Talk:Msemmen

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On 27 May 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from M'semen to Msemmen. The result of the discussion was moved.

Amazigh

Hi all, to say Msemmen is something typical Amazigh is wrong. It is north african or maybe not even that Supermohi (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

M'smen is originally Moroccan and it's recipe is registered in a Moroccan cookbook returns to the 13 century by ابن الرزين التجيبي , it's not Amazighe. Jamaru25 (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

November 2019

@Jamaru25: Apart from the fact that the source that you cited here is unreliable, it doesn't seem to support what you attribute to it. Can you please provide a direct quote from it that supports what you added to the article? M.Bitton (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

It's written with a language that you're not able to read, it's written in Arabic, and this book returns back to the 13 century registering this kind of Moroccan culinary.

I did my best to bring a proper source even that you didn't like it?! What should I do?! Every time you do the same irritated action, oh come on. Jamaru25 (talk) 00:12, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

This book reciting the recipe with it's ingredients only, I will need time to translate it. Jamaru25 (talk) 00:14, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

But, my condition is to give back my country's full credit and originality because it's ours. Jamaru25 (talk) 00:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

In other words, you misrepresented the source. M.Bitton (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

What?! Misrepresenting the source?!

Show how me to correctly present it, and thank you in advance ☺. @M.Bitton:Jamaru25 (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

This book reciting the recipe with it's ingredients only. Which begs the question: where did all that nonsense that you keep adding to the article come from? M.Bitton (talk) 23:58, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Please, respect yourself while you're talking. This is a cookbook from the 13 century and you say nonsense?! And you're not an Administrator or an Editor to have this discussion with me, Wikipedia believes in sources and I add my sources and you have no right to revert it, I swear to report you to the Administration of Wikipedia because of your misusing of reversing @M.Bitton:. Jamaru25 (talk) 00:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Believe me I will report you @M.Bitton: Jamaru25 (talk) 00:39, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

My source is reliable, because you're not able to read Arabic that doesn't make my source not reliable and don't judge things because your only language is English, educate yourself how to react to others people culture @M.Bitton:. Jamaru25 (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Whether it's reliable or not is irrelevant since you're misrepresenting what it says, or to put it bluntly, you're lying about what it says. M.Bitton (talk) 01:01, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I'm not lying and my source is reliable, because you're not able to read Arabic that doesn't make me lying or my sources irrelevant or not reliable, you caught red handed misusing the reverting option, while I am right because I gave a source you're trying to neglect it, your change have no source too which make irrelevant, prove your change with at a source because it's irrelevant and not reliable, I am filling a report against you. Jamaru25 (talk) 01:12, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@Jamaru25: I want you to file a report, I even insist that you do so that everyone can see what you're up to M.Bitton (talk) 01:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: I will fill it, and I haven't done anything wrong, I put my source from a historical cookbook from the 13 century registering this kind of Moroccan culinary and all you did is reverting it, while your change have no source, don't act innocent, you're misleading people with your false information that you're changing everytime, you're just an Extended Confirmed User you're just a user like me, you have no right to revert my edits, know your limits. Jamaru25 (talk) 01:20, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I haven't done anything wrong, I put my source from a historical cookbook from the 13 century. What you did is attribute original research to a document hosted on a file-sharing site and when asked to provide a quote from it, you refused. M.Bitton (talk) 23:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

To Drmies

to @Drmies:, I have did my best to bring sources to prove myself about it, I have even add this book^[1] with it's correct page number which show this bread in it, and all he did is keeping reverting without even make a further look into it, this book it's returns to the 13 century registering this kind of Moroccan culinary. Jamaru25 (talk) 02:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I tried to look at that before, but all I get is "The key you provided for file access was invalid". If I have to click on that "Download" link, I won't do that; I don't trust filesharing sites. Drmies (talk) 14:22, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@Jamaru25: You wanted other editors to have a look at "your so-called source", here's someone who's trying to help you telling you that they can't verify it. Why don't you address their concern? M.Bitton (talk) 23:48, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: what if I have upload it again and proved you totally wrong?! I have the pdf format of the book, so can you stop your aggressive attitude. Jamaru25 (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

You do whatever you have to do to address the raised concerns. M.Bitton (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@Drmies: Please try to download it from here

http://www.mediafire.com/file/a4t74eo6q8i107o/%25D9%2581%25D8%25B6%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A9_%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25AE%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586_%25D9%2581%25D9%258A_%25D8%25B7%25DB%258C%25D9%2591%25D8%25A8%25D8%25A7%25D8%25AA_%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25B7%25D8%25B9%25D8%25A7%25D9%2585_%25D9%2588_%25D8%25A7%25D9%2584%25D8%25A3%25D9%2584%25D9%2588%25D8%25A7%25D9%2586_-_%25D8%25A5%25D8%25A8%25D9%2586_.pdf/file Jamaru25 (talk) 00:02, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@Jamaru25: Can you please provide a direct quote from it that supports what you added to the article? M.Bitton (talk) 00:04, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: wait for moment Jamaru25 (talk) 00:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm not downloading anything. A source from 1375 or whatever should, at the very least, have complete and reliable bibliographical information. Drmies (talk) 00:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

@Drmies: Here is what I could translat, the use of (we use) it's refers to Moroccans.

To make M'semen, we use semolina or flour durum wheat, melted ghee and salt and start mixing them with warm water, and kneading the dough strongly, then cut the dough into pieces, in a surface the spread the dough to make it thinner and fold it with the use of ghee, the same method is repeated with the other pieces of the dough, then you start cooking M'semen in a pan with slow heat, and then removed from the pan and place it and covered with a napkin, and watered with hot honey and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.

Jamaru25 (talk) 00:56, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

That's a simple recipe. There's nothing in it to support your claim and the changes you've made.
Here is what I could translat, the use of (we use) it's refers to Moroccans. That's a lie!
1. The "we" does not appear anywhere in that recipe.
2. Even if did, it still would not refer to the "Moroccans", given that the author (Ibn Razin al-Tujibi) is Andalusian. Here's a scholarly and peer-reviewed article about the author and his 13th century book.^[2]
As for the other so-called sources that you added at the last minute: three are blog like sites making baseless claims in passing and two are cookbooks (there's no preview for the first and the second is nothing more than a recipe). It doesn't take a genius to work out that cookbooks (whether they describe this bread as Tunisian, Moroccan or Algerian^[3]^[4]) are only reliable for what they are meant for, i.e, cooking directions and recipes, and that any claim they make that falls outside of their sphere of authority is irrelevant to anyone who's trying to write an encyclopedia.
Crucially, you have failed to provide any source to support the following utter nonsense recently have been known to Algeria and Tunisia (that you introduced in the article). No surprises there since the consumption of the M'semen in Algeria is attested in various sources dating as far back as 1835.^[5]^[6]^[7]

Therefore, I will restore the article to its neutral version and urge you to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's core content policies. M.Bitton (talk) 23:38, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

References

[1]
Ibn Arrazine Attajibi (1377). Fdhalah Alkhwan fi tibat Alta'am Wa la'lwan. p. 72. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
[2]
Nadeau, Carolyn A. (2012). "Contributions of Medieval Food Manuals to Spain's Culinary Heritage" (PDF). cromev.com. Retrieved 10 Nov 2019.
[3]
Jeff Hertzberg, M.D.; Zoë François (1 February 2010). Healthy Bread in Five Minutes a Day: 100 New Recipes Featuring Whole Grains, Fruits, Vegetables, and Gluten-Free Ingredients. St. Martin's Publishing Group. pp. 228–230. ISBN 978-1-4299-3828-0.
[4]
Karen Adler; Judith Fertig (22 April 2014). Patio Pizzeria: Artisan Pizza and Flatbreads on the Grill. Running Press. p. 163. ISBN 978-0-7624-5179-1.
[5]
Libyca: Anthropologie, préhistoire, ethnographie. La Sous-direction. 1969. p. 335.
[6]
Corneille Trumelet (1863). Les français dans le désert: journal d'une expédition aux limites du S'ah'ra algérien. Garnier frères. p. 177.
[7]
Revue de l'Orient et de L'Algérie et de colonies: bulletin et actes de la Société orientale. Société orientale. 1835. p. 100.

@M.Bitton: how funny of you to claim that I'm lying even I gives you a direct quote?! Ibn Arrazine Attajibi even if he is Andalusian, he wrote his book in Morocco about the Moroccan culinary during the Al-Marinid Dynasty, which including every dish we still use till today and have no existence in Algeria nor Tunisia, you're not the one will teach me about a book that I have read many times, you weren't able to read because it's written in Arabic and you asked me to bring a quote which you disapprove it?!, you really do lack of respect to the others.

If you think it's North African bread then put a reference that prove it, rather than that your statement is considered as a False Information, so don't compare my sourced information with your unsourced information, maybe my sources seems not reliable to you, but your changes are totally not reliable at all because of the lack of the source. Jamaru25 (talk) 17:49, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Amazigh

November 2019

To Drmies

Requested move 27 May 2023

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