Talk:Geoff Marshall

Could someone explain why there's any question about these? @Rhlon: --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not finding much: --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

^[1][2][3]

• Vicki Pipe m. 2018^[4][5][6]

I don't wish to start an editing war (well... it's already started really) but I think that Geoff's word on his blog that he married Leigh, and (if you read THE COMMENTS on the Facebook reference I added), Vicki says they got married in May 2018. Surely common sense must prevail...? IamMattDavies (talk)< —Preceding undated comment added 15:07, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Is any of the information in dispute? If so, why?

All I'm seeing so far is the quality of the references. This appears to be a WP:BLPSPS situation, where it does not involve claims about third parties may apply.

I think the sources are ok for his marriage to Pipe for inclusion in the article, though better sources are preferable.

In the case of his marriage to Leigh Webber, I could not find any sources from her or an independent publisher, so I left that information out. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 19:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Rhlon: Please explain --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I'll jump in and ask a related question: there is no doubt that he is married to Pipe. Is there anywhere at all any kind of actual source for the year on which they were married? That actually states this, rather than being inferred from a photograph?

Now, back to this: again: the chances are we know roughly how old Marshall is, but is there any specific source that actually states his birthdate? Again, rather than something implied?

And then: are any of these sources not self-published in any way?

Tbh, we'd be better with these things being blanked. This is a BLP after all. Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

There's no doubt he's married to Pipe, but there's no reliable citation as to when it happened. A Facebook photo from a wedding does not specify it as their wedding is not reliable. With regard his age 'Famous Birthday' has always correctly listed his birthday at 16 August 1973 as far as I'm aware

Rhlon (talk) 10:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Rhlon - if you looked at the comments, Vicki tells you they got married in May... IamMattDavies (talk) 15:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Which resolves the reliable, third-party source requirement for BLPs how exactly? Blue Square Thing (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I am very much aware that self-published sources should overall be avoided. But the 5 rules about it under Wikipedia's BLP page have been met and I see no reason to doubt it's authenticity - would you lie about being married...? IamMattDavies (talk) 18:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

There are two concerns that I have, and I started two different sections on this talk page to address them separately.

In the section above, I've asked about his spouses. In this section, I've asked about his age.

As for age, we have one source that seems fine, unless there are better sources that contradict it. No one has offered any sources for a different age, so what is the concern? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not a case of anyone lying about being married. Marshall and Pipe have very active social media presences. If they have chosen, it seems to me quite deliberately, to not publicise the date of their marriage, then why do we need to rely on synthesis from a bunch of other sources. Just put that they're married and leave it at that. It's all that is required. Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:58, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

'BlueSquareThing' has nailed this perfectly, just put that they're married and leave it at that - no more is required. The Facebook photo that user 'IamMattDavis' refers to has no comments, it is just a photo, so thus an invalid citation.

With regards the age, citation number [2] is invalid as it's not a link to anything. Not a credible citation. Citation number [3] links to a tweet that is no longer there, so also no not valid. Whereas the 'famous birthdays' website clearly lists his birthday as being the 16 August 73. (Wikipedia won't let me link to the website here, i don't know why)

Rhlon (talk) 19:50, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid you don't understand basic verification and citations. Links are not required. Working links are not required.

FamousBirthdays is such a poor and misused source that it is blacklisted. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Famous_Birthdays. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Hipal. Then what's to stop people just making up something that isn't true if you can just write anything and not provide a working link? Rhlon (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing. We assume editors are working in good faith. If there's any evidence to the contrary, then we can tag the reference for verification ({{Verify source}}). --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 21:15, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Hence why I have been editing in good faith to remove a citation that I suspect is incorrect. And so I have just orded a copy of the book for myself to check and read Page 308 and the back cover which I suspect are incorrect. Rhlon (talk) 21:29, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Then you aren't assuming good faith. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 22:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Until there is an undisputed source indicating the date of birth mentioned, and this discussion agrees that it is suitable, it's safer to err on the side of caution in a BLP article. I've removed the DOB for now.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:02, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

No one has made the slightest suggestion it's unsuitable. One editor has admitted to assuming bad faith of others.

The source is a book that's basically self-published, judging by the publisher.

Basically, the source is Marshall's own claim. It meets BLPSPS.

We have no sources that contradict it.

Why we're wasting time with this is beyond me. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 23:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

As noted above, Famous Birthdays gives a different date. Not that I'm saying that's accurate, just that doubt has been cast above and there is no consensus that the 1972 date is correct. It was originally cited to a nonexistent tweet, and a page of a book that isn't available online. So unless you can say what's on that page, and therefore demonstrate satisfactorily that the date is correct, we should err on the side of not including it.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Blacklisted references have no bearing. Assuming bad faith on the person that added the material similiarly should have no bearing. This is ridiculous. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 00:01, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Samwilson:, as far as I can find, was the first to add a birthdate . What's wrong with using that original reference? --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 00:09, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree on keeping it out until we get this settled.

I'm seeing multiple references have been added and removed for Aug 18, '72. The only one I've seen for '73 is the above, but I believe the math is wrong. I'd like someone to independently check. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 02:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Hipal: you're right, I got it wrong (maybe that's why it was removed). The quote from the video is "…in 1990 I was 18 years old — actually this week that we're filming this: today is the 15th of August [2017], it's my birthday in a couple of days time — I'd just turned 18, so it was the same week 27 years ago, in 1990 that I first came down here…". Which means the correct date is about 17 August 1972, not 1973. Although, I dunno, maybe Geoff didn't mean to tell everyone his birthday? —Sam Wilson 03:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I've reached out to Amakuru, Blue Square Thing, and Rhlon on their talk pages, and still awaiting a response from Rhlon. I've gone over the editing history looking for DOB edits, and have found no reliable reference supporting a '73 date. There's repeated indication that a BBC reference gives his age. It would be extremely helpful if we could find it. Meanwhile, I think it best to keep it out. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

After a careful review of the editing history (diffs below), I think '72 is fine attributed to him from any of the many times he's done so. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

There are actually two BBC references that give his age: Exhibit A (32 on 29 September 2004, referenced in LU station visit records) and Exhibit B (33 on 25 August 2005, referenced in the 7/7 paragraph). Combined with this Guardian article (referenced in the top line), this would make the year of birth '72. Tvcameraop (talk) 09:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. If there are no further concerns, let's put it back in. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced that we need a dob in this article. It's a BLP - we should have really reliable independent sources before we put this sort of thing in. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

We have them. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Do we? I thought we were putting things together from a variety of hints, social media posts and then doing some maths to work out a year. Rather than a WP:RS. I may be wrong, but that was my reading of things. It's also unnecessary. Blue Square Thing (talk) 18:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Tvcameraop just above gives three that verify his age at specific dates. We have multiple from Marshall giving the day and month. There's no problem that I can see. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:56, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• 22:25, 11 March 2020 - cat to '73 - (aeropagitica)
• 06:13, 2 March 2020 - to '73 - Blue Square Thing
• 01:28, 2 March 2020 - to '72 - sole edit of ip
• 07:07, 5 October 2019 - to '72 + wife/spouse - sole edit of blocked ip
• 8:35, 21 August 2019 - to '73 - Blue Square Thing
• 18:15, 21 August 2019 - to '72 - sole edit of ip
• 19:18, 18 March 2019 - to '73 - ref removed - Rhlon
• 18:27, 16 March 2019 - to '72 - ref added 82.22.254.70
• 15:55, 12 March 2019 - to '73 - blocked ip
• 12:36, 3 February 2019 - Aug 18 from Jan 21 - 82.22.254.70
• 11:05, 25 January 2019 - to Jan 21 '72 - 82.22.254.70
• 01:43, 25 January 2019 - to Jan 21 - CoolSkittle
• 09:05, 20 September 2018 - to 8/17/73- Mbssbs
• 19:00, 17 April 2018 - removed - Lazz R
• 04:21, 14 April 2018 - to '72 day (removed ref) - Meanderingbartender
• 01:27, 14 April 2018 - to '72 - ref swapped - Hipal
• 18:59, 13 April 2018 - famousbirthdays as ref - Rhlon
• 18:58, 13 April 2018 - to '73 - ref removed - Rhlon
• 15:54, 9 March 2018 - to '72 with ref - SageWater
• 20:21, 2 February 2018 - to '73, 16 - ref removed - ip
• 21:00, 26 December 2017 - to '72, 18 - ref added - Franiel272
• 12:59, 5 December 2017 - to '73, 16 - ref removed - ip
• 16:01, 8 November 2017 - to '72, 18 - ref added - Mojo87
• 13:32, 1 November 2017 - to '73, 16 - ref removed - Rhlon
• 15:54, 29 October 2017 - to '72, 18 - ref swapped - Franiel272
• 22:30, 15 October 2017 - to 16 - 82.14.115.169
• 18:29, 7 October 2017 - to 18 from c.17 - ip
• 23:39, 5 October 2017 - "c. 17 August 1973" - ref added - Samwilson

I may have missed something in all the edit-warring. If there's a problem with restoring '72, it's unclear why. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• Marshall, Geoff (3 October 2017). Choose Corrour. YouTube. Retrieved 6 October 2017.
• @geofftech (9 May 2013). "@BBC_HaveYourSay hello, yes. Londoner born on August 18th, and who did badly in school!" (Tweet). Retrieved 16 March 2019 – via Twitter.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: deprecated archival service (link)
• "FROST MARSHALL LLP - Officers (free information from Companies House)". beta.companieshouse.gov.uk.
• Geoff Marshall (2016-08-17), It's my birthday and I'll Vlog If I Want To, retrieved 2017-12-26
• Marshall Geoff, "Underground USA", page 308 and back cover.
• https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/766393750792863746 Geoff Marshall on *Twitter: "How I spent my 44th birthday: Me and 110 beautiful people, thank you all so so much. #Tubespotting"
• "Tube station visit record broken". September 29, 2004 – via news.bbc.co.uk.
• "Tube challenge for bomb charity". August 25, 2005 – via news.bbc.co.uk.
• "Meet Geoff and Vicki: The 'gorpcore' couple visiting every train station in Britain". August 12, 2017 – via www.telegraph.co.uk.

I've tried to collect all the references that have been used or suggested. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 19:51, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

As a first step, I've used the Telegraph ref for the approximate age and year of birth. . --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that's the sensible solution for this article. Tvcameraop (talk) 18:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The second step will be to add the rest. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 18:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the excessive examples template - I can't see an indication of that.

Other cleanup tags seem to be older than the May 2023 date that is on them, and could well have been dealt with as well. Newystats (talk) 10:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I tried to Google search for what this weirdly named series is about (without watching any of it) but couldn't find anything. 2A00:23EE:2410:8D1:F2C8:E301:4842:7677 (talk) 00:34, 21 June 2024 (UTC)