Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Central Coast Mariners FC

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 16:30, 31 March 2007.

Central Coast Mariners FC

I believe this article meets the featured article criteria. A "good article" since November 28, it follows the club pages manual of style and is fully referenced.

As a note, it had a peer review at the end of November, which mainly focused on structural issues at the time.

In my opinion, one of the best parts about this page is the images, which are generally so lacking in most sports articles. A lot of time and effort has gone in to securing free images from the club and photographers, all of which have permission archived in the OTRS system.

Cheers, Daniel Bryant 06:31, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

====Rmky87's comment====

  • Ref #33 is missing.--Rmky87 13:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
    Indeed it is - it somehow got lost. Restored from history, so  Done. Thanks for that. Daniel Bryant 06:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

====Michaelas10's support====

Support. Very good overall. Excellent prose I must say. Throughout comments:

  • Image:Dean Heffernan2.jpg has a watermark, which is generally disallowed in Wikipedia images.
     Done, with the removal of Heffernan from the section which the image was in, the image went also.
  • Image:Central Coast FC.gif doesn't have a fair use rationale.
     Done
  • "The Marinators also have a Mariners fans forum and web site." - 1) "web site" > "website". 2) Rather trivial information, anything it's notable for?
     Done; not really, no - it is, in effect, unreferenced, so I've removed it.
  • Separate the notes section from the references, seeing as the first note contains improperly formatted references. It might also be confusing for the readers.
    May I ask, how? Use {{note}}? I wasn't sure how to do this.
    Yes. Take a look here. Michaelas10Respect my authoritah 18:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done. Looks much better, thanks. Daniel Bryant 08:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Lacks references for achievements, records, and personnel.
    Doing.
     Done for Achievements. 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done for Notable players; also note the expansion of text is in this section. 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done for Records during the convert-to-prose. 05:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "Socceroos" > "Australia national football team players". ...coping financially.[19] but after forming > No need in a punctuation here, move the reference to the end of the sentence. "They participate in the A-League, and are one > Remove the comma. ...local businessman John Singleton the clubs financial worries were eased - Add a comma after "John Singleton". The Mariners have been able to secure > The Mariners secured. Michaelas10Respect my authoritah 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done. Thanks very much for raising those (I've converted your comment into dot-points for ease of use, I hope you don't mind). Any advice on what to use for the ref/note split would be great. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 06:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

====Oldelpaso's comment====

Oppose I must have missed the peer review for this one. A few (mostly minor) things before this can get my support:

  • Why is Hefferman listed as a star player?
     Done. I don't know, exactly :) I originally thought when it was added he was a Socceroo squad member, but on further checking he isn't. Removed (with the picture, see above).
  • A rivalry with Newcastle United Jets is mentioned in the lead, but is not included anywhere in the body of the article.
    Should I create a separate section for rivalry, or include it in one of the existing ones? I can't see which existing one I could put it in, but on the flip side, The Mariners are only two years, and SFC and NUJ are the only rivals (ie. "F3 derby" and "NSW Cup").
     Done, moved to History section. Daniel Bryant 07:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The use of tenses is mixed in places (I might fix this one myself in the next day or two)
    I would be very greatful if you could - I am hopeless with stuff like that :)
     Done, I believe. Oldelpaso edited this to make some minor copy-editing changes; I presume this was to fix these tense problems. 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The Colours and crest section is a little thin. The second paragraph is a description of away form, which is not connected to the kit itself. The use of "clean sheet" in this context seems odd. Don't know if its different in Aus. Eng., but in Br. Eng. the term is nearly always used when talking about the defending team. Either way, "failed to score" is easier for a non-sports fan to understand.
     Done for the wording. There isn't all that much information on the strip, hence your concern. The most notable part about it is actually the 05-06 away form with the strip, hence why it's there. I'll look around for a little bit more info regarding the colours/badge.
    Haven't been able to find much else, sadly. 05:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Why is the Central Coast Leagues Club "the home of the Mariners"? Oldelpaso 22:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done, removed. It is, really. Directly across from Bluetongue, all post-match stuff occurs there. However, because I recognise that it is really a POV, as such - the CCM offices are at Wyong - and because the reference doesn't point to that info, I've removed it. Thanks for all these suggestions, and I would greatly appreciate it if you could offer some suggestions regarding the comments I made above. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 06:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    Nearly there now. My one concern is that some of the prose in the history section isn't cleanly presented. "Media speculation prior to announcement of the franchises in the new league suggested that the Mariners bid may be favourable due to its new blood, and backing from former Australian national team player and club technical director Alex Tobin, as well as Clean Up Australia personality Ian Kiernan, who would act as club chairman" is the biggest example of this, and should be two or three sentences rather than one. Oldelpaso 20:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
    That particular sentence is checkY Done; however, I'm trying to arrange a copyedit for the full section from an unrelated person. Thanks for that. Daniel Bryant 08:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

====Todd661's support====

A good article from a fantastic editor! Believe me, nobody, more than myself would like to see a Central Coast article featured, however their are a few things I believe need to be fixed up.

  • The lead mentions a rivalry with the Newcastle Jets, yet their is no further detail in the prose. If their is more to add then it should go into the history. If not, that paragraph should be move to the history.
    This issue is mentioned above. I'm actively considering doing as you mention and moving it to the history section (with an appropriate rephrasing), which should solve the problem. The only trouble is, will this make the lead too short?
     Done exactly what you said, see above. Daniel Bryant 07:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • The notable players section lists five players and in its current format shows a POV. I believe this section should detail why and what these players are notable for. The references in this section are also all for either the CCM website or the ALeague website. If these players are indeed notable, then shouldn't they be mentioned in a reliable external source. I personally find it hard to believe that a 2 year old club has had so many notable players.
    I have reworded this section so it clearly states the bar of inclusion in that list is playing international football. This list includes 5 players (Australia: 4; Scotland: 1). I will try and find a couple of references, probably at the same time I add a little bit of content outlining that players' international (notable) career in <two sentences :)
     Done for notable players/personnel; also note the expansion of text is in this section. 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • One thing that this article is definately good for is references. However they are in the wrong places. Achievements and Records should have at least a refernece each, and they should be from an external source. In addition, does the Achievements section need to be completely bolded.
    As noted above, I'm in the process of doing the further referencing. Regarding the bolding of achievements, I'm not exactly sure what you mean (note: MOS). I'd appreciate some further clarification on that point.
     Done for Achievements. 05:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done for Records during the convert-to-prose. 05:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Good article, yet more to do. In the meantime Oppose. SUPPORT.Todd661

Thanks for the input. I'll try and clean everything up over the next couple of days. Daniel Bryant 10:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

====HornetMike's support====

Conditional Support. Good article, but a few things:

  • "The Mariners have a strong rivalry with Newcastle Jets, often referred to as the "F3 derby".[6]" May be a bit biased, but I can't believe that a two-year old derby is that "strong". I'd recommend that the Newcastle Jets rivalry information be included in the fans section, by the way.
     Done, moved from lead.
  • "The Central Coast Mariners' bid for the Football Federation Australia's (FFA) new A-League aimed to fill the space for one regional team in the competition.[8]" I don't understand that at all. I presume it means that the Mariners looked to fill the franchise spot designated for a certain area. But that's not clear from that sentence and needs rephrasing.
    Indeed, it isn't the best wording. Will sleep on it.
     Done, I think that should read better. Daniel Bryant 03:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • "Prior to the 2006-07 season, the Mariners secured the services of then Australian international Tony Vidmar from NAC Breda for two years.[31] This was the Mariners' first marquee signing, following the lead of Sydney FC (Dwight Yorke) and Adelaide United (Qu Shengqing).[32]" What defines a "marquee player" sounds like a bit of arbitary description to me.
    A marquee player is one whose salary falls outside the salary cap. Each club can have one designated marquee player. This is explained in references like (probably the best for an article reference), , , and . I appreciate the concern, and will continue searching for the perfect reference to add to the article to clear up this issue. By the way, I've looked into it, and can link "marquee player" to two places: Salary cap#A-League or A-League#Clubs. Each is unreferenced, but I'll fix that :)
    I think if you just wiki-link "marquee player" to Salary cap#A-League that'll be fine. Cheers, HornetMike 17:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done, too easy :) Daniel Bryant 02:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • ""We all follow a yellow football team" (as the Mariners wear a primarily yellow strip when playing at home)." That can be cut down to "(a reference to the colour of the team's kit)" HornetMike 15:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done. Thanks for that, and all the other, suggestion. I would love a response regarding the marquee player, though. Cheers, and thanks again, Daniel Bryant 07:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

====The Rambling Man's strong support====

Hey, been offline a while so missed an opportunity perhaps, but overall this is a great article. I have only a few very minor comments which you can look at as you see fit.

  • The use of WP:DASH, e.g. the en-dash, for seasons such as 2003-04 ought to be 2003–04.
     Done. Ah, yes, the dashes. Thanks for that.
  • Highest attendance - against whom, was it a significant match, when was it?
    checkY Done, added details; they were in the records anyways, but can't hurt to add it there as well.
  • "..only one football manager.." - it's a clear football article so I'd ditch "football".
    checkY Done
  • Records section, this would be nicer in prose rather than a simple list. See Arsenal F.C. for a good guide on what I'm looking for.
    Will do; I like Arsenal's much better than the present CCM one. Added to to-do list.
     Done, I've converted the recors to prose. I estimate that the Records section is currently at 80% completion; I still want to add a paragraph about how they hold the A-League record for longest undefeated streak at home (nearly 12 months), which recieved a lot of media attention. Shouldn't be too hard, I'll do it in a couple of hours' time. 05:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
     Done fully, see below. Daniel Bryant 10:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Refs 1, 11 & 44 are in the wrong place if you follow WP:CITE strictly. And the citations in the notes section.
    checkY Done for 1 (and 2), and 44. 11 I can't seem to see anything wrong with. I've also fixed the notes section.
    checkY Yes, ref 11 is fine, don't know what I was talking about. The Rambling Man 08:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • In the supporters section there feels to me like an overuse of parentheses, it detracts from the excellent prose.
    checkY Done, fixed.

Hopefully some of that makes sense and/or helps. Great work, all the best. The Rambling Man 19:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it helped lots, thanks so much. I'll get to work regarding the Records, and if you could have a look at Ref 11 for me, that'd be great. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 08:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Let me know when you've rewritten the records section and I'll add my support The Rambling Man 08:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll give you a ping when I've done the last 20%, per above. 05:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 Done, I had to scrap the last 20% because I was mistaken...thank goodness for WP:V :) Notified as per request. Daniel Bryant 10:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Excellent work, so now, as promised, I offer you strong support. The Rambling Man 10:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Cheers, and thanks for all your suggestions (and help, with the en dashes - I still hate swapping them over, despite all the practice I'm getting :D), Daniel Bryant 10:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

====Kyriakos's support====

Support. Great article. Only one comment. Would it be possible to write something about the clubs ownership. Thanks. Kyriakos 12:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your support. Regarding the ownership, I believe that this has been covered in the History section. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 08:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

====Tony1's objection====

Oppose—1a. Before we jump to conclusions ("excellent prose I must say"), let's take a proper look. I've chosen at random the "Colours and badge" section, which I see comprises three stubby paragraphs.

  • "The Mariners home jersey is yellow with a navy left sleeve and stripe on the right sleeve. The companion shorts have a yellow cut up the seam and are matched with yellow socks. Their away uniform is similar, with white jersey and socks and slightly different shorts." Apostrophe missing from the first word. "A" before "stripe". "Running" before "up". "Away" seems very loose in this formal register; is there another word you could substitute for non-expert readers (maybe not)?
    Apostrophe missing from "The"? I don't understand
    I would guess he means the second word - i.e. Mariners' The Rambling Man 09:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
    That would make sense, I guess.  Done. Daniel Bryant 11:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
    Stripe  Done
    Running  Done
    No, "away" is a formal term in this situation, quite clearly meaning "playing away from home".
  • "Away strip"—Do you mean "trip"? Sounds as though they performed a naked display, but that would be reserved for the calendar, surely. This link might be piped to the specific subsection in the related article.
    "Strip" is the common Australian English word for "Playing clothes". WP:ENGVAR; do you know a term which works for all, which admittedly would be better than the current situation.
  • "Whilst"—nowadays, "while" is the norm; please use plain English.
     Done
  • "It is within walking distance of the Gosford railway station"—Remove "the", which is unidiomatic here.
     Done

Then further down:

  • "Stadium" section: lots of subby paras.
    I dispute this; I (and the others above) believe that the paragraphs here are of sufficent length. Instead of waffling to increase the, concise wording was applied. However, I will try and see if there's any more info related to CCM to flesh out the second and third paragraphd (which are shortish).
  • "membership based group"—hyphenate the double epithet.
     Done
  • "and have sponsorships from local businesses in the Central Coast region"—"Have" is ungainly here; where else would "local businesses" be but in the CCR?
     Done

Please don't just correct these issues; they're examples of why a thorough copy-edit is required, preferably by someone who's unfamiliar with the text. Tony 00:56, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this has already been done. However, I am currently trying to find at least one more copyeditor to have a look. Cheers, and thanks for the comments, Daniel Bryant 03:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

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