User talk:Woscafrench

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August 2016

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A summary of site policies and guidelines you may find useful

Please sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes (~~~~, found next to the 1 key), and please do not alter other's comments.
"Truth" is not the criteria for inclusion, verifiability is.
We do not publish original thought nor original research. We merely summarize reliable sources without elaboration or interpretation.
Reliable sources typically include: articles from magazines or newspapers (particularly scholarly journals), or books by recognized authors (basically, books by respected publishers). Online versions of these are usually accepted, provided they're held to the same standards. User generated sources (like Wikipedia) are to be avoided. Self-published sources should be avoided except for information by and about the subject that is not self-serving (for example, citing a company's website to establish something like year of establishment).
Articles are to be written from a neutral point of view. Wikipedia is not concerned with facts or opinions, it just summarizes reliable sources. This usually means that secular academia is given prominence over any individual sect's doctrines, though those doctrines may be discussed in an appropriate section that clearly labels those beliefs for what they are.

Reformulated:

"Truth" is not the only criteria for inclusion, verifiability is also required.
Always cite a source for any new information. When adding this information to articles, use <ref>reference tags like this</ref>, containing the name of the source, the author, page number, publisher or web address (if applicable).
We do not publish original thought nor original research. We're not a blog, we're not here to promote any ideology.
A subject is considered notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.
Reliable sources typically include: articles from magazines or newspapers (particularly scholarly journals), or books by recognized authors (basically, books by respected publishers). Online versions of these are usually accepted, provided they're held to the same standards. User generated sources (like Wikipedia) are to be avoided. Self-published sources should be avoided except for information by and about the subject that is not self-serving (for example, citing a company's website to establish something like year of establishment).
Articles are to be written from a neutral point of view. Wikipedia is not concerned with facts or opinions, it just summarizes reliable sources. Real scholarship actually does not say what understanding of the world is "true," but only with what there is evidence for. In the case of science, this evidence must ultimately start with physical evidence. In the case of religion, this means only reporting what has been written and not taking any stance on doctrine.
Material must be proportionate to what is found in the source cited. If a source makes a small claim and presents two larger counter claims, the material it supports should present one claim and two counter claims instead of presenting the one claim as extremely large while excluding or downplaying the counter claims.
We do not give equal validity to topics which reject and are rejected by mainstream academia. For example, our article on Earth does not pretend it is flat, hollow, and/or the center of the universe.

Also, not a policy or guideline, but something important to understand the above policies and guidelines: Wikipedia operates off of objective information, which is information that multiple persons can examine and agree upon. It does not include subjective information, which only an individual can know from an "inner" or personal experience. Most religious beliefs fall under subjective information. Wikipedia may document objective statements about notable subjective claims (i.e. "Christians believe Jesus is divine"), but it does not pretend that subjective statements are objective, and will expose false statements masquerading as subjective beliefs (cf. Indigo children). Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Verifiability

Do read WP:VER and obey it! That's what "verifiability" means for Wikipedia. If you change referenced information ever again you will be reported at WP:ANI. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:48, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

June 2017

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by inserting unpublished information or your personal analysis into an article, as you did at Impenitent thief. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Please don't threaten me for disagreeing with you. I linked to a prexisting wikipedia page, that is not original research and for you to claim that it is very dishonest of you. Woscafrench (talk) 18:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

See WP:CIRCULAR: Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. We have rules for editing, it's not bad that you don't know the rules, but you should be willing to learn them. More at Talk:Impenitent thief. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:10, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I added a verifiable source and you deleted it which was hypocritical of you. My source wasn't wikipedia, it was a former Bishop of the Church of England. Are you not worried I might report you for your aggressive behaviour? Woscafrench (talk) 12:16, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I explained you about WP:VER three times (in three places) before giving the above warning. How many times do I have to explain that to you before you get it? Let me make it very clear: in by far the most situations Wikipedia cannot be a source for Wikipedia. Do also read what I wrote at Talk:Impenitent thief. The gist is: if you don't edit by Wikipedia rules, you will be blocked by admins. There are certain edits that are wholeheartedly allowed, while other edits are considered nefarious. Also, you have inserted your own personal opinion in the article and that's not done. I guess that for you the Bible is holy. Well, for Wikipedia the mainstream academic view is holy and it should be respected in all circumstances. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:43, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

See?

<ref name="Ehrman2008">{{cite book|author=Bart D. Ehrman|title=Whose Word is It?: The Story Behind who Changed the New Testament and why|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=lcrUAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA143|year=2008|publisher=A&C Black|isbn=978-1-84706-314-4|page=143}}</ref>

Is a verifiable reference to a reliable source.

[[John_Robinson_(bishop_of_Woolwich)#Redating_the_New_Testament_.281976.29|John Robertson]]

Isn't a verifiable reference to a reliable source. Got it now? Also, Robinson's view is a minority view, see WP:UNDUE, WP:BALANCE, WP:PROPORTION. It is also outdated. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:04, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

You have not explained anything to me. Is your problem with the source I provided that that I provided a link to the wikipedia page about the book, rather than a link to the book itself? Woscafrench (talk) 16:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

First, the cited source is too old and it is a minority view, so it should not be cited anyway. Second, yes, in general, you have to cite specific pages of a book/article, instead of linking to other Wikipedia articles. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

In what way is it "too old"? Does being more than a decade or two old make a book ineligible to be used as a source in wikipedia? Woscafrench (talk) 21:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history)#What is "recent" scholarship in history?. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:56, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

You didn't quite answer my question there, could you please try again? Woscafrench (talk) 22:19, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Robinson's view did not stick in mainstream scholarship. It is therefore outdated. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

This view appears to be original research on your part. I could not find it in the source you cited Woscafrench (talk) 12:18, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

You want to cite it, you have the WP:BURDEN to show that is accepted by a large part of mainstream Bible scholars. I.e. despite Ehrman's statement about almost universal assent for the gospels being written some decades after the death of Jesus. Does Robinson's view pass the WP:CHOPSY test? I guess not. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:36, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't want to cite it. You made me cite it after refusing to accept (the undeniable truth) that there is no way of knowing when the New Testament was written. Are you not even a little interested in the truth of that claim? Rather than just parroting someone else's opinions? Robinson was a lecturer at Cambridge, so I imagine his views would pass the WP:CHOPSY test. Woscafrench (talk) 18:37, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

We speak about what is taught as fact at CHOPSY now, not 40 years ago. Here we are not interested about WP:THETRUTH, see WP:VNT. All we do around here is "parroting someone else's opinions". If you don't like this, leave. This whole website is a huge appeal to authority, nothing else. Wikipedia is only interested in editors' competence to cite reliable sources for verifying information. Wikipedia is not meant for venting your opinion or my opinion or another editor's opinion. It is only meant to render what has been published in reliable sources, and all this according to WP:UNDUE, WP:BALANCE, WP:PROPORTION, WP:FRINGE and so on. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

If Wikipedia had been available around the sixth century B.C., it would have reported the view that the Earth is flat as a fact and without qualification. And it would have reported the views of Eratosthenes (who correctly determined the earth's circumference in 240BC) either as controversial, or a fringe view. Similarly if available in Galileo's time, it would have reported the view that the sun goes round the earth as a fact, and if Galileo had been a Vicipaedia editor, his view would have been rejected as 'originale investigationis'.

— WP:FLAT

Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

I should also remind you of WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTFREESPEECH. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:45, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Pontius Pilate

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Herbert McCallum. I've been dealing with this person for the past few days, and HaileyNKim is obviously a sock of them. As such, all edits by them should be reverted on sight, per WP:BLOCKEVASION; this includes edits to talk pages. It would also be wise for you to see WP:DNFTT if you haven't already. SkyWarrior 14:14, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this is probably a sock puppet who is not adding anything valuable, and if their accounts are banned for that reason that seems fair enough. In the case of their edit to the talk page I think chastising them there for wasting people's time with a joke no-one was laughing at would do more to defuse the situation than just deleting the comment and waiting for them to come back. Woscafrench (talk) 14:41, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Ipuwer

I apologise for reverting your reversion of my deletion of the Ipuwer papyrus, but I promise it will get a mention, along with things like the Apiru and the tempest stele. PiCo (talk) 01:36, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Cubic honeycomb

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Edit summary

What is this supposed to mean? Do you not understand the purpose of the edit? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 03:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello. No I do not really understand the purpose of your edit. Did you read the article before you edited it? You mass edited so many articles in such a short period of time, that I think the answer to that question is "no". One of the reasons you cited for making your change was a suggestion that the language was editorialising, but that suggestion doesn't seem to match the text you edited. The edits in your editing spree were so similar, it made me wonder if you were running a script of some sort to do it. Woscafrench (talk, contribs) 12:11, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Nope, not running a script. It's pretty easy to do a search for articles with that phrase, find it in the article, and reword it properly. And how does my edit not perfectly match my edit summary? Did you click on either of the links in my edit summary (one is to an essay; the other to an MOS)? I can't imagine that you did otherwise it would make perfect sense. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 12:48, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

The edit you made was to remove the bracketed part of this sentence:

While this is the standard usage of the term "normalizer" in Lie algebra, [it should be noted that] this construction is actually the idealizer of the set S in

{\mathfrak {L}}

Your edit summary did not match, as there was no editorialising in that sentence, or at least any editorialising that was done was entirely legitimately trying to explain the subject mater, rather than pushing some POV. That being said, I think I reverted you prematurely and should have just left a note on your talk page as I've come round to your edit since I first saw it. The "it should be noted that" was a bit redundant considering that the sentence began "While". However, doing a quick check of a few of your other edits, I quickly found a couple which have obscured the meaning of the sentence for no gain at all, here and here. That last edit completely failed to spot the sort of original research that I think the manual of style was warning you to look out for! Woscafrench (talk, contribs) 14:34, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

We'll just have to agree to disagree as it doesn't look like you're comprehending it. If I happen to spot another issue as I am making those changes, I will, but OR is generally not something I'm looking for. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 16:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions alert

Removing God from the Bible

Hi W. I should explain what I mean by conservative Christians (and Jews) removing God from the Old Testament/Tanakh. I mean that they turn everything into history. At the extreme (and I'm not saying this is your position), they say that God created the world 6000 years ago over a period of 6 days because that's what the Bible says. They're right, it does, but those who tell them they're wrong because this contradicts science are also wrong. It's wrong not because it contradicts science (or rather, is contradicted by science) but because it ignores the intention of the passage, which is about God's plans for Israel. In other words, Genesis 1-2 and the biblical chronology are statements about God, not about the world.

Less extreme conservatives will allow that Genesis 1-2 can be read in ways that accommodate modern science, but still hold that the rest of Genesis and the Exodus story are real history. This is very difficult to argue these days, and only a few respectable scholars will do so (Hoffmeier and Kitchen, most notably). Their essential position is a Christian one: Jesus, a man, was also God, appearing in history; the Old Testament records that history, and must therefore be accurate, or else the New Testament record of Jesus as Christ cannot be trusted. So they reserve their theology for the Resurrection, and reduce the Exodus to reportage.

But the Tanakh is a Jewish book, not a Christian one. The article on the Exodus, for example, has a grotesquely long section about the historicity of the Exodus, because that's what interests Christian - the historical reality of the Exodus guarantees the historical reality of the Resurrection and the Christ-hood of Jesus. It's not really about that at all, it's about God's revelation of himself to Israel and his strength and faith with them. I'd like to get rid of that section, but I can't (despite what you might think, I don't always have my way on these articles). I'd like to see much more on what Exodus and the law codes and the rest tell us about God and his care for Israel, but very few Wikipedia editors share such concerns.

As for the article Yahweh, the etymology of the name is a red herring, like the historicity of the Exodus. Christians and Christian-influenced Jews (they don't even realise they're influenced by Christian theology) think it matters if YHWH is derived from a verbal root meaning existence because (they believe) this demonstrates that YHWH/God is creator of the universe (although "I am that I am" isn't a statement of creation). Quite possibly they're right, quite possibly it is derived from such a root, as Frank Moore Cross first theorized (that's in our article), but it doesn't matter: what really matters is that YHWH both was and is the strength and hope of Jewish people through all their history.

I'm tired of Wikipedia, honestly. PiCo (talk) 23:50, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi PiCo. Just to recap: on Talk:Yahweh you appeared to say at one point that you wanted to put God back into the Bible, which I asked you about , and you have responded to that here. I haven't replied for four months, since I'm still not quite able to piece together what you're saying. For example, I don't understand why you think that Christians would care about the historicity of the Exodus whereas Jews wouldn't, I also can't see how someone could argue that the origin of YHWH's name "demonstrates that YHWH/God is creator of the universe". It may be the case you have some religious insight that I lack. Woscafrench (talk) 22:33, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

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June 2019

Your account has been blocked indefinitely because it is suspected that it has been compromised. If your account is locked, please contact ca

wikimedia.org. Otherwise, if you are able to confirm that you are the user who created this account, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section), then add this below the block notice on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=your reason here ~~~~}}.Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello @Writ Keeper: I am the user that created this account. I can email some ID to an administrator if that would help? Would cawikimedia.org be the right address for that? Woscafrench (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't think so; that address is just for if your account is globally locked, which yours isn't. If there's a current admin that you know who can vouch for you, emailing them would be good, I think. I can also ask a checkuser to check your account, though I don't know how helpful that might be. I know the guidance is that compromised accounts are *usually* not unblocked; if you want, I can remove the account creation block, and you can create a new account and use that. I also know that losing one's edit history hurts, though, so I'm open to seeing what can be done; I know it's not unprecedented for a compromised account to get unblocked, once it's recovered.

Just so I'm clear, though: this account was compromised, correct? These edits, made almost a year after the previous edits on this account, suggest so. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:20, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I made those two edits. I think the IP of the first one would be the same IP for many of my edits last year if that is evidence of some sort for a checkuser? I'll try to see if there's an administrator who I can send an email to. Woscafrench (talk) 19:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm, okay. They were pretty weird-looking edits, if you'll excuse my saying so; the one on Gråbergs Gråa Sång's talk page raised particular alarms, given that we deal with a lot of "subscribe to PewDiePie" nonsense from one-off vandals. That, plus the time gap between those and your last edits, is why I thought the account was compromised. Anyway, I'm happy to admit that I was wrong and apologize, and I'll unblock your account. Before I do, though, do you mind explaining a little bit about those edits? Not like an unblock request or anything, I'll unblock regardless; I'm still just wondering about the edits. Thanks, Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Woscafrench has posted a comment on my talk page before, a few years ago. Tho I don't recall any other interaction, the name does seem familiar. hmmmmm... nope, I've had a think and still can't recall anything else. Possibly some ANI thread? But anyway, every rational person loves me. So that's not worrying. I do share a concern about the post on User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång, tho. That seems like trolling, or making threats, or loonieness, or bringing off-wiki disputes on-wiki, or ... something not good. GGS seems to be undistrubed by it, but that kind of post should not happen again. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Woscafrench (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log) • SI)

Request reason:

Yes those edits were a bit strange. "... something not good" is an accurate discription of this ugly situation. I can stay off that man's talk page (and stop talking about him on wikipedia) if that helps with things at all?. Sorry Floquenbeam, I felt compelled to to balance out my negativity with something positive, but I didn't put enough thought into it (I am a bit stressed at the moment). Woscafrench (talk) 18:58, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Simply agreeing that these edits were "strange" is not an explanation. Looking at this with a cynical eye, your responses are pretty much exactly what one might expect from a person who had successfully compromised an old account (an offer to email ID is useless when the original account owner (and their email address) is anonymous, and as an "experienced" user your probably aware of the fact that we cannot check the IP data for edits from as far back as 2018). This unblock request actually serves to convince me that Writ Keeper was correct to block this account in the first place, and as such, I am declining the appeal. Yunshui ^雲 _水 07:22, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

@Floquenbeam: - I have evidence to prove that I am Woscafrench, but I have not been able to find an administrator who is willing to look at it. Would you be willing for me to email you it? I appreciate you may be busy right now, I can wait until you get back. Woscafrench (talk) 20:19, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

You can mail it. You may need to turn on WP email so you can do it thru Special:Emailuser/Floquenbeam. Not sure what kind of evidence would prove this, but I'll take a look if you're in no rush. @Writ Keeper:, from your comment above, it seems like if I believe this is the same person, you're OK with an unblock; is that still true? *Iff* that's the case, my inclination would be to formalize their assurance that they will not mention or interact with Gråbergs Gråa Sång as an unblock condition. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:31, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Yessss...I'm okay with that. Honestly, I'm a bit puzzled about this whole thing; my gut (very tentatively) says unblock, but I trust Yunshui as a general rule, so I didn't really want to go against their judgment, especiqllu when I'm not particularly confident in my own. I also trust you, though, so if you're good for an unblock once you get the email, so am I. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)