User talk:Kristos

Hi @Kristos! I saw you revert the sourced edit on the estimation of the casualties. Could you explain why you consider the figure demographically impossible? The cited source explicitly gives a figure of more than six million Oromo civilian deaths during the wars of the 1870s–1890s. I'm away at the moment, so I may not be able to reply again until later. Johannes Klarnus-Pettersen (talk) 00:38, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, Johannes. More precisely, I don't think the number is impossible per se; there are other sources which also note that the Oromo population was cut in half (from about ten million to five million) during that time (de Salviac 1901, Bulatovich ~1900). But there's a problem with the sourcing. Gemeda's book mentions "more than six million" as a war-death figure in a sentence which is neither footnoted nor cited nor explained in terms of methodology or source. There was also no census performed at that time in the region in question, so all figures from that period should be considered rough estimates rather than documented numbers. Moreover, Gemeda's number is actually higher and more specific (only the deaths from the war) than the numbers in the historiography from which the author apparently quotes. In view of the importance of the claim (comparison with genocides of the 20th century), WP:REDFLAG requires a source which can demonstrate its methodology and explain how it was obtained, not just an assertion from a secondary source, repeated by other writers. Kristos (talk) 00:45, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Hi again! Thanks for clarifying. I agree that the lack of reliable census data means these figures should be treated as estimates rather than precise casualty totals. I also appreciate the clarification that you don't consider the figure impossible per se. My concern is more with whether the estimate should be removed altogether. Gemeda explicitly gives a figure of more than six million Oromo civilian deaths during the wars,^[1] but there are also other sources describing losses on a comparable scale. Asafa Jalata, for instance, cites Martial de Salviac's estimate that war, war-induced famine and disease, and slavery reduced the Oromo population from around 10 million to 5 million.^[2] Richard Reid likewise quotes Bulatovich's contemporary account that "more than half of the population" was annihilated during the conquest, while Reid himself states that there could be little doubt about the extreme violence accompanying the new dispensation of power in southern Ethiopia and describes the expansion as a "destructive and violent imperialism".^[3]

I agree that these figures are necessarily uncertain given the lack of reliable census data, and that Gemeda's figure is more specific, so I wouldn't present six million as an established death toll. But given that figures of losses on this scale appear in several sources and are discussed by modern scholars, I think it would be more appropriate to clearly attribute the figure to Gemeda in the infobox, for example, rather than omit it entirely. Johannes Klarnus-Pettersen (talk) 23:00, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, it is helpful context. In my view, the figure should be kept rather than removed, considering its wide circulation. At the same time, there is a nuance to pay attention to.

Firstly, as far as I understand the information, the rough estimation of five million used by Jalata and Reid refers to the total population decrease due to war, famine, disease, and enslavement during about thirty years. Moreover, Jalata uses the phrase "according to some estimates." Reid also mentions Bulatovich's estimate as an illustration of how a contemporary observer described the scale and nature of the violence, but not as a death toll.

Secondly, Gemeda's six million is a more specific but also higher estimate: war deaths, not population decline, and still without any sources. Thus, combining Gemeda's estimate with the others in the infobox will distort the meaning and sourcing of the figures.

In my view, there is a way to keep both estimations while preserving their meaning: "According to contemporary observers Martial de Salviac and Alexander Bulatovich, later cited by scholars such as Asafa Jalata and Richard Reid, the Oromo population was cut in half (from an estimated ten million to five) between 1870 and 1900 as a result of war, famine, disease, and enslavement. Eshete Gemeda separately claims a figure of more than six million deaths caused by war, without specifying the source." There will be two estimates, two references, and no mixing them up.

Moreover, I would suggest using the body text to present this information rather than the infobox, because the data is disputable and comes from several sources. A one-line figure would ignore all the caveats mentioned above. Perhaps it is better to write about it in the body text and mention "estimates vary" in the infobox with a reference. Kristos (talk) 02:44, 5 September 2026 (UTC)