Talk:Steven Furtick

The justification for Furtick having his own page on the Elevation talk page is that he's a controversial figure. Yet, he has no controversy section to detail this. The page is only basic information that, while informative and true, is unimportant for why he is a controversial figure and why he should have his own page. This information should either be included here, or this page should be merged with the Elevation Church Page. Ebgraham —Preceding undated comment added 17:04, 8 October 2011 (UTC).

But you can't even definitively say that Steven Furtick has done anything controversial regarding the cerebral palsy case. In the instance of Ted Haggard, you essentially list a bunch of negative qualities about him and then say, "he was invited to speak at Furtick's church." What is the controversy? Ltwin (talk) 19:24, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

The controversy was a media storm around both incidents. (a) about discrimination regarding the boy, which caused resentment in the church and the community (from personal firsthand knowledge of the situation) and (b) about whether or not Ted Haggard should be allowed at the church. I don't agree that Steven Furtick should have his own page, but since he does, these should be reflected on it. Adding back in and will continue to do so.Ebgraham (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

1)The removal of the boy is not about Steven Furtick. It is about the church he pastors. There is a whole paragraph which intimately describes the incident from both perspectives, and Steven Furtick is not the subject of the story. This belongs on the church's page.

2) To start with, you cannot use a wikipedia article as a source. Wikipedia only uses reliable sources. Wikipedia, by its very nature, is not a reliable source. Now while the phrase "accused meth user, closet homosexual, and male prostitute client" is indeed sourced, and no one doubts that all that stuff happened, the way you have phrased it is shameful and unnecessary. If a description of why Haggard is controversial was needed, there are better ways of doing it. However, it isn't needed. You provide no context for why this is supposedly controversial. I can only imagine, from reading the article, it is controversial because gay members were let down that Furtick didn't condone homosexuality. You didn't write that though. All you did was write the above description of Haggard, which is guilt by association and not encyclopedic. In short, I see nothing that indicates a controversy. Who is saying there is a controversy? Ltwin (talk) 22:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

added source for Ted Haggard's invite being controversial. Leaving in "accused meth user, closet homosexual, and male prostitute client" because that is exactly why he was controversial. You're right about the wikipedia source...I'm new at this but will change name to link instead. [edit: Numerous news stories reference Ted Haggard's speaking as a controversy including the added reference and this sotry: http://sandhills.news14.com/content/top_stories/608329/disgraced-pastor-speaks-at-charlotte-church/ You seem to be the only person in doubt that there was controversy.Ebgraham (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)] Leaving in the story about the boy because Furtick is not only founder but also head pastor and, therefore, responsible for all the other pastor's in his church. The situation reflects badly on him and should be included on his personal page.Ebgraham (talk) 20:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how seriously Wikipedia takes the biographies of living persons. If not, you should definitely read WP:BLP. Just because an article is written about an event (in this case Ted Haggard speaking at Elevation) does not mean it is controversial. To establish that there is a controversy, the sources we cite must say there was a controversy. Then, when we mention the controversy in this article, we must say why it was controversial. None of the articles you cite say that Furtick is controversial because he let Ted Haggard speak in his church. The burden of proof is on you to show there is a controversy here using reliable sources.

Now about the removal of the boy, you write yourself "(possibly Furtick)". This is a biography of a living person, if we're gonna write anything on here, we have to get it right. Ltwin (talk) 05:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

You didn't read the source I added. Direct quote "Steven Furtick, lead pastor of Elevation Church in Charlotte, N.C., knew inviting the disgraced pastor who was involved in a sex and drugs scandal was controversial" and from http://sandhills.news14.com/content/top_stories/608329/disgraced-pastor-speaks-at-charlotte-church/, "Elevation pastors say the controversy is not just a story about the preacher's downfall, but about forgiveness." that meets the burden of proof. will take out the "Possiby Furtick"Ebgraham (talk) 05:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

You are putting your own meaning into the source. Furtick is talking about the Ted Haggard's actions as being controversial, not his speaking at the church. You have shown nothing which says Ted Haggard speaking at the church was controversial, except that gays and lesbians who attend Elevation were upset that Furtick did not condone homosexuality. If you want to put that in, then the sources would support that. Ltwin (talk) 05:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you still not read it? "Furtick...knew inviting the disgraced pastor...was controversial"Ebgraham (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I read it. There was no controversy noted, except that LGBT persons were upset that Furtick did not condone homosexuality. Is this the controversy you are referring to? If so, say so in the article. If not please tell me who is upset about Haggard's appearance. What news articles mention people upset over this? If this is controversial, then there has to be actual people saying that it is controversial. Ltwin (talk) 17:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. Even though this is Steven Furtick's page and he said that it was a controversial decision you have decided that it was not? Leaving it in until you produce a source of Furtick saying it was not controversial.Ebgraham (talk) 00:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it's controversial Ridintherails (talk) 14:54, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

The point is you have cited nothing which shows that someone else thinks its controversial. Let me ask you, who is upset by this? Furtick isn't. Furtick is not opposing his own actions. Who dislikes this? Who is the other side of the controversy? Furtick cannot have a controversy with himself. Where is the proof that there is a controversy???????? Furtick probably does believe his actions would be controversy, but unless there is someone who is saying "I don't like this" or "this isn't right" there isn't much of a controversy. You have cited neither. Ltwin (talk) 00:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

It's clear Ltwin is one of Furtick's "goats" and will fight anything negative about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.190.159.57 (talk) 17:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm no one's "goat." If you actually look at the article history for both Furtick and Elevation Church you will see I have fought to keep things as close to the sources as possible and relevant to this article. I find it funny that an unidentified anonymous user is making accusations of such a nature. Any way, you are probably new here so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just direct you to WP:AGF, Wikipedia's guideline on "assuming good faith" which all contributors are expected to follow. Ltwin (talk) 17:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Just joining in here after making some edits to the bibliography for Furtick. I'm on Ltwin's side here. I believe the cerebral palsy controversy has little to do with Furtick and everything to do with the church itself. Although Furtick is the lead Pastor, the source states it was a volunteer who removed the boy and that Furtick's response was to order special needs training for his staff. There seems to be no controversy on the part of Furtick here. No source that I can find accuses him of any controversy, unless you count declining the meeting with the mother after the media was involved, which would be the smart choice for any public figure.

As for Haggard, this is even more clearly not a controversy. The sources refer only to Furtick's belief about the controversy, saying "he knew" it was controversial to invite Haggard, but state no outside opinions on the matter being controversial, so I would consider Furtick's claim of controversy to be marketing for his church rather than a high quality source.

Based on the positions in WP:BLP on Balance, Challenged or Likely to Be Challenged, and People Who are relatively Unknown I am removing this content from the article and placing it here in case further sources are cited. The WP:CRITICISM rule also applies here, specifically Avoid sections and articles focusing on "criticisms" or "controversies". Given that this is the Biography of a Living Person, I feel it is appropriate and proper to remove this content immediately. I agree that the Haggard "controversy" is valuable in terms of characterizing Furtick and would definitely support this information make its way back into the article if it is fit into the context of the article and not broken into a controversy section. If the cerebral palsy incident is not already included in the article for Furtick's church, it should probably be there instead. Eventhewise (talk) 02:24, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Controversy Section from Article

Furtick invited Ted Haggard, the former pastor of New Life Church of Colorado Springs, Colorado, who resigned amid a drug and homosexual sex scandal,^[1][2] and his wife to take part in an interview at his church in April 2009. Furtick stated that the purpose of the invitation was neither "a gesture of endorsement nor of condemnation".^[3][4]

Furtick has received attention for his church's treatment of a child with cerebral palsy. The child's mother stated that they were escorted to the church's lobby after the child said "his own kind of Amen" during the 2011 Easter service. The church defended its action, saying the child was not removed from the church but only escorted to another section of the church to watch the service. The mother and church officials had planned to meet to discuss the incident; however, the meeting was cancelled after the mother contacted the media. Even though the pastor canceled the meeting with the mother, he called the Mecklenburg County ARC, an advocacy group for the disabled, and asked for special needs training for his staff. When Helms was told of this, she said that "this was the answer to [her] prayers."^[5]

I added some depth about Furtick's Love Week initiative including some more sources. Any other editors who'd like to offer help on this section would be greatly appreciated. I tried to stick closely to the sources, but I feel like it might read a little too promotional, even so. Any editors who can contribute to helping this section meet WP:NPOV would be very appreciated! Eventhewise (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I am going to remove the recent addition of content to this section referencing the Emerging Church, as the source appears to be a self-published blog and cites only self-published blogs as references, thus making it an unreliable source for biographical information (WP:BLP, "Avoid self-published sources"). Solongagothegarden (talk) 16:24, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I have removed this addition. It is not neutrally worded: "readily apparent... a clear conflict". StAnselm (talk) 22:04, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I will reword it and resubmit. JFTR, Eventhewise and 71.68.60.201 are consistently editing this page and the Steven Furtick pages to eliminate lots of information that while they may not like, and reflects poorly on the church and Furtick -- is accurate. This doesn't seem like it's in keeping with the spirit of Wiki. How can we make them stop? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ridintherails (talk • contribs) 22:38, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, hold on, that's a heavy accusation, Ridintherails. I have been active on this page and many other Christian pages for over a year. And if you'll review the edits, you'll notice -I- am the one who added this story to the article in the first place. In my removals I am only interested in upholding NPOV and BLP. The information you added about co-mingling of funds is properly cited AND inaccurate. Another article by the same author for the same publication specifies that the church was paid by the publisher for providing marketing services. The non-profit did not pay for the m0arketing, the non-profit performed the marketing work at the expense of the publisher, this is not "resume" information, it's in the source. Quote: "Third, the publisher pays the church outright to produce slick videos marketing the book, although the church won’t say how much"^[1] Remember another part of the spirit of Wiki, Assume Good Faith. BLP has very specific guidelines and we must be careful. I definitely appreciate your desire to improve this article, but you must be careful how you do it, on the Elevation Church page you attempted to cast aspersions on the financial integrity of an entire church by questioning what the church said versus some outdated statistics on the wikipedia page when the article you were citing gave you updated statistics with which you could have improved the article, rather than using the wikipedia page to draw conclusions. It is firmly not our job on wikipedia to draw lines and connect dots, but merely to report encyclopedic information as it has been collected and dispersed by other organizations. Please hear my heart in this, I am not trying to sugar coat anything, but rather be very careful to be accurate, especially in the case of a BLP, like this one.Eventhewise (talk) 03:10, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I stand by every word of my statement. Clear as day, you're a shill. Ridintherails (talk) 14:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

"you attempted to cast aspersions on the financial integrity of an entire church by questioning what the church said versus some outdated statistics on the wikipedia page"

If those stats are outdated you need to update Furtick's page, because the $3.4 million figure still appears there. You should have left it alone, you're gonna like it less when I'm done this time.....and it will be to the letter of the law!!!

Ridintherails, let's be clear. We are to assume good faith in each other on wikipedia, are we not? Every bit of the language you added to both articles was derogatory to the subject, and I don't mean the facts were derogatory, I mean the language you use. To reference what you said on your Talk page, on Wikipedia we do not use quotes around things like "annual report" when they don't meet our guidelines of what that might be called. We can cite a source that defines annual report (and in this case for a non-profit) or a source that claims that what they release does not meet the requirements of an annual report, but we cannot draw that conclusion on our own.

Thanks for pointing out that the old info is still on Furtick's page, I will update that with the information from this article: ^[1].

A threat to make me like this article less is a hollow threat, since A. I don't have a dog in this fight, except that this article be fair, like every article is expected to be, and B. this is a Biography of a Living Person and there are very, very specific rules we must follow. You are not the sole wikipedia police. This article has been contributed to by a dozen people who run the gamut from supporters of Furtick, to critics, to academics and neutral parties. Nothing you have edited on this article or Elevation Church's article has been to the letter of the law as of yet, and I am not the only one who has undone your edits. Additionally, and most importantly, you have been so kind to make your very apparent bias public, which will make it very easy to remove future edits to this page that attempt to discredit the subject. I began editing this article and a few more in my spare time over a year ago because in each of them, there was clear bias in the writing and a bent to discredit the subject. Wikipedia's place in not discredit anyone, simply to chronicle what has been reported and is of encyclopedic value. I would have thought that the response to your complaint towards me on the Help Desk would have assuaged your fire, since the editor who responded made it clear you were in the wrong. If you choose to edit this article, be wise, I will defend it against your bias and keep it NPOV. I restate my offer on your Talk Page, that we can work together to make this article better if you feel it is lacking. I am fine adding potentially harming content to this article if it is NPOV, well-cited, and encyclopedic. We can work together, but if your choice is to start a war on this page because you think I am a shill, then you have missed an opportunity to gain a friend and a co-worker to improve this article. Best, Eventhewise (talk) 17:12, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I've come across some material on Steven Furtick which might be relevant to the article. For example, it says here that Furtick's church took in $33.5 million in offerings last year, gave out $3.8 million in outreach, spent $9 million on "personnel", and retained $13.9 million in cash - leaving $6 million unaccounted for. PiCo (talk) 03:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of close editing for consistency. For instance: is it Charlotte; Charlotte, North Carolina; Charlotte, NC; Charlotte, N.C.? There are multiple issues like this throughout the article, particularly regarding names, numbers, and money. Surely Wikipedia has a style that addresses these sorts of thing; I know that the website at least calls for consistency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:300:4200:BD80:D85A:F9E6:7852:23CC (talk) 02:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Steven Furtick.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:22, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi, have removed this section as undue and unencyclopedic. The house on 19 acres has 5 bedrooms and cost $325,000 which is not remarkable. It was the subject of a short term media coverage but not long-term coverage, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:36, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

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The information is not correct with current evangelical views, he is also more pentecostal than evangelical in his sermons and opinions 210.8.169.146 (talk) 10:24, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EnIRtpf09b^{chat with me} 10:34, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

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Need to replace Neo-Charasmatic with Neo-Charismatic, and link to the existing page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-charismatic_movement 2601:42:100:1E90:EC35:A040:1593:BF5 (talk) 22:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 23:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

• What I think should be changed (include citations):

|| 1. Remove "Baptist" from the intro. ^{[1] [2]} || 2. Add New York Times Bestselling author to the intro. ^{[3] [4]} || 3. Add GRAMMY® Award-winning songwriter to the intro. ^[5] || 4. Add Steven Furtick's new book under the bibliography section: Furtick, Steven (2024). Do The New You: 6 Mindsets to Become Who You Were Created to Be. FaithWords. ISBN 978-1546006824. ^[6]

• Why it should be changed:

|| 1. Steven Furtick & Elevation Church withdrew from the Southern Baptist Convention in 2023 || 2. Multiple books made it to the New York Times Best Seller's List (Do The New You & Crash the Chatterbox) || 3. Steven Furtick won a GRAMMY for Best Contemporary Christian Music Album (Old Church Basement) at the 64th Annual GRAMMY awards || 4. His book, Do The New You was released on February 13, 2024

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Justinrosales-elevation (talk) 19:10, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Partly done I removed the detail that he was baptist but did not add the details in the intro paragraph on him being NYT bestseller or Grammy Winner due to concerns about WP:ADVERT. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 16:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The categories section lists Furtick as a Baptist writer, Southern Baptist minister, and a 21st-century Baptist ministers from the United States. Since Elevation left the Southern Baptist Convention, does Furtick still identify as a Baptist? Flipperndipper (talk) 08:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)