Talk:Irreducible complexity

@Markbassett: I'm going to downgrade the subsection on cilia, which you introduced six years ago. I think that this rather is (and already then was) part of the discussion in Irreducible complexity#Flagella, which immediately precedes (and preceded) your addition. I therefore shall insert 'your' subsection as a part of that, and hope that you agree.

If you disagree, please feel free to revert my edit (but, if so, please, also consider a clarification of the difference of the two subjects)! Regards, JoergenB (talk) 21:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

User:JoergenB Thank you for notifying me. It's more about what have been named as separate examples with separate content be shown separately than whether Cilia otherwise seem similar to Flagella.

I will revert back to having it separate as it was created for the structural issue of cilium is shown earlier in article as a separate example. The History section Intelligent Design lists examples from Behe at "... "Molecular Machines" going into detail about cilia before saying "Other examples of irreducible complexity abound, including aspects of protein transport, blood clotting, closed circular DNA, electron transport, the bacterial flagellum, telomeres, photosynthesis, transcription regulation, and much more." (Note "Other", where Behe phrases as non-cilia examples things including bacterial flagellum.) Then later the History section Consequences says "Behe's original examples of irreducibly complex mechanisms included the bacterial flagellum of E. coli, the blood clotting cascade, cilia, and the adaptive immune system." (It is unclear in article on what is meant by "originally" or where that list comes from, but it is listing them as two different examples.)

I agree that clarity on details of what was said for claimed examples would be nice, but the section still seems to be at an earlier stage of not clear on what are the claimed examples to show. Cilia appears in both lists so I made it a subsection. I'm viewing it that first the Claimed Examples section should have subsections for the more prominent examples claimed to be IC, and exactly what the content is said for each would be a sub-concern as one cannot have such without a section for it. (Also, the flagellum example section would read oddly if it a first flagellum paragraph has a paragraph talking cilium stuck in before a paragraph resuming flagellum phrasing.) I'm not too concerned on how much of the Behe text one wants to include in each example. The difference between the Cilium example and Flagellum seems ultimately the same narrative one as the difference of flagellum from clotting -- that Behe is detailing different mechanisms and calling them out as different examples.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Markbassett: Thanks for the explanation! As far as I understand, your main point is that this article is about the theory named "irreducible complexity", and that its structure therefore (at least in the Claimed example section) naturally should exhibit the main points put forward by its main theoretical proponent (i. e., Behe). Thus, and since Behe treated bacterial flagella and eucaryote cilia as different examples, they also should have separate subsections. Is this an approximately correct understanding of your argument?

If so, I appreciate your point. However, neither the main article Evolution of flagella, nor the present version of the subsection Irreducible complexity#Flagella, adheres to this structure. The main article treats eucaryotic, bacterial, and archaeal "flagella" in separate sections. (Since these three structures presently are considered as non-analogous, this is rather reasonable.) The section about the eucaryotic flagellum starts

There are two competing groups of models for the evolutionary origin of the eukaryotic flagellum (referred to as cilium below to distinguish it from its bacterial counterpart). Recent studies on the microtubule organizing center suggest that the most recent ancestor of all eukaryotes already had a complex flagellar apparatus.[reference omitted]

(As you can see, this treats "cilia" as a synonym for "eucaryotic flagella".) The section continues with explanations of the probable common origin and evolution of the cilia, according to the presently favoured theories. (Whether or not these theories hold, their existence refutes Behe's opinion that the cilium were "irreducibly complex", since they exhibit one way the cilium may have developed from simpler systems.)

The subsection Irreducible complexity#Flagella of the article under discussion now has approximately the same structure, except for glossing over the "eucaryotic flagella" rather quickly. Its 'lead' begins

The flagella of certain bacteria constitute a molecular motor requiring the interaction of about 40 different protein parts. The flagellum (or cilium) developed from the pre-existing components of the eukaryotic cytoskeleton.^[1][2] In bacterial flagella, ...

1. [1]

   Mitchell, David R. (2007), "The Evolution of Eukaryotic Cilia and Flagella as Motile and Sensory Organelles", Eukaryotic Membranes and Cytoskeleton: Origins and Evolution, Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, vol. 607, New York, NY: Springer, pp. 130–140, doi:10.1007/978-0-387-74021-8_11, ISBN 978-0-387-74021-8, PMC 3322410, PMID 17977465, retrieved 2023-06-25{{citation}}: CS1 maint: work parameter with ISBN (link)
2. [2]

   Wickstead, Bill; Gull, Keith (2011-08-22). "The evolution of the cytoskeleton". Journal of Cell Biology. 194 (4): 513–525. doi:10.1083/jcb.201102065. ISSN 1540-8140. PMC 3160578. PMID 21859859.

and then continues with treating (mainly) bacterial flagella in more detail.

Thus, both the main article (since a long time) and the Flagella section here (at least the last few months) treat both of Behe's examples under the same heading "flagellum". They also do not distinguish between the (ubiquitus) "cilia" and the (rarer) "flagellum" (found in e. g. human sperm cells) among the eucaryotes, but consider them all as "cilia" = "eucaryotic flagella". Now, this is at most one terminological choice (see Flagellum#Terminology; and I suspect that it is not to be the most common one. I guess that the rationale for this choice was that cilia in our lungs and the flagella at our sperms are homologous, and hence do not need to be well distinguished, when we discuss their evolutionary origin. However, I suspect that a clarification could be of use for our readers.

Markbassett, you pointed out that Behe offered the bacterial flagellum and the eucaryotic cilium as two separate examples, and argue that they therefore should appear in two different sections. However, if 'your' present somewhat rudimentary section Irreducible complexity#Cilia indeed would be expanded to a full one, including the general answers by geneticists to Behe's claim, then it probably also should have either Evolution of flagella as its main article, or at least its subsection Evolution of flagella#Eucaryotic flagellum in the same rôle. I don't think that it is common to refer to the same "main article" for two different sections; but it should not be impossible, if this is what you prefer.

The alternative, which I prefer, would be to merge the two subsections Flagella and Cilia into one. It should then be necessary to change its title, e. g., to Flagella and cilia, and to start it by very explicitly stressing that this covers two different examples of Behe's. After giving Behe's bacteriological and eucaryotic exalmples, we could note that there in fact also are archaeal flagella; and that there are evolutionary explanations for all three complexes, but that they are different. (I don't know if introducing the term "nonhomologous" here would be of any help.) As for the eucaryotic variant, there could be an idea to note that the extant ones actually split into somewhat different variants, with clearly different physiologic functions and some difference in composition, but very clearly the same evolutionary source. Thus, just considering the eucaryotic cilia/flagella (including the immobile but sensitive cilia) should provide some good examples of exaptation (which IMHO is a rather relevant issue when discussing ID).

Which alternative (of these two, or some other) would you prefer? JoergenB (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@JoergenB: - Um, more that here it was trying to do a tiny tiny tiny bit towards internal consistency. In the large sense yes, this article is titularly for the concept "Irreducible Complexity', although there is some confusion with "too complex" (which is Specified complexity), and both content and structure seems largely not about IC. For this particular tidbit of having a subsection, I was trying to have what the claimed examples section has match a bit more clearly to where the article earlier listed claimed examples. That Behe treated bacterial flagella and eucaryote cilia as different examples was relevant mostly as just a check that the article listing was not a typo. I'm not saying these are by WP:WEIGHT the main examples of claims or of discussions, just that these two are given in more than one listing as separate entries and that those listings did check out. The content of the examples subsections -- all of the subsections -- could use considerably more work on informative content. Jutst did a tiny tiny bit more on the Beetle part, though I'm again not even sure it should be here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Anyone have more sources stating the beetle features are IC ???

Viewing the Cilia vs Flagellum area led me to seeing what else are listed as examples and for the Bombardier Beetle it was unclear about who said it was IC and where, as the cite only said Behe discussed it. So I removed the cite as insufficient for the line listing the components as IC.

I did find a replacement cite which does say components are IC, but the line phrasing of creationists (plural) state it needs either a summary cite saying so or multiple creationist works saying the components were IC. (Looking I did find Darwin's Black Box (p31) he referred to the older arguments (Gish vs Dawkins) about Bombardier Beetles, but the section I saw seemed him saying these were *not* IC since individual components had a benefit.)

I will reword the line to just 'said' as a summary of the one cited work as I do not have multiple works and not a source saying plural works say that, but if anyone comes up with more they can return it to a plural phrasing.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• p.s. If no further cites can be found, perhaps it should just be removed as UNDUE prominence and as something which predated the term IC rather than something directly in IC discussions. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

"Although Behe leaves open the questions of whether bombardier beetles are irreducibly complex", he devotes five pages of his Black Box to the detailed arguments before saying "All we can conclude at this point is that Darwinian evolution might have occured. If we could analyze the structural details of the beetle down to the last protein and enzyme, and if we could account for all these details with a Darwinian explanation, then we could agree with Dawkins. For now, though, we cannot tell whether the step-by-step accretions of our hypothetical evolutionary stream are single-mutation"hops" or helicopter rides between distant buttes." Implying IC remains an option. He's put online a review which says "To illustrate that life is irreducibly complex, and therefore designed, Behe takes the reader on a microscopic expedition through the following mechanisms: .... (2) bombardier beetle ballistics, ...". He's not the only IC proponent, the cite you've added (but not formatted properly) is a paper by Andrew McIntosh (physicist) which "is primarily concerning the physics of the beetle valve system and shows that it is irreducibly complex and marvelously designed." These points should be shown . . dave souza, talk 10:44, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Dave souza Um, I think that where Behe is quoted as saying something might have evolved is pretty clearly him saying that part is not IC. "All we can conclude at this point is that Darwinian evolution might have occured." It then has him asserting it cannot be determined whether the steps were single-mutation hops or helicopter rides -- but either way is saying the mechanism is an endpoint of steps, which is to say reducible. Anyway, it all simply lacks him saying the word "irreducible" so that doesn't serve as a support for "irreducible complexity" being said about it.

The further quote from a review about the Behe book "Darwin's Black Box" is from Thane Hutcherson Ury saying "Behe takes the reader on a microscopic expedition through the following mechanisms: (1) the marvels of vision, (2) bombardier beetle ballistics, (3) bacterial flagella, (4) the blood clotting process, (5) intracellular transport, and (6) disease immunity. These each display different aspects of irreducible complexity, molecular cascading, and symbiosis of biochemical systems, and veto Darwinian gradualism in that natural selection is emasculated; that is, the incipient stages cannot even be conceptualised, much less in a way that would confer selective advantage." But where within vision, beetle, etcetera that Ury thinks Behe said some aspect of irreducible complexity is not stated. Ury is asserting that each displays different aspects of those Intelligent Design concepts, and not stating that each in entirety is IC. It's hard to see that short remark review of places Behe found ID aspects as much of a declaration for the beetle as a whole, particularly when the other items are not listed as such. (For example, the article already mentions Behe acknowledged that the evolution of the larger anatomical features of the eye have been well-explained, and that Behe was pointing to light sensitivity - then the article detours to a note re Safarti and about a page re the larger anatomical features.) The Ury review later identifies the Box section about the beetle beetle defence as requiring at least six steps and "Behe does not even have to elaborate on the (at least) four metabolic processes simultaneously taking place, nor mention other anatomical support, or the crucial aspect of synchronisation, etc.". This section of the review still lacks any declaration of "irreducible". Anyway, the Ury list quote is just a brief line in a remote book review rather than prolonged and prominent mentions by ID proponents, so I am still not seeing beetles as having enough WP:WEIGHT to give as an IC posterchild here, and not seeing any specifics that could be used for article content to detail what is being asserted as IC. It all just seems more a bit of Creation Science legacy that somehow got misplaced here. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Anyone have further sources stating comparative genomics relates here ? I’m not seeing why it is there or how it relates.

The lead paragraph 3 ends with “examples documented through comparative genomics show that complex molecular systems are formed by the addition of components as revealed by different temporal origins of their proteins.”

But there is not any article body content related to this so it seems not prominent enough to be in WP:LEAD, and the relationship is not clear from just that lead mention. The two cites attached are not about IC nor used elsewhere, so it seems like a side remark that someone felt rebutted Behe, but how or where is unclear from just the content in lead. So... is anyone able to expand in body, and does it really belong as a lead item ?

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

p.s. The edit was inserted long ago by an IP, from back when the lead was simply two short paras of (1) IC definition and (2) strongly rejected. Here seems the origin. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• It's been a long time and nobody has explained how this relates, nor have I been able to google up linking of comparative genomics to irreducible complexity. The topic seems to talk about it shows complexity developing over time, which is fine for evolution but has no relationship to the notion of what state would be the lowest or irreducible complexity - the point where removal of one more thing would mean no function. Without any significant content about comparative genomics in the body, I cannot understand what it even is but can say it does not belong in the LEAD per WP:LEAD guidance that the lead should summarize the major content of the article. Nor does is the prominence in Lead justified by WP:WEIGHT amount of coverage. So I will remove the line. I would shift it to wherever it fit lower down, but as it has no obvious meaning to me I can only delete it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The second para of the LEAD doesn’t seem to fit well to this article. It does not seem to be summarizing a major part of the body and not clear if it is talking more about Specified complexity (where it says “too improbable” and “too complex”) or the overall Intelligent design where it is talking the ID term source. I thought I would ask if this para can simply be removed.

“The central concept, of biological complexity too improbable to have evolved by chance natural processes, was already featured in creation science.^[1][2] The 1989 school textbook Of Pandas and People introduced the alternative terminology of intelligent design, the 1993 edition was revised to include a variation of the same argument: it was later shown that these revisions were written by Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University.^[3]”

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC) Markbassett (talk) 17:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Well, it has been a bit more than a month with no objection or alternative, so I will simply go ahead and remove the second para. Just seems a confusion into Specified complexity got interjected from earlier versions (e.g. a few years ago here). Maybe more revision (or reversion) would be good, but I'll limit this edit to just the topic of this thread and only remove the off-topic second para. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Hi Mark, a fair point that the definition of the concept needed some clarification, the detail of which is already covered in the cited source. The paragraph covers important points from the #Creationism and #Intelligent design sections of the article, so have revised it for clarity, and make it explicitly on-topic. . dave souza, talk 12:32, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
    The central concept, that complex biological systems which require all their parts to function could not evolve by the incremental changes of natural selection so must have been produced by an intelligence, was already featured in creation science.^[4][5] The 1989 school textbook Of Pandas and People introduced the alternative terminology of intelligent design, revisions to the 1993 edition of the textbook included a section supporting the concept.^[3]
• While the exercise has suggested some detailed improvements to references in the main article, think that covers the points raised, . . . . dave souza, talk 12:32, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

• User:Dave souza ??? Thanks, but please revert or alter that edit, it now fails WP:V.
• Yes, the central concept of Irreducible Complexity (IC) is that complex biological systems which require all their parts to function could not evolve by the incremental changes of natural selection. That would be good to insert as second line in the first para as it neatly summarizes the wordier Behe quote. But the prior phrasing thata was about "too complex to have occurred 'by chance'", which is mixing in Specified complexity instead of being about IC, was faithfully representing the cited Scott (2009) commenting freely about all sections of the ID field and seems someone did an edit about it into the lead section. The new phrasing is no longer supported by the Scott cite. (Putting forward a single line from a Scott book passed WP:V though it seems a bit WP:UNDUE and not a summary of the article per WP:LEAD.) The second cite to Slack could support that Behe had "no problem" with someone thought that a 1994 article supported Intelligent Design but I'm not seeing why it is cited there or even in an article specific to the subset Irreducible Complexity. Since I was just pulling the whole para as a muddle and not big part of the article I didn't have to worry about it.
• The second line is still about the origin of the term "Intelligent design" so still seems gone astray from the article topic. I think it could be redone to usefully lead the next para by showing how Behe got involved in the area, but as phrased it is not obvious what it is going on about except that it is not specific to IC. It says "revisions to the 1993 edition of the textbook included a section supporting the concept". I think it means revisions to the 1993 edition of the textbook included a section 'on biochemistry by Behe' as it is not obvious how a 1993 edition could "support" a not-then existing 1996 book and concept, and there is no WP:V shown of someone stating that the 1993 text "supported" the later phrasing of Irreducible Complexity. So that line seems not needed but in any case to belong as lead in the third para if altered to just that Behe wrote a biochemistry chapter in Pandas and then go one he wrote Black Box in 1996 which introduced the concept of "irreducible complexity".
• I can understand that supporters or critics write freely mixing all the sub-topics of IC, SC, and ID without particular concern about keeping distinctions -- so the reality in sources *is* that they're muddled. So I think WP needs to work extra at avoiding going astray or muddling different terms and concepts (e.g. Irreducible complexity , Specified complexity, Intelligent design, "purposeful arrangement of parts", Complex specified information, Watchmaker analogy, etcetera). Cheers Markbassett (talk) 15:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

• clarification – The 1989 school textbook Of Pandas and People introduced the alternative terminology of intelligent design, a revised section in the 1993 edition of the textbook argued that a blood-clotting system demonstrated this concept. ........
  [Behe] argued that "all of the proteins had to be present simultaneously for the blood clotting system to function", so it could not have evolved. In later publications, he named the argument "irreducibly complexity", but changed his definition of this specific system. . . .dave souza, talk 00:59, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Minor glitches in ref cites it seems ...

In preview I saw WP saying there are cite errors, and think I cleared up ref 98 in the Flagella section of a book cite to Brenner's Encyclopedia that had mixed in a journal= and unrelated name Egelman.("cite book |last1=Egelman |first1=E. H. |title=Intelligent Design A2 – Maloy, Stanley |journal=Brenner's Encyclopedia of Genetics" ).

But I'm unable to figure out the journal cite there, if it wasn't just a typo. Anyone know if there was a journal cite to add?

Also, I see the refs section shows issue for cite 41 citing as journal a skeptic.com article (now deadlink) -- any ideas what to do there ?

I also edited what seemed a journal cite mislabeled as book (here) but that one seems clear enough.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2025 (UTC)