Talk:Arthur Nebe

The article contains extensive quoting in the Einsatzgruppe B section:

....The idea of the gas van originated with SS-Brigadeführer Artur Nebe [sic], commander of Einsatzgruppe B, which operated in territories close to the central front and which had carried out in Belorussia large-scale shooting actions of Jews, communists, and other "asocial elements". Nebe...was familiar with the euthanasia program and killing by gas.

In September 1941, Einsatzgruppe B was faced with the task of liquidating the patients of the lunatic asylums in the cities of Minsk and Mogilev. Nebe decided to find a simpler way for his men to kill the mentally diseased, other than by shooting them. He contacted Kripo headquarters and asked for their help in carrying out the killing of the insane with either explosives or poison gas. Dr. Widmann of the Criminal Police was sent to Nebe in Minsk, but before he left, Dr. Widmann discussed with the director of the Criminal Police Technological Institute, Dr. Heess, ways of using the carbon monoxide gas from automobile exhaust for killing operations in the East, based on the experience gained from the euthanasia program. Dr. Widmann took to Minsk 400 kgs of explosive material and the metal pipes required for the gassing installations.

Nebe and Dr. Widmann carried out an experimental killing using explosives. Twenty-five mentally ill people were locked into two bunkers in a forest outside Minsk. The first explosion killed only some of them, and it took much time and trouble until the second explosion killed the rest. Explosives therefore were unsatisfactory.

A few days later an experiment with poison gas was carried out by Nebe and Dr. Widmann in Mogilev. In the local lunatic asylum, a room with twenty to thirty of the insane was closed hermetically, and two pipes were driven into the wall. A car was parked outside, and one of the metal pipes that Dr. Widmann had brought connected the exhaust of the car to the pipe in the wall. The car engine was turned on and the carbon monoxide began seeping into the room. After eight minutes, the people in the room were still alive. A second car was connected to the other pipe in the wall. The two cars were operated simultaneously, and a few minutes later all those in the room were dead.

After these experimental executions, Nebe came up with the idea of constructing a car with a hermetically sealed cabin for killing purposes. The carbon monoxide from the car's exhaust would be channeled into the sealed cabin, in which the victims stood. Nebe discussed the technical aspects of the idea with Dr. Heess and together they brought the proposal before Heydrich, who adopted it.^[1]

What should be done about this? I do believe some 'blockquote' treatment is appropriate, since the gas van is perhaps what Nebe is 'best known' for. But some of it can perhaps be converted to a narrative. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:41, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Try to re-write in a narrative where you can. I agree, I would keep the one as to history of use of the infamous gas vans. Kierzek (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Einsatzkommando is linked to from this article (with it's subsection on Einsatzgruppe B). While there's also the Einsatzgruppen article - shouldn't Einsatzgruppe B be part of the Einsatzgruppen article? At first glance, the two articles seem to be covering the same ground, although from somewhat different perspectives and using different sources.

Here's the passage that directs to Einsatzkommando article; it appears that [[Einsatzgruppe B]] redirects to [[Einsatzkommando]]:

• In 1941, just prior to Operation Barbarossa, Nebe volunteered to command Einsatzgruppe B, a mobile killing unit...

??? K.e.coffman (talk) 04:00, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Einsatzkommando was a sub-unit of the larger Einsatzgruppen (task force).

You would have the RSHA at the top - then below that the: SD and SiPo command offices, then below that:

• Einsatzgruppen A with Sonderkommando 1a, 1b and Einsatzkommando 1c, 2 and 3
• Einsatzgruppen B with Sonderkommando 7a, 7b, 7c and Einsatzkommando 8 and 9
• Einsatzgruppen C with Sonderkommando 4a, 4b and Einsatzkommando 5, 6 and 1005
• Einsatzgruppen D with Sonderkommando 10a, 10b, 11a, 11b and Einsatzkommando 12.

The above for the Eastern Front 1941-44.

Einsatzgruppe B linked to the Einsatzgruppen article. Kierzek (talk) 04:48, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to submit this for assessment as a MILHIST article - I believe it qualifies, right?

There are two areas that I don't have RS for:

• From 1918–19, he was a member of the Freikorps.

• Following the Nazi seizure of power, Daluege recommended Nebe to the position of Chief Executive of the State Police in April 1933. In October 1933 Nebe was ordered by Rudolf Diels, then head of the Gestapo, to arrange the liquidation of Hitler's rival Gregor Strasser.

Does anyone have sources to confirm this? If not, then I think the first point is fairly minor and can be dropped. On the second one - I'm not sure. I have a feeling that these details may have originated with the account by Gisevius, so I'm a bit skeptical, plus there's no follow up: what happened? Did Nebe do something? K.e.coffman (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I will go ahead and remove. The statements can be retrieved through the article history, if anyone indeed has the sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Changed some spellings before noticing that it's in American and may have missed some when I changed them back. Used {{quote| for consistency with sfns, removed synonyms and commentary about historians' comments (I think it's a fact that "he wrote" but not a fact that "he concluded" unless he wrote that he did). The results are believed to have reached Himmler. is a bit weasel, "He wrote that..." might be better. Feel free to revert anything as desired. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Ke, I doubt that with the new wording anyone will wonder who is having the insights. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

As I stated in my edit summary two RS books state the same thing that it was "believed" or presumed the results were reported by Nebe to Himmler but there is no definitive statement as to it having been done, so that is why I removed it. By the way, the article is shaping up nicely, gentlemen. Kierzek (talk) 12:52, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason not to report speculation from RS but I was uneasy about the wording, because I wasn't sure whose it was. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:12, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

It does not add anything in the end and is only speculation; the more important point which followed shortly thereafter as to the conversion/use of gas vans was shown to have been reported to Heydrich and the RSHA. Kierzek (talk) 14:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

This is copy paste from my Talk page:

Hello: I have just completed a first editorial pass of the article on Arthur Nebe. I will do a second pass tomorrow. I wanted to draw your attention to a number of things that I found so far while editing.

In the "Head of Kripo" section, I may have missed it, but what does “SD” at the end of this sentence mean? "At that point, Reinhard Heydrich was in overall command of the SiPo (Gestapo and Kripo) and the SD."

Possibly flesh out why Nebe had an “aversion” to Heydrich and Himmler? Did Heydrich report to Himmler? It’s not clear why he would be lunching with both of them.

Did the Nazis really use the term “reservations” ("…to the planned reservations for the Jews and others…") to refer to what we refer to as concentration camps? I think that the term “reservations” refers solely to Native Americans’ homesteads.

Killing Operations section – “Einsatzgruppe B's activities were also stymied by inefficiencies.” – needs clarification.

New Killing Methods section – “Nebe discussed the technical aspects of the idea with Dr. Heess…” – who is Dr. Heess??

In the meantime, please let me know if you have any questions or concerns. I'll continue working tomorrow.

Kind regards,

Twofingered Typist (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I will address these issues by editing the article. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:53, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

@Twofingered Typist: Thank you for your comments. I've clarified the issues in the article. "Reservations" was indeed the term that the source used so I kept it as is. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

For future use

• "Getting History Right": East and West German Collective Memories, on Der Fall Nebe, 1960s TV program.

K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

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Transcribed in part from user talk page
He was never a Obergruppenführer; it is cited in the article, as well. But look at the rank collar tabs at the article Gruppenführer and you will have the "photographic" evidence. Post April 1942 SS rank collar tabs. Also, the Wikimedia copy of Nebe's photo that is used states it is a portrait of Arthur Nebe in uniform of SS-Gruppenführer (Porträt Arthur Nebe in Uniform als SS-Gruppenführer mit Orden). Kierzek (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Kierzek: It's a pre-changeover Obergruppenfuhrer insignia. I've added a citation for both his rank and his place in the RSHA. I'm not sure what else you want. LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

No its not pre-change over. I also used the (copy of the) Official SS rank book published in Germany for the article RS cite. Look at it the rank collar tabs, again. Kierzek (talk) 00:13, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I've looked again and you're probably right about the insignia as his lacks the extended branch. Still, without an RS it's interpretive. I'm fine with the caption as it is, how about you?. Still, we run into the problem of him being ID's as both an Obergruppenfuhrer and a Gruppenfuhrer in various sources. Do you have an idea on where to start with a source that is definitive? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi guys, I saw your conservation. Arthur Nebe is listed as an SS-Gruppenfuhrer in the central listing of SS officers on file with Record Group 242 of the United States National Archives. These were the formal documents complied from captured German documents in 1945 which were then used for post war investigations into the SS. RG 242 also includes the original service records of the SS itself. This is the most definitive source there is on who held what SS rank and is the primary source to which all others extend. So, to answer the question, he was a Gruppenfuhrer and not an Obergruppenfuhrer. -O.R.^Comms 00:31, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

That's awesome, thank you! Do you have a link we could reference? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

This is the primary index of RG 242 . -O.R.^Comms 00:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Have you seen the corresponding microfilm or do you know where it can be found online? LargelyRecyclable (talk) 02:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Its not online, they are stored on physical microfilm at the National Archives at College Park. But, yes, I have seen them. Even have a copy of Nebe's record somewhere. He was indeed a G-Fhr. -O.R.^Comms 03:19, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, OberRanks. The book I used for RS citing in the article, which I mention above, is a copy of the official SS produced "Dienstalterliste". This was commissioned by Himmler and lists the hundreds of officers in the SS from full Colonel to General. Kierzek (talk) 12:31, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

The introduction makes up a difference as if there was a local Berlin police force. That is false, as Berlin police always was a part of prussian police force. In fact Berlin police was a state, not a local body. --129.187.244.19 (talk) 07:29, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Some quick first thoughts:

• In the Bibliography either all books should have a publisher location or none.
• "The SS – Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945": I am doubtful about that first en dash. This work seems to be normally rendered as The SS: Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945 or sometimes, and unusually, The SS, Alibi of a Nation 1922–1945.
• Gill's An Honourable Defeat seems to have lost its formatting. But it isn't used. Does it need deleting?

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I've addressed these issues. I also gave the article a light c/e and clarified some language. I'm done with the c/e for now. Looking forward to other comments. PS: there's a sentence that appears to have lost a citation; I'll look for it later. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:31, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The following broken reference: "/ last = Gill / first =Anton / Anton Gill / title = An Honourable Defeat / publishers = HarperCollins, Henry Holt 1994/1995/ " was added to the article's bibliography in January this year as User:Antongill48's only contributions to Wikipedia - it is currently unused, but from what I can see from Google books appears tohave at least some content about Nebe - whether it adds to the article may be a different matter.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you; I removed the stray code. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:05, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The statement that Nebe took part in Elser's interrogation is currently tagged - it is cited in Elser's article, and also appears to backed up by the Google books snippets from the Anton Gill book mentioned above.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi all. I am starting a review and copy edit of this article as requested. I will be on the bold side with the copy editing, so if I get anything wrong, or you don't understand why I have made a change, don't hesitate to flag it up here.

• "Nebe volunteered for military service" Is it known when? I have assumed WWI.
• According to MOS:FOREIGNITALIC "A proper name is usually not italicized when it is used". So are we treating Kriminalpolizei, Kripo, Schutzstaffel, Einsatzgruppe B, Gruppenführer etc as proper names? They are currently treated inconsistently. If they are not then {{lang}} labels should be used, not just italics code.
• "He later obtained the rank of SS-Gruppenführer" Is it known when?

Gog the Mild (talk) 13:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

• German language nouns, even common nouns, are always capitalized; and one is to use italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that are not currently used in English, per WP:MOS and MOS:TEXT. The "words" are not treated "inconsistently", for the ones which should be put in italics. Please do not use the "lang" all the way through, it is un-necessary verbiage, to say the least. There is no hard-line requirement for it. Unless the local consensus here states differently, then so be it. Kripo is not a word "per se", but only initials, so should not be in italics. Kierzek (talk) 14:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The last sentence in the lede is "The hypothesis that Nebe's motivations were based on anything other than Nazi ideology have since been discredited by historians who describe him as an opportunist and a mass murderer driven by racism and careerism." This contradicts itself - if he was "an opportunist", driven by "careerism" - than that suggests that he had motivations other than Nazi ideology (i.e. looking after himself). Clearly his involvement in the July 20 plot, whether motivated by self preservation or not, does not seem to be based on Nazism. Perhaps a slight reword?Nigel Ish (talk) 10:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The article currently uses infobox criminal which, if take on its own, implies a false link between his major crimes (i.e. mass murder while in charge of Einsatzgruppe B, involvement in euthanasia etc) and his execution. In fact his major crimes were carried out with the approval and under the explicit command of those who ordered his execution, while his execution was due to his participation in the July Plot. This is a case where trying to cram info into infoboxes loses these sorts of nuances.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:59, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Nigel Ish: The information "The English Wikipedia page about Nebe formerly falsely claimed that he "reduce[d] the atrocities committed" by his forces. This claim remained in the article until editor Ksenia Coffman removed it." is sourced to multiple reliable secondary sources as an example of apologetics for Nebe. Do these sources not represent sufficient notability to include this information? CJ-Moki (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

This is meant to be an article about Authur Nebe, rather than about Wikipedia - we do not report about every single incorrect statement that has been made over the lifetime of the article - that just distracts from what the article is doing which is presenting what is known about a rather unpleasant war criminal. We need to be very careful about appearing to use article space to promote editors here.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:53, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit conflict. The reply in edit summary by Nigel Ish is correct. It is part of the job of Wikipedia editors to correct and edit information in articles when necessary, sometimes on a regular basis. The article is about a certain individual, Nebe, not Wikipedia editors. Kierzek (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2023 (UTC)