Talk:Free software
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Control over the Software and the computer.
This article almost completly ignores the question of the control by the user. Though this notion must be criticaly important to free software, since the free software definition by the fsf says:
Roughly, the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them. When users don't control the program, the program controls the users. The developer controls the program, and through it controls the users. This nonfree or “proprietary” program is therefore an instrument of unjust power.
I'm not one hundred percent fluent in english, so I would not modify the article on my own for now. But I think, the article needs seriously to include this notion of control,to be accurate. --Pparent (talk) 11:00, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Length of See also
I am considering shrinking the size of the See also section by only linking to one list of software projects. The one I think we should keep is List of free and open source software packages, and thus remove List of formerly proprietary software, List of free software project directories and List of free software for Web 2.0 Services. What are other people's thoughts on this? Belorn (talk) 16:25, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- You could alternatively make a list of lists perhaps? That would tidy up the see also section. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- This See Also section is not too long, though I'm about to move the lists to a sub-section. Providing the reader with access to all the lists is important for an encyclopedia. Lentower (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- A few of the entries in that "See Also" list appear to be already present in the article. I'll go through and see which links in the section duplicate wikilinks already in the body of the article and remove these per WP:SEEALSO. - SudoGhost 18:21, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- This See Also section is not too long, though I'm about to move the lists to a sub-section. Providing the reader with access to all the lists is important for an encyclopedia. Lentower (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
- Now that I think of it. Should Portal:Free software be added to the see also list? Belorn (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I added "*Category:Free software lists and comparisons" to the Lists sub-section. This is roughly the same as IRWolfie-'s idea of a Lists of lists about free software.
It might be possible to get a list of the lists added to the Portal, too. Lentower (talk) 03:27, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
incompatible with many familiar legal arrangements
I find the following sentence bordering on pejorative:
- "Although the terms of free software are incompatible with many familiar legal arrangements by which developers are paid, they may still seek compensation by other routes that are compatible."
Would it make sense to reword it to something like:
- Rather than selling the software itself (or permission to use it) to earn a living, developers of free software typically do so by offering professional services such as software development (e.g. custom extensions, adapting and improving the software), support, training and consultancy.
Reason: there is a subtle implication that free software developers are working outside of or on the fringes of the law. The terms of free software are also compatible "with many familiar legal arrangements by which developers are paid". In the former wording "many" could be changed to "some of the". The latter wording takes the reader a little further by mentioning the sorts of services that free software developers might offer to earn a living. - Kim Tucker (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
- Not outside "the law," which is an utterly absurd reading, but absolutely outside of dependence on intellectual property law, because Stallman considers it repugnant. The sort of detail you propose is already discussed in the body of the article; the passage in the introduction is for the sake of getting the "freedom vs. price" distinction out of the way before moving on to details. 2001:558:6045:1D:56E:DCCB:ED9D:24EA (talk) 05:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- This really needs improvement. Because Free Software it's not about how programmers get paid. And it's certainly not about "intellectual property" (which is flimsy term anyway, that lumps together unrelated legal aspects; and is often used to manipulate by intentional blurring it incurrs). To put the aspect of programmer compensation into the intro of the article Free Software, is thus a focussing on side-issues, where these are not appropriate: Thus is a violation of the recommendations of Wikipedia:Lead_section. Hnfiurgds (talk) 20:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- A way to mention "money-aspects" of free software, is to say it like it is. Hnfiurgds (talk) 21:08, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- This really needs improvement. Because Free Software it's not about how programmers get paid. And it's certainly not about "intellectual property" (which is flimsy term anyway, that lumps together unrelated legal aspects; and is often used to manipulate by intentional blurring it incurrs). To put the aspect of programmer compensation into the intro of the article Free Software, is thus a focussing on side-issues, where these are not appropriate: Thus is a violation of the recommendations of Wikipedia:Lead_section. Hnfiurgds (talk) 20:03, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Revert of Intro
I'm going to explain why these changes are reverted: The reverted intro mentioned "legal rights to source code, that the software's creators have". Well Free Software is not at all about this: Any legal rights can be changed by politics; they are not set in stone. Free Software is about Freedoms of the users, and not about giving them what you believe legal rights of "creators" or authors to be, or what politics will legislate these rights to be. The reverted intro mentioned "These rights are granted independently of whether the author receives any payment for creating the software." Well: the original author still has control how she wishes to distribute the software. She can give it away gratis of request some payment. But the point is: If it really is free software, then she can not stop any users of the software from redistributing it (for gratis or for a fee): She cannot dictate to them how to use it, or with whom to cooperate. The reverted intro mentioned "Although the terms of free software are incompatible with developer compensation arrangements based on intellectual property law, developers may still seek compensation through other arrangements that are compatible." Intellectual property law can be: copyright, trademarkts, patents. What are you talking about? Well let's assume it is in fact any of the 3. None have any terms whatsoever about programmer compensation. Example: copyright only says what can and cannot be done, by someone who receives the work. It has no influence on what fee the author asks in order for someone to receive the work. Furthermore: a lot of free software licences (e.g. GNU GPL) are actually based on copyright law, and thus have real legal leverage. So a lot of free software makes use of copyright fundamentally and then grants very specific exceptions to it, but only if these exceptions protect the user's freedoms. It's still very much copyrighted, and can be distributed for a fee or not. So the quoted reverted sentence had errors regarding "compensation arrangements based on intellectual property law"... What does free software say about compensation: Basically nothing much. It's a side issue: Anyone who has received free software can distribute/redistribute it for any fee, or gratis. You can even choose to re/distribute it to a potential new user, only if you are given 30 bottles of some vintage Schnapps! Or you can choose not to re/distribute it at all. So it's absolutely up to the user, who thus has freedom. Hnfiurgds (talk) 20:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- Here's a way to mention "money aspects" of free software: "users are free – which includes the freedom to redistribute the software, which can be done gratis or for a fee". Hnfiurgds (talk) 21:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
You complain that FS is not "about" extending legal rights. I never said it was. Extending these legal rights is, however, the means through which freedom is guaranteed, and that is what my text said. I think that is more helpful to people approaching the subject because it is concrete, as opposed to talking about "software that respects this-or-that" and "putting users first." How is a newcomer supposed to make sense of these phrases? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an agitprop session.
You go on to ask "what I'm talking about" with regard to intellectual property law. Well, I'm citing Stallman, and he's talking about copyright, although he loathes the other stuff as well. So if you want to change to copyright that's fine with regard to the source. However there were points in the history of software licensing when companies considered relying on other forms of intellectual property (e.g. trademark in the case of Java) so why not keep it general? It is no secret that software companies rely on IP law to enforce their software fee structure. Stallman knows it, and I would hope that you do as well, but that isn't required because I'm citing Stallman. Again, this is not an agitprop session. It is an encyclopedia for the purpose of explaining concepts by reference to sources. 2001:558:6045:1D:56E:DCCB:ED9D:24EA (talk) 21:49, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Free Software is not defined by "open availability"
- Revert. Why? Because the version is not accurate and has numerous errors. Example: "Free software [...] is software provided under terms that guarantee the freedom of all computer users (individually or in groups) to obtain it, [...]" This is wrong. Hence please don't edit an article about whose subject matter you do not know enough about. It's wrong since you do NOT every computer user has the freedom to obtain it. In contrast: only if have you obtained it, are you granted the freedoms which free software guarantees. Thus your assertion in the very first sentence is BLATENTLY WRONG. Of course: usually it is possible for everyone to receive copies, since they are provided via anonymous download. Why is it thus free software? Not because of the availablility. NO. But instead, because if you obtain it, you obtain with it freedoms to redistribute it, modify it, etc. Other errors regarding compensation (and they way it is phrased) were already mentioned previously. Hnfiurgds (talk) 04:57, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I have made another attempt to address my concerns about the opening sentences. I hope you will review it with the usual good faith assumption and respond. 2001:558:6045:1D:56E:DCCB:ED9D:24EA (talk) 05:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Free software development
Following a discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 May 31#Free software development, Free software development now redirects to this article. In the discussion it was suggested that a section on development may be appropriate to this article, and that if one is written the redirect should be refined to point to that section. This note is just so you are aware of the suggestion and can consider it. Thryduulf (talk) 10:44, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
