Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WTA 125 Circuit
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 20:00, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
WTA 125 Circuit
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- WTA 125 Circuit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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A lot of this is selective sourcing and an extreme stretch to say the events are related. Those are not historic names for the newly created WTA 125 Tour. We have the WTA 125 tournaments article already well formed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:54, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
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Established Functional Lineage (1974–2026) This article is not a redundant list; it documents the essential "second tier" of the WTA. This lineage began with the 1974 Virginia Slims Satellite Circuit and the 1976 Women’s Futures Circuit (which became the WTA Avon Futures Circuit. These were founded by Gladys Heldman the WTA, to bridge the gap between developmental and elite play. While the ITF managed this space during an interim period (1985–2011), the WTA’s re-launch of the 125s in 2012 was an explicit return to this original organizational mandate.
The article is grounded in plenty of secondary and primary sources that prove notability for this specific tier of professional tennis. References include John Dolan’s Women's Tennis 1968–84, John Barrett’s World of Tennis* (1981, 1987), and contemporary newspaper records from the Ocala Star-Banner. These sources define these circuits as a structured WTA-led system, not a collection of independent events.
The nominator argues that the topic should be restricted to "WTA 125 tournaments" (the post-2012 name). However, an encyclopedia documents subjects, not just current marketing brands. This subject is the WTA's second-tier professional circuit. Deleting the "Circuit" page in favor of a "Tournaments" list strips away the vital historical context of the WTA Avon Futures Circuit and the earlier developmental tiers.
Moving straight to AfD while refusing to acknowledge sourced history—and while active, constructive was still underway without awaiting any further inputs suggests a "Project Ownership" approach rather than a search for community consensus.
There is no conflict between maintaining a list of specific modern "WTA 125 tournaments" and an overarching "WTA 125 Circuit" (or "Secondary Circuit") article that provides the 50-year historical and structural lineage. Deletion is a disproportionate and destructive response to a simple matter of editorial scope.Navops 47 (talk) 04:09, 7 April 2026 (UTC) | |
- Baloney... I went to prod first and asked you to draft this so the project could look at it and weed out the original research and ridiculous lineage. You ignored that so I went to AfD. And you don't build a WTA 125 Tour lineage on 28 year old weak satellites events from the 70s. You've built this whole thing as if these are all the same thing under different names and that is not accurate at all, and damagingly leads our readers astray of the magnitude of difference with the newer WTA 125 Tour. If this was a simple article name change it would be different, but the fact the women finally got an intermediate tour like the men is historic from the standpoint of womens tennis. The fact they tried satellite events in the late 70s has no bearing on the newer WTA 125 Tour. Does the current WTA acknowledge the direct lineage with past winners carrying from tour to another? The WTA created this new intermediate level tour in 2012 because they needed it. The men have had one for decades. And it's one thing to mention in a sentence that there were past events 50 years ago, but to make it sound like a continuation when for 30 years the women did not have a single unified intermediate tour branded under the WTA because of the huge difference in revenue, historical problems with development, and limited infrastructure. It a fantasy to think otherwise. A lot of this was explained at this post on the talk page, so it's not like I didn't try to explain the huge issues here before putting it up for deletion. This is going to be very a technical, convoluted, and difficult to follow subject for non-tennis editors, and it's why I wanted this draftified for the tennis project to work on fact from fantasy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:53, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- Neutral comment Hatted the above because that is clearly copied from an LLM output; don't do that again, Navops. Nathannah • 📮 18:18, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- Billy Jean King confirms the two tour system was already in place by 1979 when Avon agreed to continue funding the already set up futures circuit, the books at the bottom of the article p.162. Your intial claim from the outset was the WTA was never involved in the setting up a a second tier developmental tour until 2012, in her book period chapter 74 to 80 she credits Heldman, WTA new head Jerry Diamond joining in 1975, the CEO of VS and then Avons involvement enjoy your day. Navops47 (talk) 08:19, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- Baloney... I went to prod first and asked you to draft this so the project could look at it and weed out the original research and ridiculous lineage. You ignored that so I went to AfD. And you don't build a WTA 125 Tour lineage on 28 year old weak satellites events from the 70s. You've built this whole thing as if these are all the same thing under different names and that is not accurate at all, and damagingly leads our readers astray of the magnitude of difference with the newer WTA 125 Tour. If this was a simple article name change it would be different, but the fact the women finally got an intermediate tour like the men is historic from the standpoint of womens tennis. The fact they tried satellite events in the late 70s has no bearing on the newer WTA 125 Tour. Does the current WTA acknowledge the direct lineage with past winners carrying from tour to another? The WTA created this new intermediate level tour in 2012 because they needed it. The men have had one for decades. And it's one thing to mention in a sentence that there were past events 50 years ago, but to make it sound like a continuation when for 30 years the women did not have a single unified intermediate tour branded under the WTA because of the huge difference in revenue, historical problems with development, and limited infrastructure. It a fantasy to think otherwise. A lot of this was explained at this post on the talk page, so it's not like I didn't try to explain the huge issues here before putting it up for deletion. This is going to be very a technical, convoluted, and difficult to follow subject for non-tennis editors, and it's why I wanted this draftified for the tennis project to work on fact from fantasy. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:53, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Tennis-related deletion discussions. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 08:12, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- What? I said there is no correlation between the satellite events of the 70s and the WTA 125s.... none! You are trying to make them the same under different names. That is improper synthesis of the facts. There have been two tiers for years and years with the ITF lower rung and WTA Tour upper rung. While the men have their ITF lower rung, Challenger middle rung, and ATP Tour. The woman have not had a true middle rung since their attempts in the 70s to early 80s. But now they do, finally. Both mens and womens tours experimented with satellite events back in the early Open Era of tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:52, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
Strong Keepbasically this circuit as a developmental second tier level tour is an iteration of early developmental tours with name changes otherwise whats the point of this article 2011 ITF Women's Circuit which clearly says second tier tour as does the other previous 10 articles back to 2001 this is documented in the page! off to make a caramel latte Navops47 (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2026 (UTC)- Note - this is the second "keep from" the same editor. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:31, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
- What? I said there is no correlation between the satellite events of the 70s and the WTA 125s.... none! You are trying to make them the same under different names. That is improper synthesis of the facts. There have been two tiers for years and years with the ITF lower rung and WTA Tour upper rung. While the men have their ITF lower rung, Challenger middle rung, and ATP Tour. The woman have not had a true middle rung since their attempts in the 70s to early 80s. But now they do, finally. Both mens and womens tours experimented with satellite events back in the early Open Era of tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:52, 7 April 2026 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 11:40, 14 April 2026 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.