Talk:Astaroth

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Comments

I'm not sure I agree with removing all the modern homages (?). Plenty of other pages have similar ones. Perhaps they would be better called something other than "See Also," though. —Archlords

Agreed...go ahead and add them back of you want to, but it should go under another section...perhaps "Modern Cultural References" or even just "Video Game References".

astaroth also appears as a playable character in the Soul Calibur video game series.


One of the items in the list seems a bit dubious..."Astaroth is the name of the concious internet". What the hell?
Modern cultural references needs an overhaul::

Since there are apparently so many and the section seems very cluttered how about we divide it into multiple categories, Astaroth in film, Astaroth in music, etc. I'll try and sort as best as I can.--TylerXKJ 02:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the video game Omikron The Nomad Soul Astaroth is the highest demon. Astaroth controls a super computer called IX, which in turn controlls Omikron's (a different dimension to which the soul of the player of the game is transferred) population. In the beginning of the game it is explained that your soul is transferred to Omikron to liberate it from the demons. If you fail your soul will be lost, if you succeed Omikron will be free as well as your soul.

Systems Malfunction

I'm removing the odd "Systems Malfunction" quote in the "Other" because it seems to be from a home brew RPG thats run on a college campus and not from any form of pop-culture what so ever. If it pops up again, please be kind enough to remove it. PsyckoSama 03:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem

Apart from no citations, the hardcore repetition of Astaroth's name over and over again is too redundant. Just about every sentence in the cultural references section starts with his name. All of these need to be deleted. (Ghostexorcist 03:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Wings

"In art, in the Dictionnaire Infernal, Astaroth is depicted as a nude man with dragon-like wings, hands and feet, a second pair of feathered wings after the main..."

I belive the "dragon-like" wings are placed on the wolf/dog/dragon, and not on Astaroth himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.29.90 (talk) 11:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The dragon-like wings do belong to the 'wolf', but there are also faint wings that belong to Astaroth in the background.

Use your eyes.

Demons in Christianity

I'm OK with or without the category, but Sebastien Michaelis was a Dominican theologian and exorcist, and The Dictionnaire Infernal and Paradise Lost were written by Christians. Also the Lesser Key of Solomon / Ars Goetia does assume a Christian worldview, and was certainly written by someone who believed God wanted him to summon and oppress those demons into doing his will. While I don't agree with the theologies of Michaelis, DePlancy, Milton, or the author of the Lesser Key of Solomon, from a scholarly perspective, they're considered Christian. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that qualifies this article subject as a "Demon in Christianity", since there is no such demon in Christianity. In fact, the sources for this particular stuff apparently come from Judaism (at least according to Ashtoreth#Astarte_in_Judah, which might contradict this article), so perhaps it should be narrowed down to whatever subset of Judaism came up with it, and the information added to the article. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Christians and Christianity did derive a great deal from Judaism, but gave what they took their own twist. For example, Satan was transformed from a persecuting attourney in God's court to a cosmic threat. It is a bit of a modern evangelical POV to say that Michaelis, DePlancy, and Milton aren't a part of Christianity. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not interested in discussing OT theories about Satan here, I only want to stick to the question at hand, namely Should Astaroth be called a "demon in Christianity"? None of those authors speak for other Christians or determine Christian doctrine, any more than Salman Rushdie speaks for Muslims or determines Muslim doctrine just because he happens to be one. A closer paralel would then be taking something mentioned in Rushdies writing and categorizing it under Islamic doctrine. Now there are some names of demons that do appear in books that were indeed regarded as authoritative at times within various sects of Christianity, but I don't think this is one of them that belongs in that category. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Bringing up Salman Rushdie for Islam is like bringing up Richard Dawkins for Christianity. Era is also another issue. More apt comparisons would be Averroes, Avicenna, and Ferdowsi. A lot of Muslims don't agree with them, but they did contribute to Islam. And how else would you classify the works of Michaelis, DePlancy, and Milton except as Christian? It's not the core of the religion, but there is no other way to classify their work but "Christian." Ian.thomson (talk) 02:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Huh? What's wrong with just classifying it as "Occult"? Considering that it all has little to do with any of the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ, it should not be wrongly associated with those trying to follow Jesus' teachings, since it's all a bunch of totally unrelated crap that came from somewhere else. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Very little of Christianity is attributable to Jesus and is mostly totally unrelated crap that came from somewhere else. The authors I named must be classified as Christian from an NPOV, scholarly perspective, regardless of your personal view of them or what constitutes "real" Christianity. Christians did write occult texts, but they still wrote as Christians. Should we not count C.S. Lewis as a Christian author because he also wrote fantasy? Ian.thomson (talk) 02:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this article or its origin, however, it very explicitly states a connection to Christianity right smack in the middle of its only section:

He also goes by the name ‘Ashtart/Astarte which was rendered in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible as Astharthe (singular) and Astharoth (plural), that last form rendered in the King James Version of the Bible as Ashtaroth.

That statement is unsourced, so either it is incorrect and should be removed, or it's correct and the category is legitimate. Til, you've been bold, and I've reverted. Now it's time for discussion. Please establish consensus before removing it again.

02:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

You don't know anything about this article because you followed me into it looking for my contribs to revert, didn't you? Please look up WP:STALK. And to educate you a little about the subject, the Biblical reference is to a pre-Christian Phoenician goddess (female) who is covered at Astarte, not to this male demon who was never heard of until the 1500s, unless it was in some Midrash or kabbalah work, we're still waiting for the source on that one. Definitely not a "Demon in Christianity". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
To Mann Jess: I've added a reference that shows the word "Astaroth" is used in the Vulgate.
To Til Eulenspiegel: Wait, you'll count Midrashim or Kabbalah as Jewish, but you won't count a Dominican Exorcist or Milton as Christian? That's ridiculous. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Not ridiculous. Simply find out whether it's Midrashim or kabbalah, then we can add a specific cat for "Midrashim" or "Kabbalah". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
No, this figure is written about in what is and has been the Christian equivilants to Midrashim (Milton's poetry) and Kabbalah (the theology of a Dominican priest). If we were to count Astaroth as a "Demon in Judaism" for a mention in a Midrash, we have to include him as a "Demon in Christianity" because he's mentioned by Milton. If we were to count him as a figure in Judaism because of a mention in a Kabbalistic text, we have to count him as a figure in Christianity because he's mentioned in the work of a Dominican theologian. It's a POV double standard to hold Christianity only to what Jesus said or only to the New Testament, but label as Jewish anything that any random rabbi said, even if a significant parts of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) rejects, criticizes, or at least advises against it. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
You missed my point. What I'm saying is, we find out if this originates from Kabbalah or Midrash (which remains to be seen) then we can add a more specific category than simply "Judaism". I could also see argument for adding Milton-specific or Dominican-specific categories. But categories are tricky things, they aren't easy to tweak and absolutely shouldn't be used to imply things that aren't true, and 'Demons in Christianity" is far too broad and implies something that isn't true, namely that this is a demon according to Christianity. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Another thing I notice, Milton definitely realizes he is talking about the female Phoenician goddess, Astarte, and the quote better belongs on her article, than on this one. Milton must have been better educated on classical deities than these occultists were. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

November 2013 redux

The Pseudomonarchia Daemonum proves Astaroth is a Christian demon too. Udine2812 (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I think not - there is no Christian church, group or sect that has ever taught that any Astaroth exists. The existence of "Astaroth" is not a Christian teaching and never has been. The only similar name is for the Canaanite idols or totems as explained in the article. Your link has the same problems as those discussed above: it is not a source purporting to represent any doctrines actually taught by any form of Christianity. Please stop adding the inappropriate "Christian demon" category. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Change to Title Section: Astaroth DukeSS of Hell, Queen of Heaven

Proposed Change to Page, COMBINING ALL INFORMATION and History ABOUT ASTAROTH aka ASTARTE.

It is also a city?

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