Talk:Akhal-Teke

I'm starting a new section here because of the question of what the "Turkoman horse actually is. I have heard several theories, each with assorted evidence:

1. The "Turkoman horse" i.e. the ancient Oriental horse that arose in the general area of what today is Turkemenistan, Iran, Afghanistan, etc., no longer exists in a purebred form that can be documented in some way, only its descendants of other breeds, possibly multiple breeds. Montanabw^(talk) 18:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
2. The Akhal-teke IS the "pure" Turkoman horse, surviving to the present day. Montanabw^(talk) 18:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
3. Some other breed is the pure, surviving to the present day, same Turkoman horse, but the Akhal-teke isn't it. Montanabw^(talk) 18:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

So which theory is the most likely to be backed by more than anecdotes from the breed registry claiming extreme antiquity for their breed? I guess I'm looking for a standard akin to those of both historic and modern documentation that is used to verify that breeds such as the Barb and Arabian are, mostly (claims of unbroken purity being dubious all around, IMHO), the same horse breed that has been in those areas for centuries and not something like the Neapolitan horse that has been created out of whole cloth from vaguely related descendant breeds - or worse yet, the so-called bred back "Tarpan" that isn't genetically related to the extinct subspecies at all, it just kind of looks the same? (smiles) Montanabw^(talk) 18:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

(Answer below this to keep who said what straight):

The big question is: Where is the SCIENTIFIC proof (maybe DNA analyses from horses found in frozen graves) that the Turkoman horse ever existed as an equine subspecies such as the Przewalski horse or Tarpan? Because only then you can speak of extinction. And if the Turkoman horse was for thousands of years (as described by authors) the rather tall, slender and long lined in appearance Akhal Teke (maybe mixed now and then with other super performing stallions of whatever breed) - how can it be extinct? By the way: the look of Arab horses and Akhal Tekes are the exact opposite - where the Arab has a dished nose and is round, short and square the Akhal Teke is angular, tall and rectangular - in other words has long lines - be it long ears, long legs, long back and a straight or convex head and rather almond shaped eyes - it doesn't look like they have been bred from each other. On the other hand: When you look at the English Thoroughbred - bred from allegedly Barb, Arab and Turk horse and local stock - the similarity is to an Akhal Teke in appearance rather than to a Barb or Arab or local stock horse and when you cross Thoroughbred and Akhal Teke the result is often a particular typical Akhal Teke looking horse which seems to indicate that the Akhal Teke was a major influence in Thoroughbred breeding Ulruppelt (talk) 15:57, 8 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I personally do not make the assertion that the oriental subtypes were ever distinct subspecies and that isn't what I meant; that theory was popular in the early 20th century and has been disproven. That the Turkoman "breed" is "extinct" is probably not as perfectly precise as it could be, though in Europe, the word "breed" is often translated as "race." The point is, the "pure undiluted" exact breed as we understand purebred animals to be - i.e. no admixture of outside blood for centuries (at least officially...and this thinking can get kind of obsessive after a point) Appears to not be traceable from the "Turk" horse of the 17th or 18th century to today without some evidence of other breeding in there...or, is that precisely what the Akhal Teke claims to be? And what evidence can we point to/

As for the rest, Arabs, Barbs and "Turks" are all of the oriental horse subtype in that they are adapted in various ways to arid climates, bred for speed and endurance. (Also look at the Marwari horse, by the way, and some other breeds like the Azerbaijan horse/Karabakh horse) Things like head shape are a matter of selective breeding and, to some extent, climate. If you look at 100-year old photos of both Arabians and of those early Akhal-tekes, there is a lot less difference between them than between what we have now, with a lot of modern First World breeders of both breeds breeding as much for looks as function. The records of the Thoroughbred are crystal clear as to the geographic origins of most of the major "oriental" stallions who contributed to the breed, and though precise pedigrees have room for debate, their origins generally do not.

And FYI, in Spain, they DID do DNA analysis that showed conclusively that the Andalusian and the Barb cross-influenced each other. (see Andalusian horse). (I bet THAT created a "shitstorm!) I don't know if there are other studies like this elsewhere or not. I was also amused at a mtDNA study of Arabian mares that showed that the registered "strains" actually did not all trace to the same genetic lines! So I suspect that all these claims of great purity dating to antiquity are going to be pretty tough to "prove" one way or the other. Montanabw^(talk) 17:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

To Montanabw: Have you seen this article? The Arab horse community might not like it but:

Speculations on the origin of the Arabian horse breed ^[1] Iwona Głażewska E-mail the corresponding author Faculty of Biology, University of Gdańsk, Al. Piłsudskiego 46, 81-378 Gdynia, Poland http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.livsci.2009.12.009, How to Cite or Link Using DOI Permissions & Reprints View full text Purchase $31.50 Abstract Arabian horses are widely believed to be one of the oldest breeds in the world. There are many legends regarding their origin, some of which date back even to the times of King Solomon. The present study attempts to determine the real origin of the breed through the analysis of mtDNA sequences from American and Polish Arabs that are deposited in GenBank. The findings show that the origin of the breed is heterogeneous and that the diversity among particular sequences grouped into ten haplogroups is significant. A set of identical and similar sequences was found by comparing Arabian sequences to those from archaeological samples and present-day horses representing different breeds. These results permit formulating the hypothesis that the Arabian horse breed was created from many different breeds and populations, and the concept of breed purity, might refer, at most, to the present population with a history that does not exceed two hundred years.

Keywords Arabian horse; Horse; Mitochondrial DNA; Horse origin — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ulruppelt (talk • contribs) 02:30, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll have to find a way to get the full text of that article and look at it. The bottom line is that most of the very ancient breeds may be able to claim lines that go way back, but the "purity" issue is sort of a bugbear all around. When the "my breed is more pure than your breed" game starts being played, everyone usually winds up looking like a fool. I know that the Pyramid Society loves to push the claim that only 2% of all purebred Arabians bloodlines (theirs, basically) are really "pure." But then, some elements in that clique claim that their stuff is so "pure" that its all but safe to heavily inbreed. (**headdesk**) The genetic disease stuff gets wrapped up in this, as if genetic disorders were somehow evidence of "impurity" - when they aren't, mutation occurs with pretty much EVERY crossing of two creatures; the problem is only when too much close-breeding allows deleterious mutations to replicate. Sorry, ranting again. If you want to look at a different ancient breed article, you may find Sorraia kind of interesting. They have a lot of "our breed is the really pure one" out there too, but from a totally different part of the world. Montanabw^(talk) 20:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

To Montanabw: I'm with you re: the question of "pureblood" claims over more than 300 years of any horse breed - it is just unlikely that the tribes would NOT breed with an exceptional stallion that they captured. I've heard that there is a strain of Arabs - the Maneqi/Muniqi strain that is allegedly an Arab and Akhal Teke mix. On Page 230 - 231, Sacred Horses: The Memoirs of a Turkmen Cowboy, Jonathan Evan Maslow, Random House Incorporated, 1994 , Maslow quotes Dr. Witt who challenged the statement that the Darley Arabian was a pure Arabian horse since Thomas Darley brought the horse from Aleppo. Maslow: "The horse was bred in the desert of Palmyra in northern Syria by the Anazah, a tribe of Bedouin nomads. Dr. Witt says these Anazah Bedouins migrated into northern Mesopotamia in the 17th century, where they came into contact with Turkmen nomads and put some of their mares to the Turkmen stallions. This mixture of Anazah with Turkmen found its highest expression - and closest approximation of the Akhal Teke- in the Maneqi (or Muniqi) el Sladji blood line, which reached its present form just a few years before Consul Darley went shopping in Aleppo. Witt says the Darley Arabian was "without a doubt Maneqi" ". Professor Dr. Vladimir O. Witt or Vitt (the translation of cyrillic letters vary was "one of the foremost equine authorities of the U.S.S.R. Academy Of Sciences". ^[2] Ulruppelt (talk) 16:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

Yeah, I was immensely amused at the DNA study that proved that the Andalusians and Barbs were crossbreed both ways; both sets of breeders swear by all that's holy that they were "pure" and unbroken strains from their ancestral wild ancestors. I would not be surprised if the Tekes and the Arabians have some cross-fertilization too. The ancestry of the Darley, the Goldolphin and the Byerley whatever-they-ares is one of those endless disputes, with each breed's advocates making the case for their favorites (Everything from they are all Arabian to none of them Arabian). However, as to the Darley, Syria was the homeland of the Anazeh people, who were unquestionably Arabian breeders; it's where the Homer Davenport imports came from too, all of which everyone swears on all holy objects are among the "purest" Arabs. And, of course, all that said, even the purists admit the Muniqi strain in Arabs apparently was influenced by a small infusion of Turkoman blood about 300 years ago. But I suspect it went both ways, and bottom line is that environment creates these landrace breeds over time, nothing lives unless it can survive the surroundings. Written records aren't foolproof, either, though. My favorite giggles are the 20th century registries that have bay foals born of two chestnut parents; a genetic impossibility! Montanabw^(talk) 18:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

To montanabw: Yeah - it is really funny that breeders insist on something so unlikely as purebreds over thousands of years. My guess is that what has been said in the scientific study about Arabian Horses (only bred pure for the last 200 years) is true for Akhal Tekes as well - or rather - since some Thoroughbred blood was admitted for a while - less true. The foundation stallions of Akhal Tekes look pretty different from each other and you can nowadays see the race horse type - the one that is usually considered typical Akhal Teke and the sport horse type that almost looks like a Warmblood. As long as my mare has a bloated stomach from grazing she looks at first glance like a Warmblood mare. Only being on a hay and pellet diet will show of her greyhound figure. But she is pureblood in terms of her gaits, her temper, her very short silky coat, missing forelock and thin mane (and blood tested DNA verified pedigree). Wishing you a great vacation and looking forward to continue our discussion when you're back. I'm female by the way. Ulruppelt (talk) 15:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I believe our goal at Wikipedia may not be to resolve such fascinating questions ourselves, but rather to collect and collate the most definitive references from those who publish, where available, robust peer-reviewed references that do provide resolution.

And since the 2013 discussion here, I think we’ve found such a reference for the “extinction question” here: Wallner, Barbara (10 July 2017). "Y Chromosome Uncovers the Recent Oriental Origin of Modern Stallions". Current Biology. 27 (13): 2029–2035. doi:10.1016/j.cub.2017.05.086. Retrieved 30 July 2017.

Greenineugene (talk) 03:34, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I want to challenge the reliability of information given in the now dead website akhalteke.info. Where are the sources to support statements such as: Wobbler Syndrome "During the past 10 to 15 years there have been several cases of Wobbler Syndrome reported among Akhal Teke. or Not so long ago an Akhal Teke which produced several foals with confirmed Wobbler Syndrome was taken out of the breeding program by the owner after some of these foals had to be put down before turning 15 months. Unfortunately some of the offspring are still reproducing and in the third generation cases of OCD were discovered."

Or DSLD/ESPA Currently at least one productive Akhal Teke sire has been witnessed to show classic symptoms, however there are quite a few photos of a variety of Akhal Teke available, which put them on a list of "also suspects".

If nobody gives evidence that there are Akhal Tekes with Wobbler Syndrome or DSLD I will delete this information in the section "Genetic Diseases" Ulruppelt (talk) 05:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I will do a little copyediting there to improve the neutral tone, but just because the link is dead doesn't mean that the source is unreliable or wrong (in fact, it sounds like a "whistleblower" site that is challenging a coverup by the registry, to be perfectly honest - and the AT registry would not be the first breed group to put its head in the sand and shout "lalalalalalala" when confronted with uncomfortable realities). That said, wobblers are pretty common in the Thoroughbreds, Paints, and some of the warmblood breeds, so it's not like it's a reason to freak out. Ditto DSLD, which is also common in several breeds, as is OCD. The degree to which these are genetic is complicated by modern management (as is laminitis, common and a worry in several breeds, Morgans, Mustangs, Arabs, ponies, etc... though due to their nature as an easy keeper colliding with modern overfeeding...). However, as OCD in particular is a management issue, it is important to note if a breed is vulnerable so the youngsters can be fed properly. Anyway, I'd say that it's important to look at the issue. The claim that "our breed, unlike anyone else's breed, is so ancient and pure that it can't have genetic issues" is, in every breed so far I've looked at, basically hogwash. DNA mutates with every generation, and once you start linebreeding to fix desired traits, the undesirable traits come trotting right along with them. It's a bummer, but it hits nearly every breed of "purebred" animal sooner or later. Any way, it's a good matter for discussion. Did you see how we handled the blindness issue in Appaloosa? Their registry was in denial about that for years, and then DNA studies demonstrated that it is actually linked to the color itself! Bummer for them, but they're still standing and doing OK as a breed. Montanabw^(talk) 21:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

To Montanabw: Please don't insist on using unsubstantiated sources!!!!! I don't know who put akhalteke.info up and let it die. But if you can't bring any evidence for the statements there then we have to delete unsubstantiated information! What other breeds experience is their issue; Akhal Teke issues need to be proven and evidence given not words on an anonymous website without any validated external source! Ulruppelt (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

To Montanabw: Thanks for toning Genetic diseases down. Cryptos happen to actually be "significantly" more expensive to castrate - at UC DAVIS, California it cost $1700 to $2000 for a crypto surgery but only $200 to $300 to cut off the testicles at the ranch. But thanks anyway. I'm even trying to verify Wobbler and DLSD in my various Akhal Teke groups. But so far nobody says it is a common/on the rise issue or an issue at all (DLSD). Discussion is that Wobbler can be caused by other issues. I think if it was really true that it was a more than one time occurrence on a stud farm that they pulled the stallion or mare out of the breeding program because they can't sell foals, yearlings, young stock with Wobbler. I was a visitor on a studfarm seversl times over a 3 year period and none of the horses and foals had Wobbler or any hereditary disease. None of the (breeding) stallions were cryptos but one 3 year old colt who was gelded (out of 8 males). Ulruppelt (talk) 22:37, 11 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I'd like to challenge the neutral POV of ulruppelt as this user comes here with the explicit mission of turning this article into a PR plot and presenting a picture that is pushed by breeders and other people with a vested interest in promoting the breed. Semillana (talk) 06:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

To Semillana: Please let me know what do you think is a "PR plot". When you write "explicit mission of turning this article into a PR plot" where is this explicit? I am not a breeder. I present scientific sources as evidence and request scientific or at the very least other evidence then hearsay on a dead website - what do you think is wrong about that? Ulruppelt (talk) 07:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

@Semilana, don't fret, this is what I'm here for. Ulruppelt is editing in good faith and making few changes to the actual article without getting input from other, neutral editors like me. There's no plot, just a person passionate about his/her favorite breed trying to improve the article, and I'm here as one of the active members of WikiProject Equine (WPEQ), to be a neutral editor and we at WPEQ have helped several other breed articles be improved with input from people who know the breed but aren't used to the rules of the road on wikipedia. For example, in the past couple of years, we helped breeders improve Gypsy Vanner horse and Paso Fino quite a bit. We also helped a breeder take [{New Forest pony]] clear to featured article quality! However, you may want to read WIkipedia's policy on personally attacking other users. Your account was created today and has made exactly ONE edit - to this page. So, I believe that you may want to read WP:SOCK because I'm a little concerned that you may also be here with a POV yourself; this article has gotten an awful lot of traffic from multiple new users lately. Montanabw^(talk) 19:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

@Ulruppelt, this above thread is one reason why I think it is wise to keep the genetic stuff in the article, though I do think it would be good to find better sources. (THis may take some time, for one thing, I will be traveling the rest of this week) As far as your anecdotal experience goes, I hate to be blunt, but your response and arguments are pretty much the same as I've run across in almost all other breeds when they start to wrestle with the genetic issues. ("I've never seen one/I know big breeders, they've never seen one/it's less than 5%-10%-2% of the population/It's treatable so no big deal/ etc...") (and I'm saying that with a sad smile and a hug, OK?) Genetic stuff may initially only affect a small number of animals within a breed (I know of a case where some linebreeding produced an "outbreak" of a genetic condition in another breed that affected 6 to 7% of the farm's (large) foal crop, but that was enough to freak out everyone), but if unchecked, you wind up with the (well-documented) problem the Quarter Horse people now have; something like 25% of all their reining and cutting horses are HERDA carriers and though in much smaller numbers, they had to ban HYPP-affected horses from registration altogether. Or worse, the frame overo gene that ALWAYS produces lethal white syndrome when homozygous. (And the Paint people STILL try to play that ugly little reality down... sigh) Montanabw^(talk) 19:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to challenge your change: The Akhal-Teke's most notable and defining characteristic is the natural metallic bloom of its coat.^[1] This is especially seen in the palominos and buckskins, as well as the lighter bays, although some horses "shimmer" more than others.

The coat color is mentioned over and over again and doesn't need to be repeated here. Ulruppelt (talk) 06:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC) ulruppelt

Down the road, if or when we - or someone else -wants to bring this article up for Good article review, there is a rule of sorts that the lead summarizes the rest of the article, so anything mentioned there has to be mentioned - and footnoted - in the body text. I'd agree there's no need to say it more than twice, however. But I put the metallic coat bit back in the body, we have it in the lead, but if it's now in there three or more times, i agree the remaining mentions would be overkill. Montanabw^(talk) 21:09, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the AVK issue: the following thesis says on page 19 in the Conclusion that AVK can't be determined because of lacking early mare records. Although her introduction is hearsay (seems to have been copied in parts from Wikipedia or akhalteke.info) and I happen to recognize several flaws in it since I've done my own research, the conclusion of her thesis based on her pedigree research sounds believable: Title: Pedigree and inbreeding analysis of the rare and endangered Akhal-Teke horse : an honors thesis (HONRS 499) Authors: Carroll, Jillian M. Advisor: Blakey, Cynthia A. Date of Object: 2010 Abstract: Access to abstract permanently restricted to Ball State community only Additional Information: Access to thesis permanently restricted to Ball State community only CardCat URL: http://liblink.bsu.edu/uhtbin/catkey/1568799 Type: Undergraduate senior honors thesis. Degree: Thesis (B.?.)--Ball State University, 2010. Department: Ball State University. Honors College -- Theses (B.?) -- 2010. Archival ID: A-340 Appears in Collections: Undergraduate Honors Theses: ^[1]

Ulruppelt (talk) 05:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I'd like to see what can be found on this. May take some time. Possibly her bibliography links to some stronger studies... Montanabw^(talk) 19:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it really proper to use such an ugly trot to illusrtate the article? Sure, it's about the only under-saddle pic we got available, but even I, by no means a dressage expert, can see that there is so much going wrong with that trot. It ain't feel proper. --Pitke (talk) 14:17, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not thrilled with the image on a number of levels, (overbent) but the AT pics of animals being ridden are generally not very good. That said, a lot of people in the states think that's lovely trot with nice extension and a nice "headset" (I'm just saying, don't kill the messenger) BUT if you can find a better one, I'm in! Montanabw^(talk) 21:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

The Turkmen government sponsors these trips to their national festival. Can a benefactor of this sponsorship be a reliable editor of this topic? Semillana (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why not, so long as others are reviewing the edits, and I am. (We can invite more people from WPEQ or elsewhere to come over if needed?) teach American history at a local college and I sometimes edit American history articles, for example. WP:COI is a factor here, but unless the person is is being paid to edit, I think we're fine. Ulruppelt strikes me as a good-faith fan of the breed who happens to own a couple of them, which, frankly, is kind of necessary to have expertise in the breed. Semilana, if you have a specific concern, then state it here and please avoid the innuendo. Montanabw^(talk) 22:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to respond. My only concern as another admirer of this breed and an owner myself is that there are many controversial subjects which are being swept under the carpet in order to provide some window dressing to the outside world. And I don't think it is favorable on the long term for breeders, owners and enthusiasts to avoid severe issues like soundness. Just to add my own experience, I know there are massive problems in some breeding programs, but when you try to research them on the internet you'll never find anything conclusive because either nobody is interested in in-depth research or has the necessary funding.

Semillana (talk) 03:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

My position is that WP:RS and WP:V apply to everyone, all sides. Shoot links to what's out there, I'm pretty good at sorting out what can or cannot be used on wiki. Looking in Google scholar for searches on the breed name (spelled with and without the hyphen) would be most useful. Montanabw^(talk) 05:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's a word of one of the more enlightened breeders to consider with regards to health topics: http://www.karakumstud.com/blog.nsf/d6plinks/JEIE-6L5QP3 Semillana (talk) 20:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I wish their page had fewer misspellings and some links to actual case studies... Montanabw^(talk) 05:32, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

That would indeed be better. Maybe it's due to the fact that Jessica's first language isn't English? However, she is already referred to in the article as the source for the global head count. And her blog used to be the most important discussion forum for breed enthusiasts at that time and her remarks didn't spark much controversy then. Semillana (talk) 15:33, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

In this particular case the IATHA supposedly buys goodwill in the form of free trips to & entertainment in Turkmenistan for ulterior motives because Akhal Tekes in Turkmenistan have been separated from the mother studbook for over a decade and no recognized parentage testing has taken place during this time. It is said that the breeding is under massive influence by the racing industry that is backed by the government and that this influence has led to a massive infusion of Thoroughbreds to create more competitive (=faster) horses for the track. In the past this conflict has led to the disposal and imprisonment of the then horse minister Geldy Kyarizov, an advocate of purebreeding and the breeder of Yanardag, the horse in Turkmensian's CoA: http://www.akhalteke.it/geldy.html

Semillana (talk) 06:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Any of this hit online newspapers? In any language? As far as horse politics go, this is unusual to have a government that involved, but not unprecedented; Slovenia sued Austria in the EU over who gets to use the breed name Lipizzan and the Spanish are, I think, still spatting (also in the EU) over which clique gets to be the "real" registry. Sigh. Montanabw^(talk) 05:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

One of the articles mentioned that Amnesty International followed the Kyarizov case, can you find anything on him on THEIR web site? That would be the kind of third party publication that would be particularly credible here... Montanabw^(talk) 05:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

There are no statements to Geldy's case other than he fell out with then president Nyazov over the latter's policies: http://www.tmhelsinki.org/en/modules/news/article.php?storyid=37 BTW, Nyazov used to be president of MAAK at some time, supposedly on the initiative of Geldy: http://www.karakumstud.com/web/karakum.nsf/Articles/CC330451C63DDBBC85257497007EDBED (yes, that site again). Semillana (talk) 08:44, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

To Semillana: Are you really convinced that following an invitation to the meetings of IAHA to Turkmenistan discredits a person's knowledge of Akhal Tekes? I'm asking since you're obviously respecting Jessica Eile's knowledge who has been a repeated participant. Ulruppelt (talk) 18:10, 20 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

Drop it both of you, please argue your breed politics elsewhere. As far as the issues go, please find reliable sources, and ideally ones from third party sources where possible (or at least sources on BOTH sides of an issue). Wikipedia has a very strong policy on personal attacks and you are BOTH skating a little close to this edge. Montanabw^(talk)

Let me just add that at least one of the pictures presented in the article could be subject to challenge elsewhere as not actually being an Akhal Teke: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3APkatfin&redirect=no This is based on the fact that no Turkmen horses have been registered with the studbook for over a decade now. This leaves the state of roughly half of the world's population in limbo. I'm not saying this is good or bad or anything, but I find it fair enough to state this somewhere in the article.

Semillana (talk) 05:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, breed politics. First, all of this needs to meet WP:RS (BTW that Chronicle of the horse article meets WP:RS). I think the both of you need to read Andalusian horse, which beame a featured article in spite of breed politics that are seriously intense. They are, of course, horrified that someone threw in a few Arabians into the gene pool in the 19th century and they want to pretend it just. didn't. happen. They also have two different registries fighting with each other over who has the "real" and "offical" registry. Similarly the English General Stud Book doesn't like the American Stud Book because they think the Yanks snuck in a few Arabs - and god forbid, maybe even a couplie of American Quarter Horses into their stud book. Another bunch of folks are trying to recreate the Neapolitan horse even though the "pure" type clearly no longer exists...if it ever did (the idea of "purity" being something of a 19th century concept in the western hemisphere, after all...) I don't mean to be harsh, but working on multiple breed articles has made me a little bit jaded and cynical. (My favorite gossipy rumor, which I cannot find a WP:RS to support, unfortunately, is a rumor that the so-called "straight Egyptian" Arabians, supposedly the most "pure" of all, may have had a few Waler horses snuck into the gene pool during WWI...) . And all of you pale in comparison to the breed politics surrounding the Gypsy horse, which make me want to poke my eyes out with pins (grin). Montanabw^(talk) 23:10, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry - made a mistake by addressing this issue on the user talk page of the user who decided to revise the photo of a World Champion back to a less famous Akhal Teke. My point is that the photo leading into the article should represent the most characteristic Akhal Teke in terms of breed characteristics. World Champions are graded by a group of judges who are recognized breed experts. Thus we can expect them to represent the distinctive type of an Akhal Teke. Any photo of any Akhal Teke who is typical for the breed is likely to be recognized because it is a rare breed. WP:NOADS - How is an ad defined? On the Wikipedia Thoroughbred page the photo of the head of Rock of Gibraltar, a Champion racehorse and stallion owned by Coolmore - doesn't seem to raise the ad concern. A photo named Dagat-Geli.jpg should raise even less concerns. We might not have found the best picture yet but I really think we should use the photo of an Akhal Teke that is recognized as incorporating all the distinctive breed characteristics. Ulruppelt (talk) 17:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

Not unless a Henneke body condition score of 3 is a breed trait. The horse might be a champion, the photo is terrible, it could be the lead for hard keeper. I don't mean to be unkind, but you need a horse in better flesh than that image... the dark stallion would be a better lead image in many respects, other than not having the cream gene. (But then, the lead in Andalusian horse is a dark bay even though the majority of Andalusians these days are grays...) and frankly, the hysterical hissy fit going on at commons over whose horses are the "real" Akhal-Tekes is not giving me a lot of confidence in the lot of you. Can you give me ANYTHING that approaches a source that will pass the WP:RS criteria and isn't a facebook page or a message board? (Note: The Chronicle of the Horse article passes the WP:RS test) Seriously, I'll follow the good source material wherever it leads, but I really don't want to see an internal round of "Breed politics" take over this article (and I know breed politics, in any breed it's nasty...) Montanabw^(talk) 22:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Where both of you can agree, I will try to help you continue to improve this article. So help me answer the following questions, ideally with URLs if you can (and if in Russian or something, maybe run them through Google translate to see if they can be even remotely understood - I can usually decipher the German ones, but the French ones, not so much)::

1. What are the "main" registries and how bad do they have conflicts with each other (it's obvious there is a conflict)? I am looking for the USA/UK groups and the ones in Turkmenistan I get the impression there are at least two, one "closed" to a lot of Turkemenistan horses, the other somehow sponsored by the Government of Turkemenistan. Can you help me identify the competing "players" here, whether you agree with their views or not?
2. Is one registry "OK" (more or less) with the bits of Thoroughbred breeding that is apparently there?
3. Which groups are more or less openly worrying about cryptochids and other genetic problems and which disputes that there is a problem?
4. Can you locate for me some solid studies on things like the degree of inbreeding in the breed? The gene pool is, obviously, small enough that it has to be a concern.
5. The stuff on the interaction between the Turkmenistan government and the breeding of horses is interesting to me (full disclosure: my undergrad degree was Political Science with an emphasis on International Relations, but I got it in the 80s when the Cold War was still relevant, so this post-Soviet-Era stuff fascinates me...) so can you provide more sources on both the government's support of the breed and their shadier actions?
6. What can you tell me about the history of imports to the USA and western Europe?
7. It would be helpful to expand the history section, more sources that the rest of us can access (URLs or google books links ideal) would be good.

May add more as I think of questions. Thanks. Montanabw^(talk) 23:43, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Answers here: 1) There is only one main registry: the General Studbook managed by VNIIK: VNIIK All Russian Institute for Horse Breeding. Their passports are recognized as EU passports to transport Akhal Teke horses across borders. Registry UK is a very good address to acquire updated information about the status of the registry. When you look up e.g.: ATAA Akhal Teke Association of America you can see that they work with the General Studbook. There is a database in Russian that contains Akhal Teke horses - however, google translates ахалтекинская (Akhal Teke horses) with Thoroughbred (particularly confusing since real Thoroughbreds in Russia are managed by VNIIK as well), Quarterhorse or Frisian or other names.:Russian Akhal Teke database . The ongoing politics are discussions (basically who pays whom and how much) how the Turkmenian horses can be included in the General Studbook. Since the blood testing was only stopped for 10 years there is a fair amount of horses still alive that can be blood and DNA tested and results compared with the existing results at VNIIK and therefore their offspring proved or disproved as pureblood Akhal Tekes.

2) In a nutshell: No! The General Studbook excluded Thoroughbred cross breds from the studbook as pure bloods since 1932. From what I have heard there is no effort from the Turkmenians to include Akhal Teke partbreds as purebreds in a new stud book. They seem to be working with labs in different countries to determine the pureblood status of their horses.

3) Some European registries; the Australian and at least one of the American registries ban cryptos. Those registries might be led by breeders who breed with non-crypto stallions or have indeed had bad experience with a crypto. They have the conviction that now there are enough quality horses that are non-crypto on the grounds so that cryptos can be banned. The strong opposition is coming from breeders who have stallions with extraordinary qualities in other aspects but who are cryptos. But here is a video and you can decide if the crypto stallions behave worse than the non-cryptos. Please recognize that most of them are freshly transported breeding stallions all in a place that is new for them and that they are led without stallion chains: <iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=461917817191820" width="1280" height="720" frameborder="0"></iframe> You will recognize the names Garausup=Garayusup, and Saburbek.

4) The only study that I've come across so far is the one that I offered: see page 123 Despite of the separation and long history of the Akhal Teke horses, compared to other breeds its genetic diversity appears not to have reduced" We have to wait for someone who has access to the studies conducted in VNIIK - I'm sure they have some studies.

5) Give me your phone number :-)

6) I will answer that probably later because I need to go to the barn: USA in a nutshell: Phil and Margot Case brought over the first stallion Senetir who was a successful jumper and have bred and trained Akhal Tekes at Shenandoah Farm in Virginia ever since. Sprandel brothers from Germany brought over a herd of Akhal Tekes, went bankrupt and horses either remained with the Nez Perce tribe for the breeding of Nez Perce horses (Appaloosa-Akhal Teke mix ) or rescued by people. Another herd was brought in 1997 by Dr. Tito Pontecorvo ~ 39 horses if not more. Since then People have imported single or 2 horses from Europe and Russia. If I missed a main importer I'm happy to learn about it. In Germany we bought our first stallion in 1974 from Hermann Blatt. I know that a German TV reporter had a stallion too and probably promoted the breed with the help of Equitana. I'll tell you more when I come back from the barn. Ulruppelt (talk) 20:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

I just like to say that I don't see myself as a faction (except maybe for the animal-welfare aspect of breeding animals with defects or potential defects) because the AT community is as small and tight-knit as it is constantly bickering and I'm pretty tired of that. The only disagreement here has been about what information is included in the article and what is held back deliberately (e.g. the reportedly sterile sibling of Kortik by Rokot) to present a flawless image to the outside world. That being said I can more or less agree to all of the above. And if everybody is happy with their cryptos there should also be no need to hide the fact that they exist.

Semillana (talk) 21:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

LOL, read the talk page at Gypsy Horse; they are also very small and spat constantly. Are all of us horse people just kind of crazy? (looking at myself in the mirror and wondering if I too resemble this remark...) wikipedia is definitely NOT about helping anyone present a "flawless image" to the rest of the world. (Kind of interesting to read all the dog breed articles, most of which also have spats over disclosure of genetic defects.) Sorry, no phone number! LOL! But did Amnesty International get involved? Montanabw^(talk) 18:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Re: Geldy? Please drop any discussion of that. It will only hurt him and his family more. AI did not get involved. And I need to correct myself - I found an article with a probably more correct description of the Akhal Teke import history: Ulruppelt (talk) 07:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt And here is another history US backgrounder listing the horses that came over and more about Sprandel and I came across this article that has an interesting explanation for the pureblood status: the article mentions many sources. Ulruppelt (talk) 07:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

AI issued several calls for action, these being the most recent ones: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR61/007/2007/en , http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR61/001/2012/en The DoS cited as reason for Geldy's arrest 'reportedly because of his disagreements with the economic and political practices of President Niyazov'. Of course, animal husbandry appears to be even under their threshold of importance but it would be interesting to know what a horse breeder and former horse minister disagrees about with an autocratic president: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18397.htm Semillana (talk) 11:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. The plot thickens. Do we have an article on Geldy Kyarizov? If not, there perhaps should be. People of note to Amnesty International are generally notable, and as a rule, world publicity helps. JMO, and admittedly tangential to this article. Montanabw^(talk) 19:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a good summary of the HR situation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkmenistan Though Geldy was too unimportant to be particularly on the radar because he had no political agenda in the terms of power struggle and Nyazov used to remove officials on a regular basis he is still mentioned in several reports on RFERL, e.g.: http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1078897.html However, I think I found some other stuff that balances the official view of Turkmenistan as the fantasy land of horse mania and put it in the article. Plus there is another source, gundogar.org, which seems to have an English edition http://gundogar.org/?022000000000000000011000000 but their search seems to be based on Russian only. Again, I'm not talking breed policy, I'm trying to find an equilibrium in that Turkmenistan section. On a side note, I've heard that the famous Yanardag can't produce any offspring and is a pretty vicious horse; don't know if he is crypto or not and will not try to substantiate the whole claim/rumor. Semillana (talk) 20:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed studies on cryptorchidism in stallions across all breeds would be helpful here. i.e. are cryptos vicious or are they just obnoxious as geldings because castration doesn't get all the plumbing? I'm thinking horses like Funny Cide, for example...seems he was a crypto and unmanageable as a stallion, but is this cause-effect thing or not? (curious) Montanabw^(talk) 20:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe there is something useful if you got time on your hands:-) Selected References on Cryptorchidism in the Horse, 1966-2003 I have a single source on dissertation level that refers to behavioral issues in stallions related to cryptorchidism without any further elaboration or references. It says that it's a development over time, therefore it might be hard to assess properly and to separate poor training/management from other sources of misbehavior. And of course, any horse might develop any kind of issues if he doesn't have proper workout and is kept in a stall most of the time, as appears to be the case with Yanardag. Semillana (talk) 07:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I happen to have primary source knowledge: therefore again - leave Geldy alone - for his sake and the sake of his family! Yanardag's semen is dead. I haven't heard anything about him being a crypto. Maybe watching the video closely will reveal if both testicles have dropped. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REl9VDNgrs0 (just watched it again full screen on a 27" iMac -not a crypto as far as I can see). Geldy's son was the only one who could really handle him and ride him as a jockey to victory. He was given as a gift to the president. Ulruppelt (talk) 05:17, 29 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

to montanabw: Your question 7) We'll get help with the history section in September. Someone from my Akhal Teke group who is a native Russian speaker and fluent in English (and a professional translator) will make Russian sources available. We will add historic stud farms similar to the Arabian Horse page Ulruppelt (talk) 05:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)ulruppelt

Here's the story for you to read up about the situation Geldy Kyaryzov faced concerning the secretive breeding of Akhal Tekes and Thouroughbreds to produce faster horses for the track when taking up office as Horse Minister and his downfall related to the very same fact that he tried to remedy: https://web.archive.org/web/20100811060949/http://www.akhaltekeuk.com/Purity.html Semillana (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I hope that after the latest revisions the threats against contributors to this article ('primary source knowledge', was it received at lunch with the president?) will come to an end and that this article doesn't hold any more PR for one of the most oppressive and narrow-minded governments in the world as this would run directly opposite to the spirit of Wikipedia IMHO. After that has been established we may be able to eliminate additional BS information that has been added by myself using official sites of the current Turkmen regime. Funny enough that nobody questions this misinformation. Semillana (talk 16:03, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Next I will try to make it plausible that there doesn't exist any horse in the now Russian stud book without a Thoroughbred in its pedigree (and less so in Turkmenistan, of course), that the Turkmens always had an inclination towards those faster race horses and that the myth of 'endurance horse per se' is just another marketing tag. Would also like to have that announced additional contributor chime in on these topics. Semillana (talk) 16:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Just a comment that everyone writing on this article would be well-advised to read or re-read WP:NPOV, WP:RS and WP:V. As for the Turkenistan issues, I would also encourage looking at sites like Amnesty International or other third-party sources. They are more reliable than some of the breeder-written pages. News outlets, where possible (the BBC is often excellent) are also good sources. Montanabw^(talk) 02:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

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Some of the content on this page is due to be reconsidered & refined based on the new high-quality DNA science in this paper:

"Y Chromosome Uncovers the Recent Oriental Origin of Modern Stallions"

^[1]

"To identify the origin of Tb, we extended our samples by including the Akhal-Teke, the remnant of the Turkoman horse [19, 45], and found that Tb is the most frequent HT among 78 Akhal-Teke males (81%, Figure 4B). Thus, Tb is likely of Turkoman origin and spread widely by English Thoroughbred stallions. Additionally, the presence of Tb in many European breeds with no documented influence of English Thoroughbred stallions shows the influence of Turkoman stallions, independent of the English Thoroughbred. This finding corresponds to the geopolitical development of the region [22]."

In particular, reference 5 on the article page, and the claim it supports regarding Thoroughbred/Akhal-Teke relationships, appear to be superceded.

"Highlights: ... English Thoroughbred founder stallions can be traced back to a Turkoman origin"

Greenineugene (talk) 00:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

• Real interesting stuff. The Akhal-Teke may be a direct descendant of some Turkoman lines, and the TB from others... can't really draw a line from the AK to the TB directly. Another study suggests that there is a common ancestor to the Arab and the Akhal-Teke. I suspect that is our actual answer. These horses no doubt scattered all over and form follows function (dry climate adaptation) with variants by region selectively bred to local needs. Montanabw^(talk) 10:20, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

The cited article does indeed provide a clear reference that the Akhal-Teke is a contemporary representative of the Turkoman horse. In addition, the cited article clearly and very specifically draws a line from Turkoman to Akhal-Teke to Thoroughbred, through explicit analysis of specific known Thoroughbred stallions. This may contradict existing lore in the Arabian horse community, but the current peer reviewed DNA-based research is not ambiguous as claimed. Whether the Arabian and Akhal-Teke have common ancestors is not relevant to the precise differentiation between these breeds found in the cited article in Cell. Greenineugene (talk) 02:51, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

• http://www.thehorse.com/articles/39564/researchers-investigate-naked-foal-syndrome-in-akhal-tekes

Sourced content was reverted. 1)- If the references are in error and/or: 2)- "If" there are no or an insignificant number of Akhal-Teke's in the United States, then removal would be warranted. Since there are approximately 15 to 20% of the world population in the United States it is certainly appropriate to cover this. Not only is it appropriate it would be biased to exclude the information. The horses are also in Canada but I didn't get that far. Otr500 (talk) 08:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The sources were commercial farm links. These do not qualify as reliable sources. It is one thing to say something like "this breed now has horses in countries A, B, C, D... and even percentages. But to name people's names and such comes far too close to commercial promotion. There was also duplicative content added that was already covered earlier in the article. Please read content more carefully before adding new material. Montanabw^(talk) 19:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Please don't Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Summarily stating that all references added are commercial links is exhibiting traits of ownership that prevent article content improvements. IF the stated reasoning for complete reverting is correct then moving an external link, such as up into the body of the article with content is deemed "a commercial link" it would certainly mean that the reference to the archived Turkmen Atlary would warrant removal. Or would this be implications that an archived link is acceptable but a current workable link is not? Since I am sure this would pass as an acceptable reference I will assume you did not actually mean all the links were commercial when vaguely stating "These do not qualify as reliable sources".

The double revert is especially perplexing when a reply here acknowledges that part of the added content is acceptable (and relevant) yet all content (and references) were reverted with a vague blanket edit summary. IF you deemed that to "name people's names" was inappropriate, but other parts were acceptable, you could have either simply removed that part of the content or even used the strange and weird concept of collaboration on this page. They even offer barnstars for this. Not only could articles be improved but editors would be able to seek to make further improvements instead of just tagging the article because of the long "External links" section or a global tag.

If there is some reasoning, that is not subversive, like that we can now purchase article titles, I understand otherwise but please don't make patroller reverts that could be considered a form of vandalism. With all of this back and forth the section is acceptable, with equally acceptable content and references, but there is an issue with the second paragraph and I assume references there. By Wikipedia practices, the second paragraph could have been edited out and explained in the edit summary or then possibly (but rare) act of talk page reasoning. This would actually a good example of how to build an encyclopedia. Per this discussion, I will remove the second paragraph and add back the rest.

Note: The separate sections could be consolidated under one section to cover all countries or areas where the horse has a population. Otr500 (talk) 10:54, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Your argument is tendentious and nonsensical. If you want to propose content here at talk for us to work on, that's fine, but as it sits, it's still just a breeders' promotional site. Montanabw^(talk) 21:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Article should be updated based on new peer-reviewed research adding to the strong evidence that the Akhal-Teke is indeed the continuation of the Turkoman, and that these, not the Arabian, are the breed of foundation stallions of the modern Thoroughbred.

“Contrary to popular belief, we could detect no significant genomic contribution of the Arabian breed to the Thoroughbred racehorse, including Y chromosome ancestry.”

“Recently... an analysis of horse Y chromosome haplotypes has indicated that the Y haplotype of the “Darley Arabian” actually originated from the Turkoman[/Akhal-Teke] horse, an ancient breed from the Middle East and Central Asia that is... also an “Oriental” type breed.”

“Five of the race-use [Arabian] horses carried the Tb-oB1* haplogroup attributed to the “Byerley Turk” foundation sire of the Thoroughbred breed. Tb-oB1* is found within a variety of breeds and lineages, including the Turkomen[/Akhal-Teke]. Therefore, these five horses may carry Y chromosomes derived from ancestors common to both racing Arabians and the Thoroughbred breed.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66232-1 Greenineugene (talk) 16:44, 20 June 2020 (UTC)