Talk:Britain

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Not moved, 1 April 2021, from Britain to Britain (disambiguation), see discussion.

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Defining Britain

"The island containing England, Wales, and Scotland. The name is broadly synonymous with Great Britain, but the longer form is more usual for the political unit." – Britain | Definition of Britain in English by Lexico Dictionaries
"England, Scotland, and Wales" – Britain | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
" the island of Great Britain" – Britain | Definition of Britain by Merriam-Webster

Kmcdm and Gareth, please desist from edit-warring and stop removing this common meaning from this disambiguation page, which should point readers to all the usual meanings. . . dave souza, talk 12:49, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

This page should be a redirect to United Kingdom

This page should be a redirect. The page Britain (disambiguation) is the proper place to disambiguate. America redirects to United States, and you have to go to America (disambiguation) to find alternative meanings. The same should apply here; "Britain"/"British" overwhelmingly means "UK"/"pertaining to UK" throughout Wikipedia and the English language corpus, just as "America"/"American" means "US"/"pertaining to US". GPinkerton (talk) 19:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but there is a case for getting rid of an article which is largely a coatrack however we would need to be very clear about this misnomer -----Snowded ^TALK 19:58, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

@Snowded: It's not really a misnomer if it's the WP:PRIMARY meaning of the word. There's nothing in the lead of United States saying "oh and by the way what everyone calls America is only a small fraction of America". There's nothing about the term "Britain" that ties it to the island of Great Britain, it's always had a wider meaning, as in the ancient Greek terms "British Isles" and "Lesser Britain" (now called Ireland). We also don't need to state that America is not all in America and includes Hawaii and Guam and so on. GPinkerton (talk) 23:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

You should review the British Isles naming disputes on wikipedia for a contrary view and it is a current politial topic. If you check I'm OK with a redirect as long as the proper naming stays clear in the UK article -----Snowded ^TALK 06:01, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Snowded: I'm not proposing changing anything there, it's just odd that a name almost universally used as equivalent to UK can't be used in articles as a plain redirect. It's always been the country's common name after all, even if it's not the official long one. The style guides cited in the lead sentence of the UK article says things like: "Normally write about Britain or, when there is an Irish angle to the story, to mainland Britain. The United Kingdom or the abbreviation UK is to be avoided whether as a noun or an adjective unless the story has a specific relevance to Northern Ireland that would make the use of "Britain" or "British" wrong." and "British: This is the adjectival form of Britain, but the word is also frequently employed as the adjectival form of United Kingdom; thus “British government” is used at least as frequently as “United Kingdom government”, and “British citizen” is actually the correct official term for a citizen of the United Kingdom. As an adjective, therefore, the term British is frequently inclusive of Northern Ireland; it is only the one specific nominal term “Great Britain” which invariably excludes Northern Ireland." GPinkerton (talk) 03:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Having looked again at the British Isles naming dispute, it looks as though the issue is local and minority interest, and is focused on the term British Isles not "Britain" anyway; I'm pretty sure that historical dispute doesn't have much bearing on most of Wikipedia's editors and readers, whom I think would be served better with a redirect than with a disambiguation page at this URL. GPinkerton (talk) 03:22, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, I fully agree. I think most users searching for "Britain"would expect to find the United Kingdom article. A hatnote with a link to other uses on a disambiguation page seems the obvious way to go. Waggers TALK 11:53, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

This page should remain a redirect to the UK article. that is the main meaning of the word Britain when used today as many sources show. Britain should continue to redirect to United Kingdom. There was no need for this to be changed without discussion. I have undone todays change. RWB2020 (talk) 20:07, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, no. 1) The preceding discussion was not a proper move discussion and there was EXTREMELY limited participation to establish consensus, and 2) the move should not have been done as a cut and paste move. That was completely inappropriate. I've restored the status quo. If you disagree, please follow instructions at WP:RM to initiate a proper move discussion and establish consensus for this. older ≠ wiser 20:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)There was insufficient consensus on this given the previous discussions and this being a controversial, see Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Britain, please file a formal WP:RM if you desire a primary redirect. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:15, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I was not involved in the previous discussion at all nor how any change was carried out at the time. All i saw was the change made to the UK page and this page with no conversation on either about making the change after many months of how it had been so i reverted. I didnt see the conversation started on the other talk page about this before i reverted the page initially. I do think something like this should have been discussed more and on all the impacted pages, before the change was suddenly made and after just a couple of hours. Britain absolutely should be a redirect to the UK page but i wont revert any of these pages on this again and will wait and see if others agree with the change or not. If there is support for it restoring it as a redirect then we can start the appropriate process to do it, if not then i will accept the change. I just dont like seeing any significant changes made without clear consensus on something like this. Sorry if i responded in haste. RWB2020 (talk) 20:50, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Prior to this page being made into a redirect, it did atleast make clear that Britain usually refers to the United Kingdom, and then went on to other uses. If we are undoing the redirect that was made and going back to how things were four months ago, the page should at least be worded in the way it was before the redirect was made. One of my instant concerns when i saw this redirect removed, was the fact the page now gives equal status to the usage of Britain between UK and the Island of Great Britain, even though Primary usage is absolutely about the country, not the island. RWB2020 (talk) 21:27, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

It's complicated, which suggests sending the reader to a dab where they can pick the flavour of Britain they had in mind. This version seems best to me, though I would also consider swapping the priorities of UK and GB. If we want to deviate substantially from the status quo ante then the subject is important enough to merit a properly publicised RfC. Certes (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

More accurate wording needed for the Dab page

Ok following the discussion above there does not seem to be others wanting to restore the redirect, so i accept we have to keep this as a dab page. But i really think the current wording of the page is inaccurate because it contradicts itself. it says usually refers to, and then lists very different things. I believe its more accurate if we use the wording that was stable (before it was turned into a redirect a few months ago), and that wording was fundamentally different. The wording before made clear its usually refers to the country, and then listed the other things it is sometimes used to refer to such as the island. If that was the stable wording before and was accurate, why now have this new wording that totally contradicts what was said before, especially as we have done away with the redirect to restore the status quo? The country remains the primary meaning of Britain, even if we are no longer redirecting to the UK page. Please can we not restore that stable wording or atleast make an adjustment to the new wording to make things clearer? RWB2020 (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

The wording you suggest would be an appropriate start to Britain (disambiguation) if Britain were an article on a primary topic. However, the reason for putting the disambiguation page at the base name is that we found no primary topic. In such cases, MOS:DABFIRST recommends the standard introductory line followed by a list of meanings. We've placed the common meanings at the top, per MOS:DABORDER. Certes (talk) 22:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 1 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that there is no primary topic for this title. (non-admin closure) – Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Britain → Britain (disambiguation)Britain (disambiguation) – Britain is widely used as a term for the UK by the media^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4], general population, the British government and related^[5]^[6]^[7] and non-British government related services^[8]^[9]^[10]. It barely ever refers to other items, especially the ones under 'usually refers to'. Britain should redirect to United Kingdom for these reasons.

References

– Fixing26 (talk) 18:47, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Weak oppose "Britain" is commonly used to refer to the island, for example in "The Scottish Islands: The Bestselling Guide to Every Scottish Island" and many other sources. As someone who has lived in England my whole life I only recently found out that "Britain"/"Great Britain"/"British" also refer to the UK rather than the island. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:54, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Strong Support - The primary use of the name Britain is to refer to the United Kingdom as most reliable sources clearly show. It is not the same thing as Great Britain which is the island. Britain absolutely should redirect to the UK page to avoid confusion and as its the primary use. When organisation talk about Britain it is primarily about the country not Great Britain the island as a quick google search will show. Also worth noting it was until recently a redirect but that got undone due to the wrong process being used when it was turned into a redirect the last time. And one final point America redirects to USA page, this is a very similar situation. RWB2020 (talk) 19:33, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
"America" (singular) almost always means the US, at least that's what I've always heard, the same isn't true for Britain. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:39, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

The dab page has been at this title for almost its entire history since its creation in 2001. Britain was a redirect for a few hours in 2007 , and then again for three months between November 2020 and February 2021 . – Uanfala (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Inclined toward oppose. The term Britain in the context of an encyclopedia could have numerous meanings. Replacing the disambiguation with a primary topic redirect would be invitation to collect bad links on it. Having edited a fair number of articles on early American history, Britain is common shorthand for one of the predecessors of the present United Kingdom and replacing with a redirect would not be an improvement as the errant links would no longer be as obvious as when linked to a disambiguation page. Less frequently perhaps, but the same can arise where Britain should link to Roman Britain rather than the current UK. It goes with the territory of having a 2000+ year history associated with the same place name. older ≠ wiser 20:01, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. Redirecting as suggested is likely to increase, not avoid, confusion. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 20:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Dabconcept. Britain has historically referred to varying concepts around the island or the national entities occupying it. I think there should be an article at this title explaining the evolution of that usage, with unrelated uses (such as people with the surname) moved to a separate disambiguation page. BD2412 T 23:40, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
- You mean like Britain (place name)? older ≠ wiser 00:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- I agree some sort of set index or similar, the place name article might do, links that clearly refer to one of the specific meanings can be changed but its not always obvious which article some links are for. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:57, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Oppose. The term is ambiguous. Merriam-Webster gives three definitions (island of Great Britain; UK; Commonwealth). Cambridge Dictionary (CUP) defines Britain only as "England, Scotland, and Wales". UK is probably the most common meaning, but I don't think it quite qualifies as a primary topic. Readers may assume one meaning when another was meant, and a dab will highlight the ambiguity rather than potentially leading them to the wrong definition. Certes (talk) 00:33, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Oppose per above arguments.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Oppose - No WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 04:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Oppose. No WP:PTOPIC. In common usage, Britain may be either the United Kingdom as a whole or just the big island within it; and both are sloppy and inaccurate. Creating a PTOPIC is a guaranteed way to collect bad links - I found my way to this discussion because I've just fixed 2 which had been created sometime during the last 2 months.Narky Blert (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Oppose – remains too ambiguous with multiple major definitions in the historical context.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:21, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
Weak Oppose (for now), Britain usually applies to the island, there is common usage for Britain to refer to the UK but until Northern Ireland becomes part of Ireland proper, I think the dab page should stay for now. PyroFloe (talk) 07:20, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Britain as the British Islands or British Realm

Just making a minor addition to include the Crown Dependencies, and (caveated with a "depending on context") including the British Overseas Territories, but this seems disputed?

So to state the facts, hopefully not controversial:

The Crown Dependencies are not part of the United Kingdom, nor are the British Overseas Territories.
The UK & CDs are the British Islands.
There is the realm of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, a Commonwealth realm, comprising the UK, CDs, and BOTs.

It seems an omission to not clarify that "Britain", depending on context, refers to any of:

the UK
the British Islands, eg "Nearly a third of the resident population in Jersey were born in other parts of Britain meaning there are strong family links between this Island and the UK." https://www.londonoffice.gov.je/about-jersey/jersey-and-the-uk/
The "one undivided realm" of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, ie excluding independent realms with a shared head of state (Australia, NZ, Canada, etc). https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-overseas-territories-security-success-and-sustainability

Unfortunately, terminology is often wrong, confused, or misused (often just for convenience) due to the easy oversight of the CDs and BOTs, hence useful to clarify at Britain to help readers find the correct page.

Welcome comments from User:WikiDan61 and User:Ghmyrtle. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.60.99.72 (talk) 21:13, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@82.60.99.72: Can you cite examples where the term Britain is understood to include the entire realm? Preferably from published newspapers, journals, or the UK government itself. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 22:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm surprised that the Jersey government site refers to "other parts of Britain", but recognise that it does. However, the UK paper on the Overseas Territories does not seem to refer to them as "part of Britain" - it refers to "part of Britain's life and history", and "part of the realm", but those words seem to have been chosen carefully and do not indicate that they are seen as "part of Britain". Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the feedback. Yes the third use of Britain is less frequent than the other two but can be found in (1) areas that directly relate to the realm, typically Royal prerogative powers and relatedly (2) those areas where BOTs are not self-governing, such as international treaties and defence.

The perogative powers are discussed in eg Governance of Britain: Review of the Executive Royal Prerogative Powers: Final Report (note the use of "Britain" not UK) and shows granting of honours, ratification of treaties, and deployment of armed forces, among others, are perogative powers relating to the realm.

Two examples:

1. Honours

The British honours system relates to the realm as it falls under the royal perogative, but separate from eg Australian honours and awards system and others sharing the head of state (separate perogative powers). Examples:

"This [The Order of the Garter] is the oldest and most senior order of chivalry in Britain" https://www.royal.uk/the-king-and-honours Here "Britain" is the realm as the award of the Order of the Garter is not limited to the UK in the strict sense, but the whole realm.

"So great is the prestige of the Victoria Cross that it takes precedence over all other orders and medals in Britain, and recipients are entitled to add V.C. after their name." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Victoria-Cross-British-military-decoration This is the highest decoration for valour in the British armed forces, ie the armed forces recruited from and primarily responsible for the defence of the realm (UK, CDs, BOTs), not just the UK.

2. Gibraltar and Brexit

Recent Reuters article: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spain-ready-sign-deal-with-britain-gibraltar-early-wednesday-minister-2023-11-28/

"Spain, Britain close to deal over Gibraltar..." Here, and in the article "Britain" can't mean the UK in the strict sense alone, but relates to the sovereign entity that has the capacity to ratify a treaty with application to the UK and Gibraltar, ie the realm, as this power is exercised via royal perogative.

"Spain, Britain and the European Union agreed on Dec. 31, 2020, hours before Britain's full exit from the bloc, that Gibraltar would remain part of EU agreements..." Here the issue relating to Gibraltar arose precisely because British treaties can refer to more than just the UK in international relations. In this case, British exit from the EU treaties had consequences in Gibraltar (and others, eg Akrotiri and Dhekelia). This wouldn't be the case if "Britain" meant just the UK.

"... historically an important military base for Britain..." Armed forces pertain to the realm (eg His Majesty's Naval Service), not just the UK due to both reasons (1) and (2).

"... since Britain voted in 2016 to leave the European Union" An additional(!) meaning here, grouping the UK and Gibraltar (both voted), arising because treaties can and did here affect parts of the realm.

Thanks 82.60.99.72 (talk) 20:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanations. So in terms of what we need to change on this disambiguation page... it it simply a case of adding "the realm of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom" to the list somewhere? As the realm isn't a place as such, should it go into "Other uses" or "See also"?

Being a disambiguation page, we do not want to include lengthy explanations.

Worth noting that although we have an article on the monarchy, we don't have an article on the realm of the monarchy, which makes its inclusion here a bit difficult. Waggers TALK 10:01, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comments. How about:

The Commonwealth realm of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, comprising the United Kingdom, the Crown Dependencies, and British Overseas Territories.

and placed as the third bullet point under Great Britain? As you say, it's not a "place" as such, but an entity in international law. The useful part is to link to the CDs and BOTs as these can be confused (and varying terminology over the years), and also linking to Commonwealth realm clarifies the category of entity we are referring to. Citations can be added to the sources above. Thanks! 82.60.99.72 (talk) 10:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That works for me :) Waggers TALK 10:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Please ensure any addition complies with WP:MOSDAB, in particular, WP:DABONE and WP:DABMENTION$. older ≠ wiser 10:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. To be WP:DABONE and WP:DABMENTION compliant, how about:

The Commonwealth realm of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, comprising the United Kingdom, the Crown Dependencies, and British Overseas Territories.

as linking to Monarchy of the United Kingdom seems best as the CDs and BOTs are mentioned there in the first paragraph, and a redirect link to Commonwealth realm. 82.60.99.72 (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the inclusion of "the Commonwealth realm", as this includes all countries that count Charles III as their monarch, including Australia and Canada, among others. Certainly no one considers Australia or Canada to be included when speaking of "Britain". WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It would be simpler if the common word "realm" was used, rather than "Commonwealth realm", as this could easily produce confusion. So, "The realm of the Monarchy of the United Kingdom, comprising the United Kingdom, the Crown Dependencies, and British Overseas Territories." Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:28, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

There are 15 Commmonwealth realms, the British realm is just one. Fine to just use "realm" if more clear. 82.60.99.72 (talk) 17:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I concur with Ghmyrtle's suggestion. I also recommend that this be placed as the third bullet point at the top of the article, as this is certainly the least common interpretation of the term. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:31, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

That's now updated. Thanks all for your input, it's certainly improved the text. 82.60.99.72 (talk) 13:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to all for a good discussion. This is how we build WP:CONSENSUS. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 12:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

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