Talk:Nuclear terrorism

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Removed statements about use of nuclear weapons during WWII as possible acts of terrorism. These statements violate Wikipedia guidelines Wikipedia:Cite Sources and Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. The use of nuclear weapons during a declared war by uniformed military under orders from top government authority is not terrorism. At most, it may be considered a possible war crime, but even that is doubtful.

I just have an honest question about this: "Others believe that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki constitute such an act." First, I'm not positive I agree with that statement because a declared state of war existed between Japan and the United States, but I can accept it IF someone can point to some sources where people are stating that they believe the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to be nuclear terrorism. I would then support changing "others" to "sources" in the statement. --ABQCat 00:00, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I don't know what the article's author had in mind because I didn't write it, but I think the origin of this statement lie in the serious problem of defining the word "terrorist" in a neutral apolitical fashion that would be of practical use when deciding how the international community should respond. The best suggestion so far, IMHO, was made by the Indian government which said it would simply be "any act of violence that contravenes the Geneva Convention". Technically, I think but I'm not sure, the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be arguably said to contravene the convention because they were deliberate attacks on civilian areas of little military significance. The same "terrorism" label is sometimes also applied to the deliberate British bombing of civilian areas in Germany (especially the city of Dresden) as ordered by the famous Royal Air Force officer "Bomber" Harris. Bomber Harris' actions have actually been a great source of controversy in Britain over the past couple of decades, with many now of the opinion that they should never have happened and should be classed as war crimes because Harris' conscious and stated strategy was to end the war by deliberately killing as many German civilians as possible in order to break their morale. Deliberate indiscriminate mass killing of civilians in order to break morale is, in many people's eyes, also a definition of a terrorist act. I assume the phrase about Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the article is meant to refer to similar discussions about the morality and legality of using the atomic bombs on those cities.

Request for addition to article

I was watching the New Hampshire Debate on January 5, 2008, and the moderator Charles Gibson posed this question to the Democratic candidates, which has stuck in my mind ever since:

MR. GIBSON: "I want to get to another question, and it really is the central one in my mind in nuclear terrorism. The next president of the United States may have to deal with a nuclear attack on an American city. I've read a lot about this in recent days. The best nuclear experts in the world say there's a 30 percent chance in the next 10 years. Some estimates are higher: Graham Allison at Harvard says it's over 50 percent. Senator Sam Nunn, in 2005, who knows a lot about this, posed two questions that stick in my mind, and I want to put them to you here. On the day after a nuclear weapon goes off in an American city, what would we wish we had done to prevent it? And what will we actually do on the day after?"

Here is a link to a transcript of the New Hampshire debate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/us/politics/05text-ddebate.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

I think this question and its answers would be a good addition to the Nuclear Terrorism article. Also, info on the experts Mr. Gibson cites would be helpful. I dread the coming of this day he speaks of, not only because of the terrible attack itself (which will make Sept. 11th look silly), but of the terrible war of revenge that will inevitably follow. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Good comment. It is significant that all US presidential candidates consider this as a very real possibility. You are very welcome to add yourself this material to the article. Pleas be bold.Biophys (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by Pro-US editors

Certain editors have first rewritten the sections on hiroshima and nagasaki with horrendous editorialising, and then deleted them outright. Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date).

The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant and deserves attention, regardless of whether certian people wish to sweep them under the carpet. Damburger 14:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems no matter how much evidence I produce that people do hold that opinion, the pro-US crowd on here stick to blind denial. The section needs to stay as a contrary opinion. Regardless of whether it offends certain editors senses of nationalism. Damburger 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
You need to start by actually producing evidence, and if, as you claim, "The view the these were acts of terrorism is quite prevelant", you should have no problem producing WP:RS that say this. What you have done so far is not even close. For example, the most recently added citation , does not call the acts nuclear terrorism, but rather asks a question 'So who was the terrorist here? The "allies" who used the ultimate atomic weapon -- or was it the Japanese, who had launched the Pearl Harbor terrorist attack on the United States and whose wartime invasion of Asia was notable for its brutal tactics?' - but does not answer it to say that it was the allies who are terrorists. Two other points I'll make to you: (1) Please read and familiarize yourself with WP:CIVIL. Your recent edit summary was abusive, and editors may be blocked for such behaviour (2) 3RR is not an entitlement. Making statements like "Due to the 3RR rule I can't do anything about this right now (but I will continue to reinsert the sections in question at a later date). " indicates an intention to continue edit warring, and will get you reported and blocked even if you do not technically violate 3RR. Isarig 15:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC) +
I have produced 4 links, after having the first 2 challenged on tenuous grounds. Its clear to me that no matter how much I produce you and your allies will never accept the presence of an opposing viewpoint in this article. The question you quote is a Rhetorical question, I suggest you familiarise yourself with the concept.
You produced 4 links. The first two were rightly rejected as they were not WP:RS. The next two do not say what you claim. The CommonDreams article calls Fort Benning the capital of Nuclear Terrorism, but that's unrelated to Hiroshima. It says bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was evil, but does not once say that Hiroshima was nuclear terrorism. The Asia Media article also does not say what you claim, as I have shown. It is indeed a rhetorical question - one that explictly calls one attack "terrorist" - the Japanese one. You have claimed that the view that it was Nuclear Terroism is quite prevelant - so you should have no problem producing WP:RS that actually say it. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Given that the idea of a reputable source around here mainly revolves around being a representative of the mainstream US media, it is quite hard to find material that doesn't toe the American line. Nevertheless, I have found it, but have been met with constant vandalism of the article (deletion of the entire section, and thus the entire opposing view, is clearly vandalism). Damburger 15:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
You are bot incorrect with regards to what makes a WP:RS, and misleading with regards to what your sources say. Isarig 17:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


And still there is no justification for deleting the entire section (beyond demonstrably false statements in the edit summary). How can I see this as anything other than vandalism if people refuse to discuss why they wish to remove this side of the argument from the article? I am deeply dissappointed at the level this has got to, with people trying to censor section and refusing to discuss the content at all. Damburger 15:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to somehow justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki with Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March. Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March were an attack and an atrocity perpetrated by the Japanese military against US and Allied soldiers, whereas the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were largely civilians. Pearl Harbor was a military base, and the city of Honolulu, which is within a few miles, was not attacked. This is comparing apples to oranges. Attacks against soldiers and the wholesale slaughter of civilians are not one and the same. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 22:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, as an American citizen, I can tell you there is much guilt in this country over the Japanese atomic bombings. Why else would there be such stone-faced denial? As an anti-nuclear activist, I run into it all the time. Yes, the Japanese conducted civilian atrocities as at Nanking and in Manchuria, yet it could not be said that the Allies were avenging the Chinese with our atomic bombs. Then, as now, unfortunately, the Chinese people were held in contempt and considered expendible. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 22:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
We are making an encyclopedia here. This has nothing to do with "guilt" or "denials". It is generally accepted that war by governments is not terrorism. We are not making moral judgements here. I belive war is even worse than terrorism, but it is something different.Biophys (talk) 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that, in the sense that if you have a flag and a mandate from a sovereign government, it's a possible "war crime" as opposed to a terrorist act. I think about Sherman's March to the Sea for example. I did not call the atomic bombing of Japan a terrorist act. My entries above were in reference to Isarig's mentions of Pearl Harbor vs. Hiroshima in the above section. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed outline for major revision

Greetings everyone. I'm planning on making a major revision to the page, incorporating information on nuclear terrorism from a number of sources. I'll work from books ( Graham Allison, Nuclear Terrorism, Ferguson and Potter, Four Faces of Nuclear Terrorism), papers (), and official sources like the IAEA. I propose to outline it as such.

  1. Definition of nuclear terrorism, including links to Radiological Dispersal Devices (Dirty Bombs) and attacks on nuclear power plants.
  2. Incidents that might have been precursors to nuclear terrorism.
  3. Scholarship on nuclear terrorism.
    1. Early scholarship and how it has waxed and waned.
  4. Efforts to prevent nuclear terrorism.
    1. Proposals and official efforts.

Note if you think I'm missing anything--I plan to make this article about three times as long; see the above list for the extensive scholarship on the topic that this article hasn't even begun to mention. I will not get into the controversy about Hiroshima, though I may mention it toward the end. I would love input from anyone on these changes, which I plan to make next week.Mich112358 22:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as the controversy about Hiroshima is actually mentioned I'm happy. A lot of the editors are trying to purge any mention of it from the article.

I support this effort. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings though, I can't see them being actually purported as terrorism. Perhaps a note where it says "it has been suggested that the Hiroshima bombing was an instance of nuclear terrorism by *insert source*" because I think the commonly accepted position on that issue is that it was not terrorism for reasons already well stated.
My suggestion for the future direction of the article would be to very clearly point to articles that hit on the same issues such as Dirty bomb and default to those articles when appropriate.
Another thing, are there copyright tags that allow use of pictures straight from Homeland Security work like this because I find them hilarious. theanphibian 03:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's be Honest


Whenever you hear a half-witted fuckwit from America bang on about the possibility of 'nuclear terrorism', it must surely be realised that they are probably 11 short of a dozen (I'm tempted to state more than this). The probability of someone making a *functioning* nuclear bomb and using that within a device on an American city is EXTREMELY unlikely. Yet the internet devotes several hundred thousand (nay, millions) of websites to this non-existent issue (non-existent in the reasonable sense that that a significant proportion of the world's population doesn't have enough nutritious food to feed itself, let alone - so nuclear weapons construction does seem to be off the cards for this portion of the human race).

Anyhow, the point that I have made is that US tax-payers shouldn't bother directing money towards preventing nuclear terrorism - because it's probably never going to happen.

Note : "Dirty bombs" don't really (or remotely) count as nuclear in any meaningful sense. If there was genuine concern about such devices - then why not ban almost every house-hold device containing anything remotely radioactive ('honey, the smoke detectors a potential threat to National Security'.....Jesus Christ....).

If making such a rant, please cite sources. Any information that you supposedly possess of the lack of danger of nuclear terrorism would be very useful for this article. Especially this assertion you make that a terrorist would have to build a bomb, rather than possibly just aquire one. Peoplesunionpro 20:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


Insulting people in a political argument usually indicates a lack of intellectual confidence on the part of the person throwing the insults. It is also a fact that nuclear terrorism IS a major threat, although a minority of extreme Leftist are so lost in ideological thinking that they refuse to acknowledge it.

No one on the far-Left political end of the spectrum wanted to acknowledge the threat that Hitler to the free world either, until it was too late.

Ideology is a drug, the collapse of intellect into a pseudo-relious thought process-- And the denial of the threat of nuclear terrorism posted above is an excellent example of what ideology of any sort can do to intelligent people and their thought process.

It is revealing that the poster above starts by throwing personal insults-- and then ends by calling for some kind of orderly citation process in the article. This logical inconsitency-- (personal insults followed by a call for a reasoned debate)-- is a red flag that ideological thinking patterns have taken hold of this person.

Sean7phil (talk) 20:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sean7Phil: The posts above were by two different people. It's plain to see. The first post ends with, "Jesus Christ....)." The second poster is the more reasoned one. 65.248.164.214 (talk) 21:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Use of radioactive materials by Soviet block secret services

See European Journal of Radiology, volume 63, "Ionizing radiation in secret services’ conspirative actions", Pages 263-269, by H. Vogel, P. Lotz and B. Vogel

In 1957, the physicians of a US- Military hospital stated that the secret agent Nikolaj Khokhlov, who had deserted from the USSR to the USA, had been killed with radioactive thallium.

General Pacepa, who had deserted to the West in 1978, reported in his memoirs in 1987 [5], that radiating substances for killing purposes belonged to the weapon arsenal of the Bulgarian secret service. In spring of 1970, the department K, a small department in the counterintelligence, included radioactive substances obtained from the KGB, in its weapons arsenal. The action “Radu” was ordered, to apply these for the assassination of the former foreign minister Kiraly.

The investigations of the British and the German authorities suggest that Dimitri Kovtun brought the Polonium-210 from Moscow to London via Hamburg. He contaminated his ex-wife, his children, and their apartment when he stayed with them in Hamburg. The ex-wife and the children stayed for the measurements of the Polonium-210 in Asklepiosklinik St. Georg, Hamburg. The proof that the contamination occurred during this visit and not during a former one of Kovtun or by another person could be made by identifying Polonium-210 also on the documents of the registration office in Hamburg, where Kovtun went to extend his residence permit. Furthermore Polonium-210 traces were found in the airplanes, in which Kovtun had traveled.

The incident with Litvinenko has also attracted comparisons to the poisoning by radioactive thallium of KGB defector Nikolay Khokhlov and journalist Shchekochikhin of Novaya Gazeta. A comparisonwas also made with Roman Tsepov whowas responsible for personal protection of Anatoly Sobchak and Putin [7] and who died in Russia in 2004 from poisoning by an unknown radioactive substance [1]. Biophys 05:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

And the big question to Biophys after all, where in this source Litvinenko's, Shchekochikhin's murders are described as act of nuclear terrorism? Create article "Poisoning with radioactive materials" and do what you want. Insertion of these cases in the article titled "Nuclear terrorism" is clear original research. La poet 05:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Sources provided.Biophys 17:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

radiological poisoning?

I don't see anything in the articles cited actually referring to the radiological poisoning incidents as "terrorism" or "nuclear terrorism" -- should that section be removed? csloat (talk) 23:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed this and other material that has no clear relationship to "nuclear terrorism." Another user reverted without comment. If this user thinks the material is relevant to this page, he or she should provide links to reliable sources explaining this connection, otherwise it is considered original research. csloat (talk) 00:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea that radiological poisoning could be utilised by terrorist groups as a tactic to assassinate government officials is valid. I have edited the article to make this clear, and emphasise that this has never actually occurred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.56.34.2 (talk) 04:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Just what this article needs; more illegitimate original synthesis of ideas combined with rampant speculation. What would be really cool is if someone actually read some of the ubiquitous books and academic articles available on this topic and wrote about the ideas scholars actually publish about under this heading instead. csloat (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I can not discuss anything with the user who is making massive deletions of sourced text in this article per Arbcomm ruling. I suggested to avoid any conflicts with him by not editing any articles that have been edited earlier by another party, and I followed exactly this rule. This article has been edited earlier by me. So, I am going to continue work here, but I can not discuss any issues with him, as he is well aware.Biophys (talk) 00:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First, the rule you suggested has not been followed; I have been on this article and on Terrorism and similar topics long before you got here. If you can't discuss your reversions, you are simply being disruptive -- I have discussed each of my changes in the edit summaries and above. I would prefer to stay out of conversations with you as well, but you cannot make disruptive edits and declare that you won't even defend them. Reverting my edits on principle just because you don't like me is exactly the kind of behavior that the Arbcom ruling was meant to prevent. Refusing to discuss your revert-warring only compounds the violation. csloat (talk) 00:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Biophys, for reverting massive deletions of sourced material by User:Commodore Sloat. I will make the reversion again... Johnfos (talk) 00:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry; the material is sourced, but it has nothing to do with this page, as I explained clearly. The connection to nuclear terrorism needs to be explained, with reference to reliable sources. Can you explain what the connection is, if Biophys refuses to? It seems like original research to me. It is sad, too, because this is a topic with several books written about it and scores of interesting academic articles; yet the Wikipedia article is awful -- much of it taken up with half-baked conspiracy fantasies from the likes of Lunev that don't even mention nuclear terrorism! And yet there's not even a reasonable definition of the topic on here. Also, what about your other edits -- you have deleted an entire section with sources about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and you have re-introduced an embarrassing grammatical error that I tried to remove. Do you stand behind these edits as well? Can you explain your edits please, or is this just a matter of agreeing with your friends on Wikipedia in order to outnumber anyone else who tries to change the article? It is disconcerting. csloat (talk) 01:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent deletions and reverts

You seem upset, and are raising a lot of issues at once. And you have made many edits at once which has confused things. I wonder if we can focus first on the section relating to Stanislav Lunev, which you deleted. Exactly what is the problem with this:—Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnfos (talk • contribs)

OK, great -- where in the above do you see the phrase "nuclear terrorism"? Or the word "terrorism" at all? If this is the only one of your edits you will defend, can you please revert the other edits you made? And if you want to keep this section in the article until the dispute is resolved, can you please revert the title as I suggested in this edit?

Allegations of preparations to nuclear sabotage

The highest-ranking GRU defector Stanislav Lunev described alleged Soviet plans for using tactical nuclear weapons for sabotage against the United states in the event of war. He described Soviet-made suitcase nukes identified as RA-115s (or RA-115-01s for submersible weapons) which weigh from fifty to sixty pounds. These portable bombs can last for many years if wired to an electric source. “In case there is a loss of power, there is a battery backup. If the battery runs low, the weapon has a transmitter that sends a coded message – either by satellite or directly to a GRU post at a Russian embassy or consulate.”.[1]

Lunev was personally looking for hiding places for weapons caches in the Shenandoah Valley area. [1] He said that "it is surprisingly easy to smuggle nuclear weapons into the US" ether across the Mexican border or using a small transport missile that can slip undetected when launched from a Russian airplane [1] US Congressman Curt Weldon supported claims by Lunev, but "Weldon said later the FBI discredited Lunev, saying that he exaggerated things." [2] Searches of the areas identified by Lunev - who admits he never planted any weapons in the US - have been conducted, "but law-enforcement officials have never found such weapons caches, with or without portable nuclear weapons."[3]

By the way, I am not "raising a lot of issues at once" as you wrote. I made every single edit independently with a brief explanation of each one. Did you even bother to read my edit summaries, which clearly explained every single edit including the deletion of the above? Or did you just do a wholesale revert of all my edits without a word of explanation? csloat (talk) 07:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. See also: Wikipedia:Etiquette Johnfos (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Johnfos. I have a cool head, but thank you for your advice. Please respond to the arguments below, and please do not use admonitions like "keep a cool head" as a way of dispensing with the discussion. You made significant edits to the article that you seem unwilling to defend. It would be great if you could show some good faith about those edits and either defend them or revert yourself. Thank you, and have an excellent day. csloat (talk) 15:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In reply to Johnfos, I must tell that one of cited sources includes the following (first paragraph): "The leading congressional expert on Russia's small portable nuclear weapons told United Press International that the FBI has stepped up its investigation of whether al Qaida or other terrorist groups have acquired these deadly devices from Russian stockpiles." So this text is definitely about terrorrism - per source. Besides, the difference between the sabotage and terrorism is not clear cut.Biophys (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually the difference is clear cut enough to have separate articles on both concepts that don't even refer to each other. But that is not the issue -- the quote you refer to is not actually in the text that we are discussing. I don't have a problem with a quote about FBI investigations into al Qaeda acquiring nukes from Moscow for attacks on the US. But that really isn't what the Lunev material talks about at all. You do see that, right? csloat (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

References

  1. [1]
    Stanislav Lunev. Through the Eyes of the Enemy: The Autobiography of Stanislav Lunev, Regnery Publishing, Inc., 1998. ISBN 0-89526-390-4.
  2. [2]
    Nicholas Horrock, "FBI focusing on portable nuke threat", UPI (20 December 2001).
  3. [3]
    Steve Goldstein and Chris Mondics, "Some Weldon-backed allegations unconfirmed; Among them: A plot to crash planes into a reactor, and missing suitcase-size Soviet atomic weapons." Philadelphia Inquirer (15 March 2006) A7.

csloat's suggested changes

Compromise version

how about a section on Russian nukes

new edit wars?

RfC: Should this page include material that does not mention "nuclear terrorism"?

private ownership

one more item

RfC on disputed material

legal definition?

Pakistan

disruptive editing

Radiological assassinations

"Nuclear 9/11"

'Obama administration' section

Hollywood fantasy, not helped by exaggeration and scaremongering

Citation redirect loop on #12

Move discussion in progress

Move discussion in progress

Lost plutonium?

New Section

to interested editors

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