Talk:Iridology

LeafRed66

Definition of Iridology

The initial part of this article on Iridology provides an inaccurate description of Iridology. I also states that there is a lack of quality research studies referencing as evidence of this statement an article by E. Ernst MD PhD who is a known <redacted> and the author of countless articles seeking to discredit everything from chiropractics to aromatherapy to just about any other alternative, wellness or preventative approach to health out there. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/AJW1976/colic-folk-remedies_n_841418_82456492.html (expand the thread) It is inappropriate to have someone with such extreme views as Dr. Ernst as the sole contributor to this page. In his studies (all three studies listed on the page are in fact from Dr. Ernst's one study) Dr. Ernst uses the fact that Iridology does not diagnose disease to discredit Iridology. However, Iridologist do not disagree with that statement. They do not diagnose disease. This page, in order to provide a less biased and more complete view of Iridology must include what Iridologist's say it does. It must also include current research and not just research from the 70's and earlier.

I propose the following description of Iridology be added to this page:

Iridology (also known as iris diagnosis^[1]) is a technique whose proponents study the iris structure, iris markings, iris color, pigment markings, pupil size and shape and other characteristics of the iris to determine information about a patient's systemic health. Practitioners view combinations of iris markings and structure to determine a persons constitution, a term used by Iridologists to refer to a pattern of inherent strengths and weakness of body systems and organs that they claim predispose an individual to particular aging processes.

Iridologists also use an iris chart, developed by numerous Iridologists over the last 350 years, beginning with Phillippus Meyens ^[2]), who gave the basic understanding for the first iris chart (See History). The Iris Chart provides of map that Iridologist’s are developing, as a work in progress, to determine the location of different body organs as represented in the iris and is used, in combination with determining the individual constitutional type, to locate areas of the body that require additional support in the prevention of disease and in the aging process. ^[3] The Iris Chart was developed primarily by medical doctors who observed that their patients who shared the same diseases also shared strikingly similar iris characteristics.

Iridology has been criticized by the medical profession as a method that does not accurately diagnose disease, however Iridologists do not attempt to diagnose disease. The primary focus of Iridology is to assess system and organ strength and weakness, and the relationship between these strengths and weaknesses to the aging process, to be utilized in a pro-health vs anti-disease approach to wellness. For this reason, Iridology is primarily of interest to practitioners of natural medicine and healthy living, particularly naturopaths, nutritionists, herbalists, and natural healers, as a method (amongst several used in tangent) to guide effective personalized cleansing and rejuvenation programs ^[3] In alternative medical circles the holistic view of the body, available through iris analysis, is considered invaluable. ^[4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeafRed66 (talk • contribs) 19:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

References: all leading textbooks on Iridology

School of Natural Healing - Dr. J.R. Christopher, Nutri Books Corp, 1971

Iridology - A complete guide to iris diagnosis and related forms of treatment - Farida Sharan, Thorntons 1986

Iridology - Dorothy Hall - Keats Publishing, 1981

Practical Iridology - Peter Jackson-Main - Carroll & Brown Publishers, 2004

numerous web references can also be supplied

=== --LeafRed66 (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Reverted recent changes; removed valid references to iridology being pseudoscientific, added information from poorly formatted refs that seemed dubiously POV and apologetic in content, such as trying to explain why it shouldn't be expected to be able to diagnose a disease (why, it was never meant to!). Yobol (talk) 02:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello Yobol - it seems you have an objection to changes made on the Iridology page. Currently the Iridology page does not define Iridology accurately, using research done by Dr. Ernst, a known extremist, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/AJW1976/colic-folk-remedies_n_841418_82456492.html (expand the thread), who discredits iridology by stating that it does not diagnose disease, when in fact Iridologists to do not attempt to do so. I have listed references. All of Dr. Ernst's references are pre-1970's, thus excluding all modern research of the subject, none of which attempts to prove that Iridology diagnoses disease. Let's chat about it and see if we can resolve your issues with the changes. Thanks --LeafRed66 (talk) 02:48, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

1) Ernst is a well known and respected researcher of CAM, and citing a blog comment to personally attack his character is likely a WP:BLP violation. If I were you'd I'd redact that particular comment.

2) Saying iridology doesn't "diagnose" is hard to take seriously given an alternate name is "iridiodiagnosis" and the term means "eye diagnosis". I guess these iridology textbooks probably should change their names, as "diagnosis" is in the title of the books. Yobol (talk) 02:59, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of those examples, the book "Principles of Iris Diagnosis" (Grundlagen der irisdiagnostik) by Josef Deck is another.

@LeafRed66: You use a book written by Farida Sharan called "Iridology - A complete guide to diagnosing through the iris and to related forms of treatment" as a reference. The chapter "Acceptance of Positivity and Negativity" starts with the words: "Iridology is a diagnostic tool..." (et cetera). I oppose the changes proposed above because they will not improve the article. For example the sentence "The Iris Chart was developed...iris characteristics" is unsourced and probably not true and the sentence "Iridology has been criticized...diagnose disease." is unsourced and certainly not true. Wasbeer 04:19, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello Yobo, Iris diagnosis is a term that has been used for a couple hundred years. Iridology itself has come a long way since then. The term Iridology (the title of this wiki page) does not contain the word 'diagnosis' in it. Also the word 'diagnosis' does not have to refer to diagnosing 'disease' from the medical perspective. Cookbooks refer to diagnosing issues with recipes. The name can not be used to limit the definition of a system and a study that is surely not limited by its historical names. Next you refer to Dr. Ernst as a well known and respected researcher. His role as a researcher has been to conduct hundreds of high-conflict, poorly designed 'studies' to discredit everything alternative or preventative from chiropractics to aromatherapy. He is not an expert on Iridology in any way. All of the 'research' presented on the Iridology is from his one 'study' on the subject, which took only tiny outdated, pre-70's studies by non-professionals (he excluded serious studies from his study, which is what he is most famous for doing). He mentions three and five iridologist studies when there exist clinical studies that exceed two thousand clients. In addition, a qualified Iridologist would not participate in a study that attempts to diagnose disease as they already are quite clear on the fact that it does not. In Farida Sharan's Iridology Textbook (Iridology - A complete guide...listed above), which is the primary textbook on Iridology today, it states in the the section Iridology Does and Does Not - under what Iridology does not do she listed as number one Diagnose specific diseases (only analyses tissue changes). She goes on to state in numbers two through seven: 2. Show where operations have been performed under anesthetic. 3. Identify gallstones, kidney stones (only tissue predisposition). 4. Identify male or female, or pregnancy in the female. 5. Show presence of micro-organisms, parasites, etc. (only predisposition) 6. Cannot predict lifespan, or time of death (Europeans claim death signs) 7. Specifically identify individual drugs, poisons, or preservatives. Today, thereare too many taken in from inheritance, food preservatives, medicines, beauty products, pollution and life habits to be able to discriminate individually. - So, as the primary textbook on Iridology with current research (not pre-70's) she makes it very clear that Iridology does not diagnose disease. Of course she also states that you can not diagnose kidney stones or gall stones as well. Note the studies referenced on the Iridology page refer to the fact that Iridology can not do these things. Dr. Ernst devised a study that proves what Iridologists already say...Iridology does not diagnose disease...and then uses this study to discredit Iridology. This is not the study of an unbiased researcher. In other publications, such as the book by Peter Jackson-Main, it is also quite clear what Iridology does do, and diagnose disease is not one of them. Currently the Iridology page has been written by someone(s) who have used Dr Ernst's work without reference to real Iridologists or real iridologists study and work, thus it is a biased page that requires changing by wiki's standards. Lastly the references to the page that you state are unsourced is not the case. I put the sources on the talk page and failed to paste them onto the Iridology page. Yes they are true statements. I will correct that. --LeafRed66 (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello Yobo, Please note the dates of the books that you have provided as links to point out the use of the word diagnosis - they are all close to 100 years old. In addition, although at that time they were researching to see if Iridology could diagnose disease, the primary use of Iridology, even then, was to determine or 'diagnose' pre-disposition and the aging process. The use of the term 'diagnosis' is not relevant to correcting the inaccuracies in the Iridology page. --LeafRed66 (talk) 16:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

@LeafRed66: His or her name is Yobol, not Yobo. You are partially correct. Some supporters of iridology say iridology cannot diagnose diseases (medical diagnosis). But other supporters of iridology still claim it can be used to diagnose diseases. Not only a hundred years ago; this article was posted on the first of September 2007. This article was posted on April 2 2010. These are just some examples, I can search for more if you want me to. I think the people who support iridology and are aware of the fact that it can not and should not be used to diagnose diseases should try to explain to the people who support iridology but think it can be used to diagnose diseases that they are wrong. If those people stop making claims about being able to diagnose diseases with iridology and a reliable source writes about that then we can rewrite this article. Remember: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. Wasbeer 00:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear Wasbeer, Thank you for your notes. I did look at the two articles that you provided links for. Neither is signed by an 'author.' The first one had a title that states Iridology can diagnose disease and then does not follow up with that statement in the article. This could have been written by any mis-guided journalist, and probably was. The second article again makes a grand statement, with no verification, and no 'author.' Although it is true that there are people who will write anything and publish it on the internet, wiki is not dependent on the non-existance of misguided people in order to correct this Iridology page. Certainly editing this page does not require 'convincing' those that are not professional iridologists what Iridology does and does not do so that, once convinced, we can then correct the wiki page. Perhaps an accurate page may assist those writing articles to get their facts straight. So thank you for your points, but this does not alter the fact that the edits that I am doing on this page are accurate and should be published. --LeafRed66 (talk) 16:40, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's get to the point here: modern iridologists often times do not make specific disease diagnoses because they legally can't: that would be practicing medicine without a license, so they skirt the issue by using a bunch of scientific sounding, but largely pseudoscientific terminology such as "energy" which they can use to skirt by medical licensing laws. This, however doesn't mean they don't make general diagnoses about "nutritional deficiencies" and telling the patients which body systems or organs may be damaged, which while skirting the legal definition of making a medical dignosis, doesn't mean they aren't diagnosing something. The entire premise of iridology is to diagnose that there is something wrong with a particular part of the body based on the iris - to say iridology makes no diagnosis is to dispute the entire concept. (This, of course, completely leaves aside youre original research in claiming that this lack of diagnosis by iridology refutes the negative studies of iridology - if this were true, the iridiologists should have known not to take part in the study since they shouldn't have been able to test positive anyways). Your entire premise is based on faulty logic and poor research. Yobol (talk) 23:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello Yobol - What you have just said, in context of the discussion about changes on this page is irrelevant and in addition your tone is not cooperative and is borderline rude. The point here is to make an iridology page that accurately states what Iridologist say they do, with links and referencing, and adding legitimate criticism that is verifiable. By Wiki standards when a page presents fringe topics then both sides are to be represented. Currently the only references are circular, all leading to Dr Ernst and his one faulty study, and without representing what Iridologists themselves claim or any of the studies done by Iridologists, and books published by Iridologists, any websites by Iridologists, etc. It is EASY to see that this is an extremely biased page written by someone (perhaps yourself) who is determined to discredit Iridology and doing so without honoring the facts. You are making an argument that is not in context with the changes put forward which is 'argumentative' without being productive. For example, the term 'energy' is not part of the edits suggested, and as far as I have seen is not a part of iridology either and never has been. If your goal is to be antagonistic instead of improve the page it might be a good idea to take this matter up a notch. Your arguments do not add to the process of trying to correct the page and you also do not exhibit an understanding of what iridologists do say they do, instead only 'sound bites' designed to discredit in an off hand way. Wiki's goal is to have accurate pages. This page currently isn't. That is the bottom line. The edits suggested are accurate, and a significant improvement to the page. To suggest that my 'premise' is based on faulty logic and poor research, when your entire paragraph is riddled with faulty logic and poor research, and lacks a premise to begin with, is rather humorous. I suggest sticking to the edits at hand and leaving the insults in your imagination. --LeafRed66 (talk) 23:09, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

@Leafred66: Do you have reliable sources to back up your claims (e.g. about Ernst)? Do you have a reliable source that says that iridology is no longer used to give a medical diagnosis? Secondary or tertiary sources (metastudies) are considered more reliable, the references are not circular, please read Wikipedia:MEDRS#Respect_secondary_sources. Ernst is given due weight imho. A lot of reliable sources do mention the fact that iridology is still used to diagnose diseases and they are not a hundred years old. For example Can iridology detect susceptibility to cancer? A prospective case-controlled study. (2005), and Looking for colorectal cancer in the patients iris?. (2008). Was dr. Ernst involved in those studies? He is not listed among the authors. I think Ernst lives in the UK, both studies are German. In the end our personal opinion is irrelevant (mine, yours and Yobol's), we need reliable sources. If you can find reliable sources that contradict the article I am willing to change the article. Wasbeer 13:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, while we should definitely make clear the position of iridologists, on Wikpedia we prefer the use of secondary sources instead of primary sources. The article should be based on independent reliable sources, of which Ernst's studies clearly qualify. If you have any reliable secondary sources saying iridology doesn't make diagnoses, then bring them forward. Yobol (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yobol, You miss the point over and over again. It was not stated that Iridologists do not diagnose. There was always a classifier; they do not diagnose diseases, specific diseases, they do not make medical diagnoses or specific medical diagnoses. To say that a person has weakness in their kidney or liver is a diagnosis, although it is not medical or specific to a disease. Please get off your soapbox of all encompassing, unclassified diagnosis. Medical doctors do not have a monopoly on diagnosis, only that of diseases. seVEMes

Perusing LeafRed's preferred iridology textbook by farida sharan shows numerous pseudo-science references to "energy". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.155.201.115 (talk) 02:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

LeafRed also seems to miss the point that the object here is NOT "to make an iridology page that accurately states what Iridologist say they do" but to make an iridology page that reflects what WP:RS sources say iridologists do, not necessarily what the Iridoligists themselves say they do. Snertking (talk) 13:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

An indeffed troll of this article has the legal right to practice medicine. But that does not magically make iridology any less of a quackery. Yup, just because homeopathy is practiced by MDs, it does not stop it from being quackery. He threatened with legal action, but he forgot that Lady Justice has a double-edged sword. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2020 (UTC)