Talk:Agbada

I noticed my wikipedia edits about the history of the Agbada keeps getting reverted, even thogh it has the oldest direct source of Agbada. Half of the text have no sources, or the sources are completely unrelated.

> “It consists of a large, free-flowing outer robe (awosoke), an undervest (awotele), a pair of long trousers (sokoto), and a hat (fìla). “

this is an unrelated source on the history of agbada

“The outer robe—from which the entire outfit derives the name Agbada, meaning "voluminous attire"—is a big, loose-fitting, ankle-length garment. In which the centerpiece is usually covered front and back with an elaborated embroidery. “

> Again this is unrelated

“By 1772, the Agbada was recorded as a Yoruba-made cloth, showcasing the craftsmanship of the Yoruba weavers, particularly in the production of Aso-Oke, a hand-woven fabric used in its creation. “

> Again this is unrelated, and no source.

“During the height of the Oyo Empire circa 1772, which held sway over much of present-day southwestern Nigeria and beyond, the Agbada became more than a local garment. It was often gifted to neighboring rulers and elites, including the people of Dahomey (modern-day Benin), who were under the influence of the Oyo Empire at the time. This cultural exchange helped solidify the dominance of Yoruba fashion, art, and politics across the region.”

> there is no source to signify that the clothing trade with dahomey was Agbada, if so can you provide me a source with evidence?

“The presentation of the Agbada to the Dahomey people under the Oyo Empire symbolized more than just fashion—it was a diplomatic gesture, emphasizing the power and reach of the Oyo Empire, as well as the integration of Yoruba cultural elements into the broader political landscape of West Africa.”

> Again this has nothing to do with the history of the Agbada, and it has no sources.

“Contrary to popular belief, the Agbada was not introduced or imported from the Sahel region. Historical records from as early as 1826 document that Yoruba-made Agbada was regarded as superior in quality and design compared to Sahelian garments. This distinction is important, as the Agbada, while sharing some broad similarities with the boubou in terms of flowing design, should not be confused with it. The Agbada represents a unique and intricate part of Yoruba heritage, standing apart in its sophistication, symbolism, and craftsmanship, demonstrating the advanced textile artistry of the Yoruba well before external influences reached the region.”

> Again, this doesn’t mean the Agbada doesnt have a common source, or origin from the boubou. This seems like the person is just inserting random sources. The 1885 Manchester geographical society clearly hints at the agbada having a muslim influence which if from the sahel, and hypotheses is with the fulanis, who had the most contact with yorubas from the Sahel region.

“We know that the Niger has been, and continues to be, the high road of Mohammedanism from North and East Africa. Its active pioneers and advance guard on Yoruba have been the Peuls or Fulanis, who have in the past overrun and subjected most of the country on the middle stream, and have so far suc-which, though divided tribally and dialectically, has a coman, national tongue and a recognised feudal head in the person of the Alatin of Oyo, who is on the best of terms with the government of Lagos-as are, indeed, all the Yoruba native states.”

“ In Yoruba the dress of an ordinary male Mohammedan consists of trousers, vest (togo), gown (agbada), cap and turban;”

again i’m willing to collaborate, but if you can provide any direct proof of the history of agbada, that is older, and more direct, i’m all ears. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 19:56, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

@Dolpina:: It appears Oluwafemi1726 has opened a talk page discussion here, though you were not pinged. Can you please comment on the substance of the edit? If you believe Oluwafemi1726 is a sock and have evidence to support this claim, please open a sockpuppet investigation. Otherwise, please focus on the content of the edits. Thank you! Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 03:52, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

tagging people with more knowledge on the topic /article and that might have interest

@Sohvyan @Oramfe Dolpina (talk) 10:49, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

most of your claims are unsourced and I'm foing to add citation needed tags, one of your two sources added isn't working as I'm trying to load. Ive removed your irrelevant unsourced content on fulani and their supposed domination in middle Nigeria which is both unsourced and has nothing to do with the article. Dolpina (talk) 11:00, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

i really do not appreciate the very low effort you're putting in this. how ist his "unsoured" content, when it is a direct quote thatlinks to the 885 Manchester geographical society, which literally writes about preludes that the agbada, is a mohammedan(muslim) cloth?https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Journal_of_the_Manchester_Geographic/m00sAAAAMAAJ?q=%22high+road+of+Mohammedanism+from+North+and+East+Africa.+Its+active+pioneers+and+advance+guard+on+Yoruba+have+been+the+Peuls+or+Fulanis,+who+have+in+the+past+overrun+and+subjected+most+of+the+country+on+the+middle+stream,+and+have+so+far+suc-+ceeded+in+considerably+contracting+the+area+of+Yorubaland,+which,+though+divided+tribally+and+dialectically,+has+a+common+national+tongue+and+a+recognised+feudal+head+in+the+person+of+the+Alafin+of+Oyo,+who+is+on+the+best+of+terms+with+the+govern-+ment+of+Lagos-as+are,+indeed,+all+the+Yoruba+native+states%22&gbpv=1#f=false

you put a citation on my source about it being highly adopted in morocco, when my source says "In some stories, it was mentioned that caftans became well known from the 12th century after the Islamic period needed by Moulay Ismael, and the garment became popular in Morocco during that period until today (Kassir, 1978)"

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2768925 The Boubou's use was historically limited to the Islamized peoples of West Africa who had inhabited the Sahel and Sahara but through increased trade and the spread of Islam. "Comparing the Boubou to the various styles of Arabic Thawb suggests the Boubou follows a more archaic template to the contemporary male clothing of the Middle East and North Africa." its very obvious that the boubou stems from. an arachaic, arabic kaftan.

furthermore, my fulani quote i think adds a precursor the the agbada's origin, or where it could have likely started being influenced, or importe in large numbers. i have yet to see any reference of agbada on google scholar prior to the 20th century, which you have failed to provide almost any soure that is even a few decades old. the full quote which again isnt unsoruced as it goes directly to it, shows the agbada, is a form of mohammed clothing, and a sentence right before that talks about the peulh influence/ doination of 19th century yorubas, per the text. we can argue as to why you believe it doesn't fit in the text, but im not sure why. again, can you explain or respond to any of my responses above, when you kept reverting my changes, when the sources are fake, and are just put in thinking no one will read them? Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 11:17, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Your Mohameddan quote doesn't say it was brought to them by the Fulanis, nor does it mention that as the history of them wearing the Agbada. If you dont have an historical standpoint on it or no research has been done on it, that leans towards original research in my opinion. Mohameddan just means muslim, which many Yorubas were and still are, it talks on the clothing of Yoruba Mohameddans, not non Yorubas and so and so. You are extrapolating what you want from that text which is pushing the source past its statements of the dress and practices of Yoruba Mohameddans (Yoruba muslims), who are indeed a solid group since antiquity. It's not like an eureka moment mentioning them.

There are orisha verses that talk about "Alagbada ina" which is "Agbada of fire" as an Oriki towards the Orisha sango, so the agbada most likely existed with tbe Yoruba pre Islamic contact. Whether and how and if when it was tweaked by neighbouring Babanriga has not been explored enough for the claims. It has nothing to do with ethnic nepotism (idk if that title was directed at me or the previous post content, but I digress), but more to do with weak source that doesn't say what you're saying. The previous version talked about likely influence without drawing conclusion, since there is also artifacts of robbed men pre islam and islamic contact in Yorubaland, but I also don't want to do original research, which you seem to want to lean into with your claims (based on the sources you put there ). Dolpina (talk) 11:11, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

>"Alagbada ina" which is "Agbada of fire"

Yoruba wasn't written down until the 1800's, and aain i'vel ooked ofn google schoalr, and this is the only reference of agbada as a first person narration, i can find. those orisha tails im guessing will. be oral stories published in the 20th century, some in 21st century, ike most of the sources this page have had,

awesome, can you send me some form of academic source, i can read about this. because again, ive yet to read anything academic, about any of your claims, thats why if you could respond to my historical context of the page, you guys are inseting random sources in your text, that have nothing to do with the history of agbada, and you have yet to respond or defend those claims. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 11:20, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Your sources either doesnt say what you mean it says (original research), weak (your morrocan kaftan source was flagged by another editor even before I got here) or nonexistent. You see why I already told you I wont do original research if I cant find the source for it, or if it is still limited to oral history... if i do find a source, then I'd add (I however haven't tried to find one in the first place tbh, I'm busy with other things).

However what you claim as source isnt stating what you feel they state or wish they stated, thisnis why they are flagged. Your last quote says nothing about it coming from this or that, but rather it being a garment that Yoruba Mohameddans did wear. Again, it isnt news that Yoruba people consisted of muslims at that century... so what does the word Mohameddan prove or have to do with your claims? Dolpina (talk) 11:30, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

I’ve criticquied the sources on the page by reading them. While you have no critique on my sources, besides disambiguous criticism. I didnt have a source of the kaftan, but i can add. That is good criticism.

as for the mohammedan cloth, the quote is the oldest source of the text Agbada i’ve seen online. It being associated with islam, clearly shows it most likely got influence from other muslim groups in west africa. I can expand that, like by adding this source https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2768925 by the general consenus agbada stems from boubou, or a boubou like cloth, which did not originate with Yorubas. Thats why it is a history section,

I can expans the history section, but my claim follows,

1.) is a regional adaption of the wider boubou, that stems from the sahara/ greater muslim world. https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/boubou/

matter fact, when you search the boubou page, or any real type of wiki prior to last year, this was a general consensus, prior to yoruba chauvinist removing it. It always included agbada, baba rigan, etc. as adaptations to the cloth, https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2768925

2.) the oldest attested writing of the agbada(not just oral tales, or 20th century writings by chauvinist, clearly link it to a mohammedan(muslim) cloth), which just isnt a coincidence, as the boubou, which is the general consesus the agbada stems from is also associated with the saharan trade, and muslim ethnic groups, hence why the 1885 manchester journal specifies the agbada is worn by yoruba muslims, which isnt a coincidence.

3.) now will you discuss the page you keep reverting, about how it has no sources, and the few sources it does have have no relation to the context, and are just put as a place holder? Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 12:46, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

I don't on what you're on about bro, call neutral 3rd party and have them go over your source which you claim is saying something that it isnt. I'm mot increasing my blood pressure over this and going back and forth with you when you dont plan to conceed anything. Find sources that state your claims. My retort wasnt "vague". Even one of your sources isnt working, if I reload it when I come on this page and it is still a dead link,I'll nuke that.Dolpina (talk) 12:53, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

this is clearly violating wikipedia policies. This user is flagging my edits as failed verification, when it goes directly to a source. I just clicked the link directly from it, and took a screenshot. They clearly aren’t trying to discuss this, or even bring any sources. I will no longer be discussing with this person. I’ll keep reverting it, until we get a neutral third party mod hopefully to look at this. But as you can see below, this person is saying my quote as “failed verification” when it is a direct quote.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/sw6x3e7v9ckq0uc5bmclv/IMG_1471.png?rlkey=6w1j1qmzu6q69cu3wvm041bj6&st=ycqsogt7&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lmmtryqaprlw57714zt30/IMG_1469.jpeg?rlkey=c2583joanza6ld9bt7xyzc21y&st=3q0kmvn4&dl=0 Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 13:07, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Failed verification = your source isnt saying what you are concluding. That's all. Would you prefer of I tagged it original research?Dolpina (talk) 13:51, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

I believe you can, or i can word it differently, in a way to show agbada cloth was associated with muslims, coincidentally similar to all the other ethnicities that wear a variation of the boubou (that coincidentally in the last year, ethnic chauvanist have started editing boubou page, this page, having to tediously claim agbada isnt a type of variation, with random sources that have nothing to do with agbada, thinking people wont read the sources they are inserting).

I still believe the quote signifies what i’m saying, if you read literally a sentence prior “ Islamism grows apace in West Africa, and with it a demand for Manchester cotton; for, be it remembered, each Mohammedan, or person who dresses after the Mohammedan fashion”.

“ In Yoruba the dress of an ordinary male Mohammedan consists of trousers, vest (togo), gown (agbada), cap and turban;”

not only does the quote signify agbada is a type of mohammedan(clothing) but that type of clothing was spread anywhere muslims go, it also alluded to the fact it couldve be spread by fulanis, as the yoruba region was recently subjugated by them(though the cloth couldve been worn earlier just by regular trade).

I am more than welcome to editing and adding more to the page when editing is open. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

The only thing you can claim based on this quote alone is that in 1889, Yoruba Muslim men wore "trousers, vest (togo), gown (agbada), cap and turban". The rest is very likely original research. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:20, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Thats very specific, i don’t think any historical source. I tried to use a historical source, as the historical reference on the page but i can more than willingly find modern sources that say something similar, “gowns such as boubouand agbada testify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century” A brief history of African fashion Helen Jennings Journal of Contemporary African Art 2015 (37), 44-53, 2015 https://read.dukeupress.edu/nka/article-abstract/2015/37/44/2064/A-Brief-History-of-African-Fashion

“ in the 18th Century, Islam influenced the embroidered African gowns such as Boubou and Agbada.”https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374471201_Ethnic_fashion_designers_entrepreneurs_and_family_businesses_an_African_marketing_perspective

Journal of Family Business Managemen (https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Journal-of-Family-Business-Management-2043-6238)

”boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddell)_web.pdf

i’m not sure the levels of direct it has to be. But in my opinion i think its fair to say the agbada stems from a variation of boubou, or atleast note that the agbada stems from an islamic/ muslim influence cloth that is found in variation across west africa and or the sahel? Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 17:12, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Based on the quotes you provided, you cannot claim that the agbada stems from a variation of the boubou. These quotes state that these items have certain similarities. The quotes do not name the relationship between these items. You could state that agbada designs are influenced by Islam as this is directly stated in the quotes. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Hello, I’m trying to be good faith, but what exactly would qualify as a quote to prove its a variation? You’re asking for is “ the agbada is a variation of the boubou cloth" Even for the wikipedia boubou, or kaftan wikipedia, none of the variations show any that as direct as what is being requested.” But i definitely have a few quotes. As it was the general consensus that the agbada is a form of boubou. “typical pieces of West African formal attire, including

the knee-to-ankle-length, owing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known

as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various

West African empires in the 12th century. The traditional half-sleeved, hip-long, woven

smocks or tunics known as Fugu in Gurunsi, Riga in Hausa, and worn over a pair of baggy

trousers, are also a popular garment (Nordquist & Aradeon, 1975)” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376713517_Reinventing_Indigenous_West_African_Fabric_Design_for_Contemporary_Commercial_Application

Reinventing Indigenous West African Fabric Design for Contemporary Commercial Application DOI: 10.14456/jucr.2023.39

now this, including the historical multiple sources link this to other gowns worn accross the sahara, and how agbada is almost always unanimously associated with muslim cloth, in regions more islamized, and islamized longer, would that make a good argument that its some form of variation? Because even in the original kaftan wikipedia page, going theough the sources, not a single one has made a direct quote that any of those kaftans stem directly from the arabic kaftan its self, and they even include boubou, etc.

gowns such as

boubou

and

agbada

testify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century” A brief history of African fashion Helen Jennings Journal of Contemporary African Art 2015 (37), 44-53, 2015

https://read.dukeupress.edu/nka/article-abstract/2015/37/44/2064/A-Brief-History-of-African-Fashion

Journal of Family Business Managemen (https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Journal-of-Family-Business-Management-2043-6238)

”boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddell)_web.pdf

Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 19:53, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Boubou (clothing) is tagged several times for lacking sources. As such, you should not use that article as a reference point for what makes a good article. At a quick glance, the kaftan article does not describe kaftans as variations of boubous or agbadas. Rather, the article states it is a variant of a robe or tunic, which is a very broad description for a type of clothing. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 22:37, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

As a quick look at your sources:

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/2768925 is unreliable because this is just a copy of a Wikipedia article, and Wikipedia does not accept Wikipedia as a reliable source (see WP:CIRCULAR).
https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/boubou/ does not mention agbada, so any claims related to agbada using this source are original research, which is not accepted on Wikipedia.

A quick search in the book you have referenced only shows the book mentioning agbada once (on page 66). Thus, if you are making claims about agbada based on what is written elsewhere, you are writing original research. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:17, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

The first source, i didnt know it took it from wikipedia, as the boubou page looks different now.

the 2nd link was in terms to boubou. As i never put it in my oroginal argument on the agbada page. As my claim follows that the agbada is a variation of the boubou cloth, which stems from sahara & muslim influence. My source was that claim, for the 2nd link you provided. I never said that has anything to do with agbada what do you think of my section 2 and three of that post? Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

You would need to provide a reliable source that clearly states "the agbada is a variation of the boubou cloth". Also, for the first source, the article says, "Wikipedia" right above the title. This is a clear sign that the information was copied from Wikipedia. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

As for sections 2 and 3, you do not have a source. All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable, and you should provide reliable sources to support your claims. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 16:27, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Thats very specific, i don’t think any historical source. I tried to use a historical source, as the historical reference on the page but i can more than willingly find modern sources that say something similar, “gowns such as boubouand agbadatestify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century” A brief history of African fashion Helen Jennings Journal of Contemporary African Art 2015 (37), 44-53, 2015 https://read.dukeupress.edu/nka/article-abstract/2015/37/44/2064/A-Brief-History-of-African-Fashion

Journal of Family Business Managemen (https://www.researchgate.net/journal/Journal-of-Family-Business-Management-2043-6238)

”boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddell)_web.pdf

I didnt open the ones you are referencing now, but let my bite frist on believing you on face value abd trusting the strength of tge source...; even you said : "in the 18th Century, Islam influenced the embroidered African gowns such as Boubou." How does that then stretch the conclusion to the other things you are claiming? An influence is different from an origin btw. Also find ot interesting how you claim that for boubou too, yet the bobou history page says something different (and you didnt take that there for some reason), so per your sources and quotes itself,it doesn't state all what you presented in the article as being facts of origin.Dolpina (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Well the thing is these region have been islamic much prior to Yorubas. I think saying the Agbda is a variation of the boubou, ( a general islamic robe/ kaftan found in multiple varieties in the sahel) is what i’ve been saying that it is a variation. My argument never was that agbada is the boubou, but it is a TYPE of boubou, like other ethnicites have. Im more than welcome in showing more sources, but since this was a history context, i only used that one, since it is the oldest written text of agbada i could find. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 18:24, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

From what I understand, the information you have provided does not indicate that the agbada is a variant of the boubou. Rather, they are both variants of something else. For example, you wrote, "gowns such as boubou and agbada". This means that both boubou and agbada are gowns -- not that agbada is a type of boubou.

Think of this in a different context: Bees, such as honey bees and bumble bees, are great pollinators. In this case, bumble bees are not a variant of honey bees; they are a variant of bees. We might also say, "People often wear different clothes, including shirts, pants, or dresses." This means that shirts, pants, and dresses are a variant of clothes, but shirts are not a variant of pants. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 22:48, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Good point. I do know the boubou, and agbada, are both variants of greater islamic kaftan/ cloth/ wrobe. But boubou is a general term for the gown its self. And from my understanding and studying of history, it only makes sense that Yorubas most likely got the Agbada directly from the boubou. Regardless i think we the amount of sources provided it is fair for me to keep a modified edit in the history of agbada that it and (maybe boubou/ similar type cloth), stem from and or derive from a greater islamic cloth/ wrobe gotten from the sahara as trade with north africa/ regions out side of sub saharan africa. How would you like me to approach this information for the page, so it doesnt delve into a poop throwing contest of edits and reverting back. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 02:35, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

In this case, I would recommend starting with a specific edit request. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 11:45, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

How do i start an edit request? I will try to do that today Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 14:44, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Please click the link I provided for edit requests. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

There is no proof from your sources on it deriving from an islamic cloth tho. Preharps you can fund that research and archeology findings off Wikipedia in a non biased way (I'm not being snarky... btw). And the article already mentioned similarities with boubou and shared influence before the edit was made... mentioning that shows the article was more neutral before your edit. Dolpina (talk) 14:30, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

No, all my sources directly claim it stems from an islamic cloth. Even my original source from 1885, noted agbada was even almost always associated with Yoruba muslims. And i have a source that directly states.

“typical pieces of West African formal attire, including

the knee-to-ankle-length, owing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known

as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various

West African empires in the 12th century. The traditional half-sleeved, hip-long, woven

smocks or tunics known as Fugu in Gurunsi, Riga in Hausa, and worn over a pair of baggy

i will say, i think its more neutral to say BOTH the boubou & agbada stem from a more broad islamic gown and or robe.

i dont think the original source is neutral. I’ve asked you again, multiple times if you can defend the histority of the page, because i disagreed with the the write up. I think sources were just mashed that had nothing to do with the page, thinking it wont be read

> “It consists of a large, free-flowing outer robe (awosoke), an undervest (awotele), a pair of long trousers (sokoto), and a hat (fìla). “

this is an unrelated source on the history of agbada

Again this is unrelated to the history of the cloth.

Again this is unrelated, and no source. Of the information. I cant even find a single mention of the term agbada used in context prior to 1885, which i sourced, so id like to know the evidence of this claim. Or the earliest mention of “aso-oke”.

there is no source to signify that the clothing trade with dahomey was Agbada, if so can you provide me a source with evidence? I think again sources are just mashed in, thinking people wont read them.

Again this has nothing to do with the history of the Agbada, and it has no sources.

Again, this doesn’t mean the Agbada doesnt have a common source, or origin from the boubou. This seems like the person is just inserting random sources. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 14:43, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

They are not described as islamic cloth anywhere your link.

Kaftan is a very general description, it is absurd to then extend the "senegalese kaftan" to have a strict meaning in the clothing of other cultures it is compared to that have their own long standing native name for an outfit. It's like saying any dress that is compared to a "robe" has its origin in germany because "robe" is rooted in an old frankish word. Utterly ridiculous. And for what it's worth, the phrase "which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various West African empires in the 12th century" would still include the Ife Empire, where in fact robed stone sculptures have been excavated and documented by Frank Willett.

Between this disruptive back and forth, you still haven't answered Oramfe's question about why you said fulanis introduced the agbada to the Yorubas when this is never said in any sources. Sohvyan (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

It is actually quintessentially described as islamic clothing in all the links i provided.

Let me re quote them for you later at the end of the text. As for the questions, i well concede that, me claiming fulanis brought it was considerdd “original research”. I drew that conclusion from a single source which was the oldest i could find in regards to agbada being mentioned. And they mentioned it was an islamic clothing, and how cotton from england was in great demand, and prior to that they talked about fulanis subjugating swarths of yorubaland. So i put two and two together. In my revised edit, i do think them mentioning the fact that the agbada was a muslim cloth is still relevant. But i wont include the rest of it including fulanis.

Again, the word robe had its etymology being an indo european word but it doesnt mean robes were created in europe. And please stop trying to cut and paste my quotes. When these places are talking about west african empires that first got contact with boubou like clothing they are usually speaking of the western soudan or the sahel.

as for the quotes, they directly mention the islamic influence, there is a clear consesus

1.) the knee-to-ankle-length, owing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known

as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various

West African empires in the 12th century. The traditional half-sleeved, hip-long, woven

smocks or tunics known as Fugu in Gurunsi, Riga in Hausa, and worn over a pair of baggy

trousers, are also a popular garment (Nordquist & Aradeon, 1975)”

2.) gowns such as boubouand agbada testify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century”

3.) boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddell)_web.pd

4.) in the 18th Century, Islam influenced the embroidered African gowns such as Boubou and Agbada.”https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374471201_Ethnic_fashion_designers_entrepreneurs_and_family_businesses_an_African_marketing_perspective

5.) In Yoruba the dress of an ordinary male Mohammedan consists of trousers, vest (togo), gown (agbada), cap and turban Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 16:46, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

You continue to add things to sources that they do not say. Western African empires include all 12th century western african empires, you don't get to pick and choose. Beads originating in Ife have been found as far as Chad and Mali, and scholars include it in the Trans-Saharan trade network.

None of these Islamic descriptions denote "origin", For instance a Yoruba kingdom can have Islamic influence, but it is still it's own thing. The phrase "Islam influenced the embroidered African gown such as Boubou and Agbada" implies that the Boubou and Agbada predate the Islamic influence. So it really doesn't make any sense why you keep centering the Islamic influence as foundational to this existence of this clothing. You are reading an islamic origin into clothing where it is never stated. Your entire premise of taking the description "senegalese kaftan" and applying the strict origin of the word "kaftan" to an agbada or boubou is completely wrong.Sohvyan (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

> I cant even find any historical maps of an “ife empire” or mentioning of an ife empire. Your using one quote

Islam influenced the embroidered African gown such as Boubou and Agbada

> that DOES NOT imply that agbada or boubou existed. It means that islam influenced those african gowns not that those specific african gowns existed prior to islam.

The quote is saying islam influenced the origin of those dresses. Since you arent trying to argue in good faith despite virtually every single source on agbada hinting at an islamic origin, i can provide more for you.

“ Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin

include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti-

Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the

Agbada.”

Dress and identity in Yorubaland, 1880-1980

Oyeniyi, B.A.l

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2900029/download

now my question for you, can you show me any verifiable evidence on the history of agbada that doesnt link its origin and or influence to anything islamic? With sources that talk about its origin, not the random sources inserted in the text that oyo gave dahomey cloth, but any that deliberately speak about the ORIGIN of the agbada its self. I’ve provided multiple sources for my claims Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Your source constantly contraditions itself, and even makes my own point about Influences not equating to origin.

This is directly from your source

"rather than supplanting the Yorùbá dress cultures, Islamic dress culture was grafted into the hitherto indigenous Yorùbá dress culture. For instance, the Yorùbá dress for men comprising originally of a wrapper fabric or a shirt – Buba - fixed on the waist over a short (Sokoto Penpe) or a trouser (Sokoto Gigun), was reformed to incorporate different Arab-styled dresses such as Gogowu, Agbada, Sulia, etc. It must be noted that some of these dress items had being in existence before the Islamic influences, for instance, the Gogowu, like Agbada and other Yorùbá flowing gowns, which was draped over the whole body, was reformed or adapted to fit and incorporate Islamic culture."

Whether you like it or not, Oyo being described as a massive producer of cloth more extravagant than it's neighbors, at a period it is also said to have been mostly "pagan" by an eyewitness accounts, keeps that possiblity of islamic origin, only a possibility. There's no question that there was "islamic influence" but it is clearly not all encompassing enough to dismiss the point that majorly pagan empires such as Oyo, developed their dress culture to a point where they could be described firstly as African and secondly as Ethnic(Yoruba) before Islamic. Sohvyan (talk) 18:12, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

From what I understand, Sohvyan isn't questioning Islamic influence but rather Islamic origin. For example, say one group of people (Group A) wears short dresses with a lot of beads. Then they meet a second group of people (Group B) who wear long dresses without beads. If Group B starts adding beads to their long dresses, it is not because their long dresses originated with their contact with Group A. Rather, their style was influenced by Group A. Does that make sense? Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 18:13, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

the agbada is not an isolated invention. It is directly related to a broader family of wide-sleeved robes worn across the Sahel, such as the boubou. These garments are found among groups like the Hausa, Fulani, and Tuareg. There is a reason why in almost ay source you find on the origin of agbada, you find it brought up in the same section as these other clothes, often even called “also known as Agbada and Babariga”, as it was always the consensus that this was the same origin of cloth.

The design itself points north, not inward Agbada’s key features like wide, flowing sleeves, large, draped silhouett, embroidered chest panel. are not unique to the Yoruba. They are part of a Sahel-wide clothing tradition that developed in regions heavily shaped by Islam. Its not a coincidence that virtually every islamic group in west africa wears something similar . This isn’t like “adding beads.” The entire blueprint of the garment already exists outside Yoruba land.

matter fact, again even the oldest writing of agbada mentioned in yoruba, was always associated with yoruba muslims.

We also have direct quotes stating it outrights originates from arabs/ muslims “Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti- Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the Agbada.”

now look at the level of broadness the person has to used to justify his originality.

“ producer of cloth more extravagant than it's neighbors” means the agbada’s origin lies in Yoruba? Is this truly something we should entertain as legitimate evidence? Is there a reason the user cant find any direct quotes that talks about the agbadas origin? Because again, almost every source that talks about the origin of the dress its self hints at what i am talking about, and some outright just say it like my previous quote. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 18:25, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Source? Dolpina (talk) 18:35, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin

include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti-

Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the

Agbada.”

Dress and identity in Yorubaland, 1880-1980

Oyeniyi, B.A.l

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2900029/download Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 18:39, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

I’d say we have to look at the topic at hand, which is the history of agbada. And look at what was asked for me to provide : “ You could state that agbada designs are influenced by Islam as this is directly stated in the quotes”. Which i’ve done with multiple sources, even including sources that directly state its origin being arab and muslim. Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin

include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti-

Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the

Agbada.”

Dress and identity in Yorubaland, 1880-1980

Oyeniyi, B.A.l

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2900029/download

2.) the knee-to-ankle-length, owing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known

as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various

West African empires in the 12th century. The traditional half-sleeved, hip-long, woven

smocks or tunics known as Fugu in Gurunsi, Riga in Hausa, and worn over a pair of baggy

trousers, are also a popular garment (Nordquist & Aradeon, 1975)”

3.) gowns such as boubouand agbada testify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century”

4.) boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddell)_web.pd

4.) in the 18th Century, Islam influenced the embroidered African gowns such as Boubou and Agbada.”https://www.researchgate.net/publication/374471201_Ethnic_fashion_designers_entrepreneurs_and_family_businesses_an_African_marketing_perspective

5.) In Yoruba the dress of an ordinary male Mohammedan consists of trousers, vest (togo), gown (agbada), cap and turban. Now look at the level of “sources” the op is providing, “the oyo empire traded clothes deemed more extravagant”. I dont think this is a fair comparison in regard to this conversation. The op hasnt probided any single source or evidence to defend his stand in the origin of the agbada, just very broad quotes, that have little to nothing to do with the origin and or influence of the cloth. Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 18:38, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Your own source just told you that Gogowu, agbada and other yoruba flowing gowns simultaneously had an islamic origin, and a pre-islamic Yoruba version. In fact that is one of the only sources I've seen that even tries to create an origin for the agbada or boubou, most accounts are sensible enough to recognise that such a thing cannot be determined because an origin was not recorded contemporary to the time of their existence, the only thing that was recorded was how each culture shaped their own version, and that is precisely what should be documented about the agbada, not trying to create facts about an origin when they literally cannot be determined. Sohvyan (talk) 18:44, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Each “shaped their own version”. That means that “each” as you stated shaped their own version of something. What is different in the original statement me and the mod said that Both the agbada and boubou are variants of something difference “Rather, they are both variants of something else. ” which is basically similar to what has been agreed on. Regardless this is something that should be added to the history of it, instead of the vary vague quotes that “oyo traded more extravagant quote”. But YES, i believe adding to the history page its “origin” or the fact BOTH the agbada, boubou, etc. in its own way are variants of something. I still think origin would be easier to convey as it says the origin of the type of style Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

You and the "mod" did not agree and she was basically telling you that you were doing original research. Which you are still doing. Dolpina (talk) 19:18, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

“From what I understand, the information you have provided does not indicate that the agbada is a variant of the boubou. Rather, they are both variants of something else. For example, you wrote, "gowns such as boubou and agbada". This means that both boubou and agbada are gowns -- not that agbada is a type of boubou.”. ok sure, regardless what you’re describing seems earily similar to what i was going to write anyways. Considering that you said the only thing that was recorded was how each culture shaped their own version, and that is precisely what should be documented about the agbada Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 19:23, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Your source told you that there was a pre-islamic Agbada, gogowu, and other flowing yoruba gowns, I don't know how you square that with it also saying they have islamic origin, but what is certain is that we have no sources contemporary to the time period that can give us a conclusive origin. The best we can say is that these 12 century west african empires who were in trade with each other simultaneously developed their own form of flowing gowns. This is captured aptly in the earlier source that stated. "The flowing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various West African empires in the 12th century".

The Boubou, Babariga, Agbada et al. were developed by the cultures that were present in 12th century Sahelian trade, which archaeology has shown to include Yorubas. There is no reason for the absurd conclusion about diffusion by Fulani conquest that you jumped to, or projecting the geographical etymology of the 'Kaftan' in "Senegalese Kaftan" as an origin for all. Sohvyan (talk) 19:28, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

i’ve concluded not to include the fulani, and coneided it was original research, so i dont see the purpose of that. No one said that agbada was the only cloth that yorubas had prior to islamic influence, i never said that, nor did my clothes. Again, the topic is on the history of Agbada. Which the agbada clearly has an islamo origin shared with boubou, and other similar cloth. In your own words the only thing that was recorded was how each culture shaped their own version, and that is precisely what should be documented about the agbada". Its ironic though, considering you keep bringing up my fulani take, yet ignore the prior “history” section, of Agbada had “sources” like oyo gave more extravogent clothes to its neighbor , has anything to do with the history of agbada. But acting like me mentioning fula’s when the book text is talking about how agbada is associated with muslim cloth, and how fulanis pushed islam subjugated yorubas 2 sentences prior.

anyways, i will make a suggestion edit today or tomorrow, with sources as more of a shared cloth worn throughout west africa, similar islamic influence Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

This is the actual quote from John Adams's rare eyewitness account of Oyo from 1786 to 1800,

“The cloth manufactured in Hio (Oyo) is superior both for variety of pattern, color and dimensions, to any made in the neighboring states”

Why would this not be relevant in an article about the history of the Yoruba Agbada and what differentiates it from other flowing gowns?

Unless agbada is made of something other than cloth, patterns, and colours, It's baffling what your issue with this is. Maybe what we say about this source can be changed, but the information about the cloth quality and patterns is definitely relevant in this article.

For whatever reason you're still going on about an "islamo-origin" when your source told you there was also a pre-islamic agbada. Sohvyan (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

because there is no explicit mention of agbada anywhere. that is a broad quote that quite frankly has no proof it has anything to do with the agbada.

someone saying yoruba cloth is superior to its neighbor could be for a variety of reason, what does that have to do with the origin of agbada?

my source NEVER said there was a pre-islamic agbada. what it does say "the Yorùbá dress for men comprising originally of a wrapper fabric or a shirt – Buba - fixed on the waist over a short (Sokoto Penpe) or a trouser (Sokoto Gigun), was reformed to incorporate different Arab-styled dresses such as Gogowu, Agbada, Sulia, etc.""It must be noted that some of these dress items had being in existence before the Islamic influences, for instance, the Gogowu, like Agbada and other Yorùbá flowing gowns, which was draped over the whole body, was reformed or adapted to fit and incorporate Islamic culture." this clearly implies the "gogowu". Which again, does not take away from the fact the source says yoruba cloth was reformed. reformed to incorporate different Arab-styled dresses" likee the agbada. Regardless, the source directly states agbada has an arab or muslim origin, which hints to virtually all academic sources, you can find on the source and or origin of the agbada.

Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin

include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti-

Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the

Agbada.”

Dress and identity in Yorubaland, 1880-1980

Oyeniyi, B.A.l

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2900023/view Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 22:57, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Again your source is clearly contraditory, it does not state ONLY the Gogowu had been in existence before islamic influences, it states SOME (Plural) of these dress items, going on to include the Gogowu, Agbada and other flowing gowns that were draped over the whole body. Reform, like influence, is not origin. You don't just get to pick which one you want. If you are going to be strict on insisting that the supposedly superior variety of patterns, colors, and dimensions created by yorubas do not apply to the agbada made by yorubas, you don't get to "hint" that other academics say the source of the agbada originates from Islam when they only state that it was influenced by islam.

There is no clear cut ORIGIN here. The only guarantee is a shared diffusion in 12th century West African empires. Sohvyan (talk) 23:46, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Right. Couldn't have put it any better.

Just a shared Sudano-Sahelo-Guinean attire (of which various ethnicities developed variants).A cultural sphere that Yorubas were very much a part of. Oramfe (talk) 19:50, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Great, hopefully the misinformation in the history section can be fixed either by reverting to the last former version and working on it, or creating a new version. Dolpina (talk) 18:41, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

No, you interjected, and used a semantic that because they stated some had existed before islamic existence, automatically included agbada. Yet deny when the text outright says the agbada is of arabic influence, but your argument is that they said "some", might have had pre-islamic influence, yet skip over the text when it outright says agbada has islamic influence. i see this is delving into a semantic games, when a text refers to the fact it straight up has islamic and or arabic origin thats not good enough, but stick to, the factt it said some might have pre-islamic influence..

i have made my stance, i will try to see if we can get a neutral stance. i'd appreciate if you can try to write a reason for yoru defense, and or what you would want he agbada history section to look like, with some sources, so they can both be viewed from a neutral perspective, without having to read this whole a argument.

my take is all historical sources on the influence, and or origins of the agbada, (where the agbada is stated out right, not vague sources on yoruba clothes, etc.) always mention agbada, and other robes worn by other west africans. my argument is that the Islamic influence should be included in the article, i can make edit requests on how much of that should be stressed in the text, but here are some sources for that.

1.) Other Yorùbá dress with Arab or Muslim origin

include the Girike, Gbariye, Dandogo, Dansiki, Esiki, Guru, Abeti-

Ajacap,Gogowu, and the popular Yorùbá voluminous dress, the

Agbada.”

Dress and identity in Yorubaland, 1880-1980

Oyeniyi, B.A.l

scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A2900029/download

2.) boubou and agbada (embroidered gowns with Islamic influence)” https://mlc.torontomu.ca/assets/MRP%20Proposal%20(Waddel

3.) the knee-to-ankle-length, owing Boubou robe, Dashiki and Senegalese Kaftan (also known

as Agbada and Babariga), which have their origins in the clothing of the nobility of various

West African empires in the 12th century. The traditional half-sleeved, hip-long, woven

smocks or tunics known as Fugu in Gurunsi, Riga in Hausa, and worn over a pair of baggy

trousers, are also a popular garment (Nordquist & Aradeon, 1975)”

4.) gowns such as boubouand agbada testify to the Islamic influences present in the region since the eighteenth century” Oluwafemi1726 (talk) 19:16, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

You keep repeating yourself. Also we cant take and run with your islamic origin stuff when the rest says its an islamic influence instead... which is where the 1st one got its sourcing from, you need sources when your argument is contentious and definitive like that. That's how it works. And i can't see anything like that. Dolpina (talk) 10:40, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Oluwafemi1726 I have gone through the source you provided (The Journal of the Manchester Geographical Society, Volumes 5-6), and nothing there states expressly that Agbada was introduced to Yorubas as a clothing style by the Peuls/Fulanis. It did mention the activity of Fulas "overrunning the middle stream of the Niger and contracting the area of Yorubaland", it also described the Fulanis/Peuls as being the "advance guard" of Islam, but notes nothing of Fulanis being the ones that introduced Agbada to Yoruba people..... So the question to you is; where did you get that conclusion from if not original research and synthesis of facts? It is strange that you seem so convinced in the veracity of your own personal conclusions that you would obstinately insist that it be included in this article as a statement of fact, but on Wikipedia, every statement of fact has to be backed up, which you will now have to do.

The Journal of Manchester Geographical Society 1885 believes the Agbada was brought to Yorubas by Peuls or Fulani's as a type of "Mohammedan" clothing

Proof??? Oramfe (talk) 18:59, 24 March 2026 (UTC)

Right. Dolpina (talk) 14:30, 25 March 2026 (UTC)

Unverified sources, and ethnic nepotism.

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