Talk:2005 Red Lake shootings

I've seen several spellings of Weise, rather than Wiese, the most noteable on his posting to the nationalist messageboards[]. Does anyone know which is correct?--Brendanfox 13:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just came here to say the same thing as you. Unless he deliberately misspelled it on that forum its unlikely that it is actually Wiese. I would favor changing it. — Trilobite (Talk) 14:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

the least someone could do is actually spell his name consistently throughout this article. I mean jumping from Weise to Weiss?? That's professional.

AP news reports age as 17 not 15. Changed on Page --Mitrebox 19:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Local news media in Minnesota and Yahoo.com have reported that Jeff Weise was 17 years of age, not 15. --EisenKnoechel 14:27, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Yahoo.com is now reporting that Jeff Weise was anywhere between 15 and 17 years of age. --EisenKnoechel 14:55, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

The Christian Science Monitor is reporting that Jeff Weise was 16 years old of age. --pjv_b 23:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Is it certain that he was a Goth? It's just that the same thing got said about Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and it turned out they weren't.

If he's a Goth, where was he when they sacked Rome?

I think the media applies the "Goth" label more widely than would the people they label. We really shouldn't assert that he was a Goth unless we have a quote where he self-identifies, or perhaps from someone close to him. Until then, let's make it clear who is calling him a Goth. --cprompt 16:42, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm tired of the media singling out people.

First off, it seems like the media likes to make it appear that every outsider who ends out shooting up the school is a goth kid. Having an unpleasant high school experience myself, the accusations that Goth culture was the motive behind every random act of violence by a white middle-class suburbia teenager are missleading and bias. It is like blaming an Arab person for terrorism. Soon it will be revealed that yes this kid was just another scumbag.--Bushido Hacks 17:29, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Really? I don't remember any of the Minnesota News agencies reporting him as a goth. It's probably the students at the school who named him a goth. Maybe you should look at the profile of a school shooter, I'll bold the ones that Jeff Weise and this crime have exihibited so far:

• AGE - 6-18 years-old. (Most are between 14 and 15-years-old.)
• GENDER - Male.
• RACE - Almost always White.
• IQ - Above average.
• SOCIAL - Isolated--a loner with few friends.
• MOTIVE - To punish those who bullied, tautned, rejected or shamed.
• PRECUSOR - Threat of violence-all said what they were going to do prior to act.
• PERSONALITY - Angry, full of hate, depressed, nerd, weird sense of humor.
• SPECIAL INTEREST - Guns, violent themes (movies, video games, websites, music)
• HISTORY - Cruelty to animals. Slight interest in gangs, occult & white supremacy groups.
• CRIMINAL HISTORY - Usually none.
• FAMILY HISTORY - 55% parents intact, 45% divorced.
• TRIGGER EVENT - Romantic rejection, fear of poor grades.
• LOCATION - Rural or suburban schools.
• AFFILIATION - Enrolled student, not a stranger at the school
• PREDICATABILITY - High (leaves many clues).
• WEAPONS - Semi-automatc handguns
• LOCATION - Where students gather.
• PLANNING - Always planned.
• VICTIMS - Victims always targeted (females common).
• TIME - Over half happened in the middle of the day.

--EisenKnoechel 18:10, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

• Is the victim Weise's Grandmother or his Grandfather's Wife? --Mitrebox 20:06, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Both, I think. And that makes it only one...silly joke about morbid stuff ;) --OleMurder 15:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Michelle Sigana was the girlfriend (common-law wife?) of Daryl Lussier. She is not Weise's birth grandmother.

Perhaps he had an idea of Josef Mengele AKA "Angel of Death" when he gave himself a name, "Angel of Death" anyone verify that? hard to prove though WB 01:17, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

He used "Angel of Death" as a nickname in a forum on the website www.Nazi.org --pjv_b 01:12, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

I know, so maybe a mention that it might have came from Josef Mengele's name. Maybe his killings? -- WB 02:35, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Probably from the Slayer song, or some other song. Black Sabbath in "Psycho Man" is less likely.

Is one of the slain students related to the shooter? There's a fifteen-year-old on the list with the same last name as the shooter's grandfather (Lussier). So the options would be: they are related; it's a coincidence (I doubt it); our information is wrong. In any case, something should be done. If they are related or if that's just a coincidence, we should make a note of either case. If the article is wrong, we obviously need to get the right name for that victim. Regards, Redux 03:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, I have found that names of people on Indian Reservations are normally used for different families.

Whether or not it should have it's on part, is another questions. --insertusernamehere--

this must be done, at all costs!

Actually, I find the use of the term rather ironic, given US history

You may want to read this... http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/11198353.htm Says he was indeed goth...

"...Weise liked heavy metal music and dressed like a "goth," with black clothes, chains on his pants and black spiky hair."

Yeah. So, because he wore black clothes and chains, and listened to heavy metal, he's a Goth. Wrong. This is guilt-by-association. The fact that a professional reporter can't distinguish this is a sad commentary on the state of journalism, but doesn't make it a fact. In the mid 80's, when I was a real Goth, the media called these kids "Punks". And there was much todo about them killing themselves because they listened to Metalica. In the late 60's they were "Radicals". Goth is a code word (figure of speech) to describe today's disaffected youth. Not Jeff Weise.--ghost 30 June 2005 13:30 (UTC)

Miscellany: was wearing bullet-proof vest and taking Prozac Kwantus 16:37, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

I took a long time capitalizing to capital "M", why was it reverted? -- WB 23:25, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

Two reasons:

1. You should never copy and paste moves because it ruins the edit history of an article (which is very important to keep)
2. There is no reason for it to be capitalised

HTH violet/riga (t) 23:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since the redirect page was pre-existing, I could not move... anyway, now I know. I thought it was important to capitalize such events. I guess it doesn't matter so much -- -- WB 00:20, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Manual of Style is that only proper nouns are capitalised - the school name is therefore in capitals but "massacre" is not. For moves that cannot be done using the normal method you can contact an admin to do it for you - Wikipedia:Requested moves is the best place for that. violet/riga (t) 00:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Should this information be included into this article at this time? --EisenKnoechel 17:48, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

• Yes - even if the charges are never filed or later dropped its a relevent development --Mitrebox 06:48, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't see what Bush or Schiavo has to do with this article. I'm taking out the paragraph.--AllanBz 21:08, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Text removed:

President George W. Bush was criticized for not providing an immediate reaction to the shootings as Bill Clinton had done earlier for the Columbine slayings. Some were particularly disgruntled because earlier the same day, Bush had returned from his Crawford, Texas ranch to the White House to sign legislation aimed at keeping Terri Schiavo alive.

I disagree with that the administration's respose was irrelevant to the article. However, reinserting it as is seems to interrupt the flow of the article. So I added the a Washington Post article discussing the issue in References. Some relevant quotes:

"The fact that Bush preempted his vacation to say something about Ms. Schiavo and here you have 10 native people gunned down and he can't take time to speak is very telling," said David Wilkins, interim chairman of the Department of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota and a member of the North Carolina-based Lumbee tribe.

Mr. Bush talked to Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa, for five minutes Friday morning, offering his sympathy for the victims of a teen-ager's shooting rampage and the entire Red Lake community and pledging to provide federal assistance, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

Mr (Clyde) Bellecourt pointed out that Mr. Bush broke off his holiday to sign emergency legislation on Monday concerning the case of a brain-damaged woman, but did not comment then on the Minnesota deaths.

I removed the following from references:

• (CCHR) RED LAKE MINNESOTA - Psychiatric Terror: Another school shooter on psychiatric drugs resulting in 29 dead and 62 wounded...

CCHR is a front group for Scientology and I don't think their contention that flies cause garbage is germane to this article. Also the contributor, 83.248.150.251, made the same edit to several other pages in a way that was clearly vandalism. For example, he added it to the top of the article on psychiatry. Bgeer 5 July 2005 23:46 (UTC)

We really need a statement in the article that he was taking the drugs, though. If that's all we can find, then that should be put in there, Scientologists or not. --Golbez July 6, 2005 00:09 (UTC)

Should the article really group aftermath and trivia together? Furthermore, I think that the word "trivia" is too glib or upbeat for an article about a tragedy. It seems disrespectful, although perhaps Wikipedia's regulations state that trivia is the proper title.

What is common regarding people who use SSRI drugs like prozac is that no blood or tissue levels are taken. There is a wide range of elimination rates for these drugs, so the fact that most people are not violent while taking them does not address the variance in blood levels that exists in the population.

@Second Skin that is a decent source to warrant its removal so that's fine. I do think it's notable that the media said he was into it, and attempted to cast blame on the genre, so maybe it should be added back as a "the media said it but it probably wasn't true" type thing, at some point? There may be other sources that address this. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I have removed all mentions of Jeff liking horrorcore rap music cuz it seems to be media propaganda that was done entirely to stir up a moral panic. Jeff hated rap music. I really recommend watching 56:56 of this YouTube video if you want it nutshelled. But basically here is the evidence:

1. One of his confirmed emails is "fukrap666@hotmail.com"
2. He had made countless posts online condemning those that listen to rap. Source here
3. There is not a single shed of evidence thus far he has ever said he liked Mars or Jimmy Donn or whatever, but rather he said he listened to nu metal bands like Korn or gothic extreme metal stuff like Cradle of Filth (e.g. he mentioned his favorite music numerous times in his online posts and never once did he mention a rap artist of any kind let alone horrorcore)

I would love to see one shed of evidence he ever liked this music besides the media speaking for him that he did, cuz all signs tell that he clearly didn't. The "horrorcore controversy" stuff seems to just be mid-2000s media propaganda. Second Skin (talk) 22:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The media says a lot of things, so it very well could be nonsense, I think it should be addressed that they said that whether it's treated as fact or not as it was widely reported. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean yeah maybe it can say "They said this but evidence suggests otherwise" kind of thing, but really the media does definitely lie. This was especially a big problem in the pre-social media days such as when this shooting happened and people didnt have a voice as much as they do now to question whatever Channel 5 says. Second Skin (talk) 22:21, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This article reports that the killer was inspired by an exchange between Eric Harris at Columbine and Rachel Scott. This is incorrect, the exchange actually occurred between Dylan Klebold and Valeen Schnurr. COLUMBINE MIRACLE: A MATTER OF BELIEF. (n.d.). https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/14/026r-101499-idx.html Wackim59 (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Every once and a while, someone adds a list of wounded victims, and it always gets taken away. I would argue that a list of wounded victims should be added because sources disagree on total number of wounded(ranging from 5 to 9) so a list would be helpful to give a more accurate number. What do y'all think? BadMombo1660 (talk) 01:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

@BadMombo1660 I disagree on the grounds of privacy: the wounded people are alive and living their own lives, and unless they have sought to be interviewed long after it occurred they should perhaps not be mentioned, at least in a list like this. Early sources always disagree, I will see if I can find a more definitive total. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:38, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

but if the wounded victims have already been mentioned by name in reports, has their privacy not already been breached? BadMombo1660 (talk) 14:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The recent edit regarding the alleged "Do you believe in God?" exchange between Eric Harris and Rachel Scott at Columbine High School claimed that the conversation was "debunked." This is untrue. The exchange with Cassie Bernall is the story that was "debunked." Richard Castaldo, the closest living witness to Rachel Scott, initially stated that the one of the gunman (later identified as Eric Harris) asked her if she believed in God. He did not hear her answer, but assumed that she answered in the affirmative, as she was shot in the head following the conversation. Later, Castaldo said that he could not remember the exchange, which led to skepticism as to whether the exchange ever happened, as Cassie's exchange had been disproved. However, it cannot be disproven. Unlike with the Cassie Bernall case, the police never released a statement doubting Eric Harris' "Do you believe in God?" question. In addition, Castaldo was never interviewed by the FBI (he was in critical condition) and as a result, no "life or death question" was included in the official report. We know that Harris said something to Scott before he killed her, as reported by the Denver Post and survivor Mark Taylor, who saw Rachel's death, and it seems that Castaldo's story is the most likely. Early testimonies are also considered more reliable that later, revised editions, so I think it's safe to include this in the article. We'll never know what Scott's answer was, but we cannot say that it was "debunked." It never was. Editor3125 (talk) 21:39, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

It should be renamed to the Red Lake Massacre since that’s what it is referred to most often by media or news outlets. There have been no other incidents of mass shootings at Red Lake, and that This shooting is historical for being the worst shooting at a high school since Columbine. The title is also to precise and doesn’t reflect other articles on here. Like Sandy Hook and The Tumblr Ridge Shooting. Both don’t have shootings in even though the perps relatives were killed at home. ButteyFelicity (talk) 16:23, 29 April 2026 (UTC)

It has been proposed in this section that 2005 Red Lake shootings be renamed and moved to 2005 Red Lake Shooting. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

2005 Red Lake shootings → 2005 Red Lake Shooting – It was called when first reported on “Red Lake Massacre” due to its severity of being the worst mass shooting at an American school since Columbine happened and can be easily more distinguished. If not, the title should be renamed “2005 Red Lake Shooting” as the title doesn’t flow like the Sandy Hook and Tumblr Ridge articles, despite the perpetrators family being gunned down at home first. It would flow more natural. “Shootings” only apply to cases if its at multiple locations, or a spree shooting. This wasn’t shootings.ButteyFelicity (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

Oppose: While you referenced the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and 2026 Tumbler Ridge shooting, your argument is flawed due to its sparse and incomplete pattern matching. There are other shooting and mass murder events that took place at multiple locations like the 1988 Chicago shootings, Christchurch mosque shootings, 2013 Santa Monica shootings, 2014 Isla Vista attacks, Rancho Tehama shootings, 2023 Central Texas shootings where "shootings" is plural in the title.

For shooting events that took place at two or more locations (within a general area), there is a clear pattern:

• If the shooting event is named after a school, then "shooting" is singular in the title because most people think about the school setting of the shooting.
• If the shooting event is named after a city or area, then "shootings" is plural in the title because most people think about the city associated with the shooting.

Since 2005 Red Lake shootings is named after Red Lake, Minnesota and associated with Red Lake Indian Reservation, "shootings" should be plural in the title, for maximal article naming consistency.

I do not support the 2005 Red Lake Massacre suggestion either. Most media refers to the event as a set of shootings, rather than a massacre. Most other shootings that have similar casualty counts are not referred to as "massacres".

The Columbine High School massacre is referred to as a massacre due to its infamy, its contemporary public shock, associated media coverage, and for spawning the Columbine effect. A mass murder event probably should not be referred to as a "massacre" unless it achieves a similar effect to the Columbine school shooting. But since there are unfortunately now many school shootings within the history record, every new school shooting has relatively less infamy among its predecessors, since they each compete for infamy among each other. Zero Contradictions (talk) 10:00, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Your argument is sorta flawed as well with the shootings you presented. The shootings you referenced were Spree Shootings and rampage shootings- all of them taking place at multiple locations with various factors of deaths.It can be argued that Christchurch is an example, but thats a different case as it was two consecutive mass shootings. Another example is the Plymouth Shooting- The mom was killed at home but it wasn’t called shootings.

And yes the Red Lake Shooting was called a Massacre at the time for being the worst school Shooting since Columbine. It was the name it was given at the time. Virginia Tech Overshadowed it so thats why it’s referred to as a shooting. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/red-lake-massacre-took-3-minutes/

https://www.mprnews.org/episode/2025/03/20/red-lake-mass-shooting-survivor-reflects-on-tragedy-20-years-later

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7267057

here its even called shooting not shootings. ButteyFelicity (talk) 13:23, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Also “ If the shooting event is named after a school, then "shooting" is singular in the title because most people think about the school setting of the shooting” The school was called Red Lake High School. So you gave me the answer. (Not rude) ButteyFelicity (talk) 13:26, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Also the Goleta Post Office Shooting is another example of a person kille at another location but it’s referred as a shooting instead of shootings ButteyFelicity (talk) 13:31, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

My arguments are not flawed. The 2005 Red Lake shootings were also spree shootings and rampage shootings. It honestly seems to me that you're just making up arbitrary distinctions that don't exist.

The Plymouth shooting and 2006 Goleta postal facility shooting may not follow the pattern that I identified. But I never said that every article would follow the pattern. All the shootings had lengthy voting, consensus, and resolution processes for determining each article's name. We cannot always expect accurate naming conventions when different people participate in different naming discussions at different times. Especially when no one manages to identify complex naming patterns like the one that I just did.

I did not say that the Red Lake shootings were not referred to as a massacre at the time that they happened. What I said is that most people and most media don't refer to them that way. The Red Lake shootings happened over 20 years ago. Articles should be named according to contemporary language usage. English Wikipedia in 2026 should not be written in 2005 language, just as it should not be written in 1980s language, 1800s language, nor Middle English.

And no, "shooting" should not be singular for this article's title. The shooting happened on an American Indian reservation. That are very few shootings which can claim that unique distinction. That's why most people mainly think about the Indian reservation when it comes to this set of shootings, rather than the school.

The title is good as it is. You could be accomplishing so much more right now if you were focused on writing actual articles, rather than quibbling over minute differences in article titles. Zero Contradictions (talk) 13:57, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Civility#Edit summary dos and don'ts

Wikipedia:Rude

Wikipedia:Be kind When people are angry, they don't want to hear other people's ideas. Because of this, it makes it even harder to reach an agreement.

Please read the following above.

“You could be accomplishing so much more right now if you were focused on writing actual articles, rather than quibbling over minute differences in article titles.” Please don’t be mad over it. That wasn’t appropriate to say to me.

“honestly seems to me that you're just making up arbitrary distinctions that don't exist.“ This was my opinion and I thought it could be discussed nice and formally.

Im sorry if I was rude as well. ButteyFelicity (talk) 14:09, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

That first link is about edit summaries, but we're not talking about edit summaries, so it's irrelevant. I'm not angry or mad. I don't think anything in my comment was rude, but I'm sorry if you think something was, or if it came across that way.

I really don't know how else I could've written the first paragraph to communicate what I was thinking. I really see no pattern to the supposed distinctions that you mentioned, hence why I said what I said.

I'm going to move on from this discussion, since I don't see any new arguments to address. Zero Contradictions (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

No it’s fine thank you for saying sorry. I don’t know the tone sounded rude to me and others have. I can see if i was rude as well with me dismissing your opinion. I was trying to say it was different compared to the shootings that was listed. No you have good arguments and I can see why. ButteyFelicity (talk) 14:50, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

On a completely different topic, what do you think about User:PageTheEditor and his sockpuppet accounts? You two seem to have similar editing interests. Zero Contradictions (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Oh that guy? Ummm….I wouldn’t say we have similar interests. He was mainly trying to delete articles of mass murderers like Adam Lanza and Patrick Crusius. I opposed it well because they have actual historical purposes. Then he was trying to make an article on Salvador Ramos for some reason? I nixed it with other editors mainly because Ramos wanted fame from his shooting. He’s bizarre for doing that…I don’t exactly know what his purpose was. Me? Well Im trying to get the names of articles to be the most precise and accurate to what it’s ubiquitously called. Also it be a change of just “Shooting” thats in every single article. But thats my opinion. He had multiple sock puppet accounts? I knew of one since it was stated, but What else was he doing exactly? ButteyFelicity (talk) 15:35, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

PageTheEditor argued in favor of keeping the Patrick Crusius article at WP:Articles for deletion/Patrick Crusius, not for deleting it. He also made a positive contribution to Adam Lanza. In my opinion, you two have similar interests because you are both exclusively focused on mass shootings, so I figured that I might as well ask what you think about him. I don't know what he's up to either right now, but he is probably creating, plotting, or even using yet another sockpuppet around the corner. Zero Contradictions (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Ehh not really I contribute to other things besides mass shootings. ButteyFelicity (talk) 20:18, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Okay, you're technically right. You have contributed to pages involving only single murders and true crime in general, which aren't classified as mass shootings due to their small scale. I stand by what I said when I said that you two have similar interests. I haven't seen you contribute to anything that doesn't relate to true crime. Zero Contradictions (talk) 22:11, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Oppose, massacre is a POV title, and is never preferable unless it is the common name, which it is not. The naming guidelines are WP:NCE, which this needs to follow. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:01, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Not really. It is a controversial name. controversial. In particular, the use of strong words such as "massacre" can be a focus of heated debate. The use of particular strong words is neither universally encouraged nor discouraged. The spirit of these guidelines is to favour familiar terms used to identify the event. Rules to select a name should be applied in the following sequence:

If there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view. Massacre was what it was described at first. So thats why. ButteyFelicity (talk) 20:26, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

None of these are valid arguments. They aren't based on actual Wikipedia policies or guidelines. Strangely, PageTheEditor also had a habit of ignoring Wikipedia policies and guidelines in his talk page comments. Zero Contradictions (talk) 22:16, 8 May 2026 (UTC)

Dude. Check out my the chuck e. Cheese one. Do you see me ignoring them? Please do not accuse me. ButteyFelicity (talk) 01:07, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I know that. I used that as a reason why Massacre is controversial and that im proposing that shooting it similar. ButteyFelicity (talk) 01:08, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

No. WP:POVTITLE. This is not the common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:42, 8 May 2026 (UTC)