solution there is probably to phrase the statement a little differently ("X school is widely regarded as the flagship . . . ") with sources. JohnInDC (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

If it can be used as a formal or semi formal designation, then that should be the one that is acceptable. The rest is "advertising puff" to use a marvellous old legal term, unless there's good evidence that it is widely regarded as 'a flagship' by its peers.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

But it may *not* be "puff". That's the problem. It may be that a school is, in fact, generally regarded as the 'flagship' of a system even though it has never been designated as such. For example. While the State of Michigan appears to think it has three, maybe four "flagship" schools in the state, within the narrower subset of the University of Michigan system, the campus at Ann Arbor is the flagship. The other campuses are smaller, younger and receive substantially less funding. If an article about the University of Michigan described the Ann Arbor campus as "the flagship campus" it would be a simple, uncontroversial, un-puffed statement of an obvious truth. Of course you'd like to see that sourced - because we source everything here - but the fact that it was never "designated" as such is meaningless to the statement. It is just as true either way.

Of course now that I re-read your comment, you seem to be saying the same thing. "Use the formal or semi-formal designation unless the school is widely regarded by peers as a flagship". That's pretty much what I mean. JohnInDC (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Yup, I think we got to the same page. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:47, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

If the article on the University of Maine said something like "X school is widely regarded as the flagship . . . " with reliable sources (as proposed above), that would be acceptable prose attribution. It does not. It merely asserts the school "IS the flagship" university. If that article was consistent with this discussion, the matter would be settled. Unfortunately, proponents of the school resist such a simple and easy solution to this problem, thereby pushing thier own POV. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 00:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

You really have to love the way that citations have been provided showing UMaine calling itself the flagship, the University of Maine System referring to UMaine as its flagship, and the State of Maine referring to UMaine as the state's flagship university, but we're the ones pushing a POV. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Merely providing a reference to an involved party does not guarantee NPOV. It is the manner in which the issue is addressed that provided NPOV, and this article falls short, landing squarely in the realm of mere puffery. It doesn't have to be that way, but that appears to by the preference of some. Well, if puffery is what you want, puffery is what you have. There is is, for all the world to see. Enjoy. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 21:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Below I have listed the respective flagship universities of each state. The source is College Board and an annual survey of colleges. College board has been putting out this type list comparing flagship prices for many years now, and it just got updated for the 16-17 year.

I will also include some other sources like from the US Department of Education - ERIC which lists each state flagship, recognized by the United States Government- https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED495096

And from the Washington Higher Education Coordinating Board (government report) - http://www.wsac.wa.gov/sites/default/files/TuitionandFees2009-10Report-Final.pdf

List below copied from https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/tuition-fees-flagship-universities-over-time

University of Alaska Fairbanks AK
University of Alabama AL
University of Arkansas AR
University of Arizona AZ
University of California: Berkeley CA
University of Colorado at Boulder CO
University of Connecticut CT
University of Delaware DE
University of Florida FL
University of Georgia GA
University of Hawaii at Manoa HI
University of Iowa IA
University of Idaho ID
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign IL
Indiana University Bloomington IN
University of Kansas KS
University of Kentucky KY
Louisiana State University and Agricultural and Mechanical College LA
University of Massachusetts Amherst MA
University of Maryland: College Park MD
University of Maine ME
University of Michigan MI
University of Minnesota: Twin Cities MN
University of Missouri: Columbia MO
University of Mississippi MS
University of Montana MT
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill NC
University of North Dakota ND
University of Nebraska - Lincoln NE
University of New Hampshire NH
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey: New Brunswick/Piscataway Campus NJ
University of New Mexico NM
University of Nevada: Reno NV
State University of New York at Buffalo NY
Ohio State University: Columbus Campus OH
University of Oklahoma OK
University of Oregon OR
Penn State University Park PA
University of Rhode Island RI
University of South Carolina SC
University of South Dakota SD
University of Tennessee: Knoxville TN
University of Texas at Austin TX
University of Utah UT
University of Virginia VA
University of Vermont VT
University of Washington WA
University of Wisconsin-Madison WI
West Virginia University WV
University of Wyoming WY

AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 23:53, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

It appears a university can be designated a Wikipedia flagship university provided any of the following conditions are met:

• Included in a list of published flagship universities - College Board, USA Today, Princeton Review, S&P, Jack Kent Cooke Foundation, etc.
• Self-identification as a flagship university by the university
• Federal or state designation as a flagship university
• Determined effort by an alumnus usually sourcing a published list

Not being included in the College Board list of 50 flagship universities does not preclude being designated as a Wikipedia flagship university. For instance, the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation lists 92 universities including three in Pennsylvania - Penn State, Pitt and Temple. While Temple may be a surprise to the good folks in Pennsylvania (and probably to more than few Temple alums!), it does meet one of the criteria. Sandcherry (talk) 01:51, 2 January 2018 (UTC)