User talk:Sohvyan

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Happy editing! I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 21:51, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

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Thank you. ClueBot NG (talk) 10:17, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions. It seems that you may have added public domain content to one or more Wikipedia articles, such as Ada and Aberen. You are welcome to import appropriate public domain content to articles, but in order to meet the Wikipedia guideline on plagiarism, such content must be fully attributed. This requires not only acknowledging the source, but acknowledging that the source is copied. There are several methods to do this described at Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Public-domain sources, including the usage of an attribution template. Please make sure that any public domain content you have already imported is fully attributed. Thank you. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the heads up Diannaa, will do! Sohvyan (talk) 19:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not change spelling in articles from one variety (e.g. US) to another (e.g. British). The standard in Wikipedia for geographic articles is to use the spelling style of the subject's location. For articles not associated with a particular country, you stick with the style that was used in the first edit. Please check with WP:ENGVAR to learn how spelling differences are handled.

(Also, your edit summaries have been misleading. Making wholesale changes of spelling throughout the article is not a "minor" spelling correction.)

Best wishes, Ken Gallager (talk) 12:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Understood, my apologies. Sohvyan (talk) 12:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Sohvyan

Welcome to Wikipedia! I edit here too, under the username CFA and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I've asked for a discussion about the redirect Ekaladerhan n'Izoduwa n'ovbie Ogiso, created by you. Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 3 § Ekaladerhan n'Izoduwa n'ovbie Ogiso.

If you have any questions, please leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|CFA}}. And don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . Thanks!

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

C F A 💬 21:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

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Thanks for uploading File:Oyo bonze pillars, Christie's, London, 1996.jpg. I noticed that this file is being used under a claim of non-free use. However, I think that the way it is being used fails the first non-free content criterion. This criterion states that files used under claims of non-free use may have no free equivalent; in other words, if the file could be adequately covered by a freely-licensed file or by text alone, then it may not be used on Wikipedia. If you believe this file is not replaceable, please:

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If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these media fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification, per the non-free content policy. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. — Ирука¹³ 03:34, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Ирука, I have added a dispute template with my reasoning, and also raised the topic on the talk page. Sohvyan (talk) 08:50, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

Hi, I saw your comment at ANI, a better place for this discussion might be an individual page where the issue is most relevant. Kowal2701 (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I've collected some tertiary sources (see here), if you want to start a discussion I can paste that there? Kowal2701 (talk) 21:04, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Pinging @Vanderwaalforces: for their thoughts on a discussion Kowal2701 (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701 I don't know what we would be discussing, honestly. The thread this user initiated had blatantly false claims, false claims that were backed up by sources that fails verification. Engaging in a discussion with someone who could do that fabrication isn't something I can handle. I have plans of doing in-depth research, just as I have always done, so that I can make sense of this whole Edo-Yoruba connections. In fact, I have been doing in-depth research since last week and have been able to make sense of some of some aspects; the Ikaladerhan, Oranmiyan, and foundation of the Oba monarchy, etc. I am currently drafting the article for the last Ogiso, Owodo, I think if I am able to finish that and make sense of it, then it would guide me for Ikaladerhan (his son) and the rest history. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:20, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

@Vanderwaalforces: Okay, you might find some of the sources linked at User:Kowal2701/sandbox/History of Africa: Southern Africa#Ife-Benin helpful (particularly the Wiley one), it’ll probably be a case of adhering to NPOV by balancing both narratives Kowal2701 (talk) 12:51, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

@Kowal2701 Thank you! I'd check them out. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:13, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Everything I said regarding the primacy of Ife in relation to Benin and the fabrication of Ekaladerhan being Oranmiyan or Oduduwa, is scholarly consensus. A consensus mind you that was informed by the oldest Benin elders who are no longer alive to give authentic first hand oral stories, coupled with rigorous archaeological analysis that has not changed. The professional historians have already done the work, but I'll look forward to your submission. Sohvyan (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

I raised the issue mainly due to the frequency of sock accounts admins have to keep banning on certain edo-yoruba pages due to their blatant disregard for any rules, didn't realise I'd have to tailor my submission to be far more user targeted. Im happy enough if you could read the initial post, I'll just focus on specific pages to adress issues in the future since my submission was too broad of a topic for the ANI thread. Apologies for the useless ping. Sohvyan (talk) 22:27, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

No worries. The sources I looked at don’t support a Yoruba origin for the Ogiso, only for the Oba. The only mention of Egharevba's tradition in them was Wiley's, which mentioned it as an afterthought. I think it’d be due an {{efn}} at Igodomigodo, but we can discuss this at a later time when the article is expanded if you’d prefer (I might do a little bit of writing now) Kowal2701 (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

The sources I provided very much do, but I'll follow you up on that later for specifics. Sohvyan (talk) 12:59, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Since you notified me on the ANI thread I thought I'd comment on the matter. The sockpuppetry, at least from what I've seen on Ada and Abere, appears to be the work of one person. The practice I've seen is to disregard any comments made by sock accounts like that. Especially noting that one purpose of sockpuppetry is to create a false sense of where the consensus lies. We shouldn't change the content of articles to compromise with one bad actor. I think, ultimately, page protection is the solution. I'll cap this off by saying I don't have any horse in this race for Yoruba/Edo cultural debates. My only involvement here has been in countering sockpuppetry. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:58, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Suggestion for Direct Link to be added to the Michael Echeruo reference Gemini22jnr (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Seems good, in the future its better to create this in the talk section of the subject, you don't need a regular editor's permission to make fitting changes. Sohvyan (talk) 21:21, 21 June 2025 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Top Qs Fact Check

Please stop overclaiming and misrepresenting sources in your edits. You are experienced and you know that citing articles beyond the scope of their actual claims violates several Wikipedia policies, per WP:NOR where editors are not allowed to extend or extrapolate claims beyond what sources explicitly state, you did this here and here . Again, there was NEVER anywhere in the article that stated afikpo women adopted this tradition. See also WP:OVERCITE which is clearly discouraging inappropriate citations. Also see WP:VERIFY stating that citations must accurately reflect what the source actually says. Per WP:SYNTH to cojoined two citations to imply a conclusion not stated by any of the articles which again is clearly not permitted.

Willful and continued disregard for these policies may result in your editing privileges being restricted or you being blocked per WP:BLOCK. Please review your recent edits and kindly make sure all citations accurately reflect the scope of the sources cited. Otherwise, I will report this to an administrator at WP:ANI(Administrators' Noticeboard for Incidents). Deetailz (talk) 20:08, 12 May 2026 (UTC)

Seeing as you made this comment in response to me cautioning you against your disruptive blanking and removal of sources

I'll just leave the actual source quotes here for those passing by.

_{Source A}

"These women (afikpo Igbo) wore Yoruba cloths as well as the Yoruba head-tie. They considered themselves more 'civilized' than other Afikpo women."

- Improvement Associations among the Afikpo Ibo (1955)

_{Source B}

"Originally from the Yoruba tribe, it has now spread its charm throughout the continent. A proud symbol of femininity, the Gele is gracefully worn by women during festivities and joyous celebrations. Though the wearing of Gele is commonplace for women in the Nigerian culture, the two cultures that are especially noted for wearing the Gele in both its casual and sophisticated form are the Yoruba and Igbo cultures."

- Fashion designer Ify Ubby speaks on the Gele’s history and its evolving significance (2023) Vogue.sg

_{What I wrote in the article}

As early as 1955 Igbo women were documented to have adopted the head tie of Yoruba women through improvement associations

I don't know if you're talking just to talk, but as far as Igbo women wearing the yoruba headtie is concerned, nothing is "overcited" in the article, WP:OVERCITE is about clutter. You are probably trying to say that I'm using the source to say more than it does, but if anything, I'm saying far less than the source does, I left out the unpleasant exposition that other Igbo women who were not wearing the yoruba head tie were deemed uncivilized by their own sisters. You are misreading WP:SYNTH, it does not say you shouldn't make a phrase out of two sources, it says you shouldn't make a new conclusion not stated in either source, which I never did. Source B is quite clear about widespread adoption, even beyond Igbo women, reaching nigerians and the whole continent. If your hang up is about using "adopt" with afikpo women, I don't think it makes any difference within this context.

I've touched it up, especially the parts I actually understated, but I still left out the part about Igbo women without the yoruba head tie being seen as uncivilized by other Igbo women, with this it should be closer to a verbatim quote.

For what it's worth, I'd gladly participate in an ANI you make, I'm sure the admins will be very curious about how your first task on wikipedia was POV slinging in a random afD full of LLM generated brigading. Sohvyan (talk) 22:33, 12 May 2026 (UTC)

No. Again, I m going to maintain my stance. There was NEVER any part of the article fhat says they adopted this tradition. They wore it ONLY. Whether you choose to cite that they considered themselves more civilized or not is not the bone of contention and I will not be deflecting to that.

Also, you stating that the second citation clearly states it has spread is also another deflection. This is not hard please and let's try to be truthful in all our efforts to keep African history going. You conjoined an article stating they wore an attire in 1955 with another written in 2023 to establish that:

As early as 1955 Igbo women were documented to have adopted the head tie of Yoruba women through improvement associations

I

Agai

Deetailz (talk) 01:08, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

Again, we must be truthful in our attempt to uphold our history.

Finally, that I created my account and later subsequently use the same account to argue and fact check assumptions is in fact why my wikipedia account exist. Ichafu has always existed among the Igbo people with varying degrees and styles. Being accused of LLM whether true or false is also beside the bone of contention and I fear this is straw grasping.

I have seen your correction. This is much better. Thank you and have a nice day. Deetailz (talk) 01:14, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

Oh that wasn't a correction, sources generally aren't quoted verbatim due to copyright issues. Like I said earlier, the key is that adopt and wear mean the same thing within the context of the source, but you made me I realize that english isn't every editor's first language, and not everyone can grasp context clues. Glad you prefer the change. Ichafu isn't relevant. As long as you aren't being disruptive again there won't be an issue. Sohvyan (talk) 02:15, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

I will not descend into semantic argument with you. Adopt and wear are NOT synonyms, neither do they mean the same thing, even within the context of your citation. Neither of us have English as our first language, again, I will not deflect to that.

But I wanted to add that whether Afikpo Igbo women wear yoruba women's headtie (as stated in the article), again, NOT gele doesn't mean they did not wear ịchafụ which is very different from your gele, although similar as we can see from women head ties across africa. The article you cited referencing borrowing is a very recent blog.

There are more reputable documentation of Igbo women wearing high-rise head tie called unari, akwaisi, nsu n'isi or ichafu as far back as 1904 snd 1947 and beyond as documented in Holy Ghost Fathers English, Ibo and French Dictionary in 1904. Also in 1947 as documented in Ibo Village affairs by Margaret Green, Thomas Northcotes 1913 Anthropological Reports of the Ibo-speaking people had nsu n'isi, and Trotter et al 1848's A narrative of expedition sent by her majesty'  governmentto the River Niger, all which predate 1955's Ottenberg Improvements association among the Afikpo Ibo. These are first hand anthropological reports and using a 2023 blog to erase a century old report must be a choice.

You’re also missing the fact that Igbo culture is not monolithic but varies across multiple communities in the southeast and south south region of Nigeria. Afikpo women is one town out of over 100 Igbo towns, villages and communities across the country. Among the Odu women in Anioma and Onitsha Igbo regions of Nigeria, Odu women have been captured in anthropological photographs and reports wearing Ichafu headdress from 1841 down to 1959 when the women organisation became formalised, which shows a continuity of a culture documented as early as 1841.

Even so, afikpo present day Ebonyi state have historically considered themselves less civilized than their other counterparts within the region how much more in the West. Again, while your current edit is ok for now, every single information on Wikipedia is NOT immune to fact checking. It is through constant negotiation that we arrive at a conclusion of fact. This is how knowledge is built. Accusing me of being insecure or being defensive is a not a good hallmark for a custodian of knowledge. You have to be open to criticisms. Deetailz (talk) 02:35, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

Also, considering that, according Yoruba culture, there are 2 forms of head ties, what kind of head ties are you talking about? gele or ibori? the source does not say that, neither does it say anything about Igbos borrowing gele or headties generally. A primary source or anthropological over a blog post clarifying that is necessary. If you are saying that igbos got head ties from yoruba, you need to pull multiple different sources that proves that. The 1955 source didn’t say Igbo women, the context narrates a specific group of Afikpo women who wore Yoruba headtie to an event. You need sources that shows that onitsha women, imo women, enugu women, Delta women adopted yoruba headties, because like I said, Igbo culture is not monolithic but rather multicultural across the various communities and states of Nigeria. If you want to assert that a whole ethnic group existing across various states of Nigeria adopted a specific culture from the Yoruba, you need to provide a source that expressly say the Igbo people did, not one community out of a whole ethnic group existing across various states of Nigeria, especially when your source is referring to a specific group of women that attended an event rather than the entire Afikpo community. In fact, that entire paragraph is WP:OVERGENERALIZE which is against wikipedia policy, see also WP:PRIMARY WP:UNDUE and WP:PRECISE. Please adjust the article accordingly. Deetailz (talk) 03:04, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

Just to point out that "adopt" and "wear" can absolutely be synonyms. The 2nd definition in Merriam Webster is "to begin to practice or use" so you get constructions like this or this and "he adopted a relaxed type of fashion" is absolutely common - but it doesn't mean he wore it all the time. Black Kite (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

No. Within the context of this study and in many context even the one you cited. Adopt and wear are NOT the same. Adopt not only puts a habitual tense onto the "wear", it puts a start, 'begin-ning', and an origin of a habit which is IN FACT an over citation that the cited article did not establish. Deetailz (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

The word "adopt" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. That aside, the main thing here is that this 1955 resource as per the gele page is being used as evidence for the adoption of yoruba head tie into igbo head tie tradition from 1955 to today. And that is just simply factually incorrect. There isn't really any more resource from multiple different areas to back up this claim, especially considering that it talks more on afikpo women within that time period than it being an evidence of adoption in general to igbo women head tie.

Also this specific resource that is being used doesn't say anything about gele I mean who's to say that this isn't ibori which like the gele page says, is another yoruba head tie.

Even so, the gele page says "Today, Igbo women in general have adopted the Gele, and they wear it by its original name,..." This is simply not factual because (1.) There is no evidence to support the claim that today igbo women's traditional headress isn't ichafu but gele. Where is the resource that tells on the story of how it came to the east regarding to how it is worn today.

(2.) And if the original name being inferred here is gele that is also another factually incorrect information. Because in the igbo dictionary, what igbo people refer to as head tie is ichafu, not gele. And gele isn't one of the listed borrowed  words from the yoruba people in the igbo dictionary. And the reason why that is it's because the tradition of head tie is not a borrowed tradition in the igbo culture.

Regardless, there's a lot of POV pushing here and it does seem to be that no one is questioning the information that are incorrectly put into this gele page. Deetailz (talk) 20:01, 13 May 2026 (UTC)

His argument still overstates what the source proves.

Yes, “adopt” can sometimes mean “begin to use” in English generally. Merriam-Webster does include meanings related to “taking up” or “beginning to use” something. And yes, people can say things like “he adopted a relaxed style of fashion.” But that still does not settle the historical claim being made here. The issue is not whether “wear” and “adopt” can overlap in some dictionary contexts. The issue is whether Ottenberg’s source actually demonstrates that Igbo women began using headties because of Yoruba influence. It does not. What Ottenberg wrote in his anthropological study, Improvement Associations among the Afikpo Ibo (Africa, Vol. 25, No. 1, 1955), was:

“Between 1947 and 1951 a women’s union, called owi ejo, existed in the area… These women wore Yoruba cloths as well as the Yoruba head-tie. 

That wording describes what style those women wore. It does not automatically establish origin, first use, or cultural derivation for Igbo women generally. If Someone wants to make such claims that "Igbo women adopted headties from Yoruba people, then they need a source explicitly saying that the practice itself was absent among the Igbo people before the Yoruba and later introduced from Yoruba culture. The Ottenberg passage does not say that.

And even if one insists on interpreting “wear” in a broader “adopted fashion” sense, the source would still only apply to that specific Afikpo women’s union in 1955. It still would not support a sweeping claim about the origin of headties across Igbo society as a whole.

The wider historical record already shows headcloths/headties among Igbo women before that association existed.

In Ibo Village Affairs (1947), anthropologist M.M. Green — writing from direct ethnographic observation of Igbo society states:

“In ordinary life the women usually wore a short cloth folded round the hips and reaching to the knees, and some wore a headcloth.”

Another ethnographic description of traditional Eastern Nigerian/Igbo women’s clothing states:

“Among the women of the villages too, traditional clothes are still much in evidence: several yards of patterned print skilfully wrapped around the waist and reaching to the ankles, a blouse and headtie."

Both sources already describe headcloths/headties among Igbo women independently of the Afikpo association.

Nkiruka Okeke’s work also directly links the term itself to Igbo women’s practice:

“‘Head-tie’ meaning; ‘a head gear’ came from the manner in which Nigerian – (Igbo women) women tie a piece of clothing material on the head as head gear. In that way, the word ‘head-tie’ came up.”

There is also older historical evidence. In A Narrative of the Expedition Sent by Her Majesty's Government to the River Niger by William Allen and T.R.H. Thomson (1848), Odu women Who where wives of the Obi of Aboh(Anioma Igbo región) were already depicted wearing headties roughly a century before the Afikpo women’s union mentioned by Ottenberg.

The odu institution itself is a pre-colonial women's cultural association among Anioma and Onitsha Igbo people not a 1955 social club.

You also cannot reduce the dressing practices of millions of Igbo people across historically independent communities to one localized example from a women’s union in Afikpo. Igbo societies across present-day Anambra, Delta, Imo, Abia, Ebonyi, Enugu, Rivers, Akwa Ibom, Cross River, etc., had different cultural institutions and dress traditions long before that 1955 association existed.

So at best, Ottenberg documents a specific Afikpo women’s group wearing Yoruba-style fashion. That is not the same thing as proving the general practice of headties among Igbo women originated from Yoruba culture.

His claims also ignores colonial and Christian influence on women’s dressing across Southern Nigeria. Blouses, wrappers, veils, head coverings and tied headcloths became more widespread across different groups during the missionary and colonial era. So seeing women in headties in the 20th century is not automatic proof of Yoruba origin. Especially when headties are documented in Igbo-English- French dictionaries as early as 1904 as an Original Igbo Word meaning Ichafu,etc according to various regions not gele or Ibori.

So the Ottenberg source has to be read properly and in context. Like mentioned earlier, at best, it documents a specific Afikpo women’s association wearing Yoruba-style fashion. It does not prove that Igbo women generally got the practice of wearing headties from Yoruba culture, especially when older ethnographic and historical records already show headcloths/headties among different Igbo communities long before that association existed.~2026-28907-06 (talk) 00:04, 14 May 2026 (UTC)