Talk:Capture of Damascus (1918)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. There is some dissent, with minority voices saying that "Capture of Damascus" is not ambiguous as the 1918 is widely known thus. And others saying that the recent fall may be primary topic on common usage. Overall, however, the consensus is that the two titles are ambiguous, and the articles are moved accordingly.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• Capture of Damascus → Capture of Damascus (1918)
• Fall of Damascus → Fall of Damascus (2024)

– These titles are ambiguous and should point to the dab page Battle of Damascus (as Siege of Damascus already does). The simplest solution is not to haggle over fall/capture but to just append dates. Damascus has fallen/been captured several times on top of these two instances, which are in no way primary topics for these terms. Srnec (talk) 04:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support: Due to the reasons above I agree. Changing the name of the article will reduce ambiguity around the two topics AsaQuathern (talk) 05:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support. There would be other events as well. Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 06:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support due to the titles' ambiguity Hexalogical (talk) 08:00, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

• Wait The current situation in Syria is quite fluid. The title of Battle of Damascus (2024) was changed to Fall of Damascus following several discussions as there wasn't a battle or siege. I'm not convinced that it ought to exist as a separate article as it seems that it was just a consequence and detail of the Fall of the Assad regime and so ought be merged into that article. But maybe there will be fighting yet as the rebel factions jockey for position while the transitional government clamps down on looting and disorder.

In the meantime, the current titles seem to be working fine as the readership for the current Fall of Damascus yesterday was 172,672 while the equivalent readership for the historical Capture of Damascus was just 1,201. The current event is currently the primary topic and so, if it works don't fix it.

Andrew🐉(talk) 09:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, for now. Who knows what history will know this as, but Damascus has a long history and has fallen and been fought over many times, it seems wrong to decide that this is THE fall of Damascus when, unlike the fall of Kabul, it's unclear if this is even what people are calling it. Bruhpedia (talk) 12:45, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support. For anyone who knows a tiny bit of history, this title without a year appended is between confusing and meaningless. Damf1 (talk) 12:53, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, for the reasons above. -> AmrAlWatan 💬 🕗 13:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

Won't be surprised if there is another fall of Damascus in history Thehistorianisaac (talk) 16:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support for the reasons stated above. Theofunny (talk) 18:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Feeglgeef (talk) 19:51, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support: In concurrence with the nominator. XxTechnicianxX (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support per above. CitrusHemlock 21:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, there were falls of Damascus in history and could be more in the future given the current geopolitical instability, but hopefully not. Randomdudewithinternet (talk) 22:34, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom. RobertJohnson35 (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait on 2024 article per @Andrew Davidson; support on 1918 article. Hurricane Clyde 🌀^{my talk page!} 23:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait if WP:DISM I concur QalasQalas (talk) 02:40, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Support for the one in 1918, and Wait for the one in 2024 due to probable another siege of Damascus in the following days.-- Jason2016426 (talk) 05:16, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

how is another siege probable? AsaQuathern (talk) 06:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

As stated, Damascus has been besieged and has fallen numerous times in its history of several thousand years, so unless the title indicated WHICH fall is being described, it is going to be confusing. Also, taking Damascus in isolation is rather odd - why not mention the fall of Aleppo, of Homs, of Hama, of Qamlishli even - unless you think there should be separate articles on each of these! My suggestion would be to alter this to "Fall of the Assad regime in Syria" which would make it more specific and would allow inclusion of the liberation of other parts of Syria? It would also enable the article to update on the developments of whatever form of government replaces the Assad regime. Rif Winfield (talk) 08:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Would also like to add that Israel is currently invading Syria. If they make it to Damascus it would not be a stretch to say that they would besiege it AmrAlWatan 💬 🕗 15:35, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see thanks for the response AsaQuathern (talk) 01:41, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, for the reasons listed above. 83.58.4.147 (talk) 17:02, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, this is probably not the first time Damascus has "fallen" given its incredible age. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 18:44, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Support – as well as disambiguating between the many times damascus has had a battle or a seige, it would be consistent with other articles, such as Fall of Kabul (2021) DimensionalFusion (talk · she/her) 13:37, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait on the 2024 article per @Andrew Davidson; Support the 1918 change Freaky.jpeg (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support Capture of Damascus (1918), wait on the 2024 events until things are more stable. ZLima12 (talk) 20:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support, for the reasons mentioned above. "Fall of Damascus" (no date) should be a Disambiguation page, linking to articles on each specific siege/fall in Damascus long history. Regards, DPdH (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose for 2024, Support for 1918. The recent fall is much more notable, having been recent as well as being the culmination of the Syrian Revolution, a very major conflict. For 1918, adding the date removes ambiguity. Pluma (talk) 03:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Support both Fall of Damascus (2024) and Capture of Damascus (2024) –eventually paired with Capture of Damascus (1918)– per consistency with similar established articles and due to the titles' ambiguity. "Fall of Damascus" sounds like "fall of Rome" (a definitive fall to the bottom), while the date specifies circumstances and hence a more precise context. Ideologically speaking, as "fall of Damascus" has been coined by the pro-Assad forces, that's not very neutral: despite what they think, Damascus didn't 'fell' to eternal despair, it 'fell' to stand up higher in future. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 12:15, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that suggests that "pro-Assad forces" coined the term? Besides, that the term can be understood as functional to "pro-Assad forces" does not mean it is non-neutral or biased. In my opinion there may be a very slight tilt but nothing out of hand and that does not mean that other naming proposals should be acepted automatically. Desalado (talk) 15:27, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Support. Damascus had numerous control changes throughout its history. Applying the year makes it more specific. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 00:16, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose According to the viewer data provided by Andrew Davidson, the current page titles of "Fall of Damascus" and "Capture of Damascus" work perfectly fine for viewers at the moment. It is best that we keep the titles as they are, at least for the "Fall of Damascus", since this is the most recent and the one that in our times will be the most relatable (for the global audience of English Wikipedia at least). Nxavar (talk) 09:46, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

FYI, here's the latest data comparing the readership for the Battle, Capture and Fall titles. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:53, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Wait for 2024, Support 1918 change. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 03:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing to wait for. If "Fall of Damascus (2024)" is not the right title, that can be fixed later, but "Fall of Damascus" certainly isn't. Srnec (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

See @Andrew Davidson's comment—right now, "Fall of Damascus" satisfies the criteria for a primary topic (most searches for "Fall of Damascus" are probably looking for the most recent one), and it'll probably keep being the primary topic for a while. The main question is how long this will last. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 23:58, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to have to answer that question, since we have WP:PT2. Srnec (talk) 02:53, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I mean, we kinda do, because of WP:PT1. The two conflict here. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose While “fall”. Is difficult due to WP:RECENTISM, it is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME and what most people are looking for right now, but that could change, and we can change at that point (eg TOOSOON). When we look at “capture” while it might be reasonable to make an assumption that it should be lumped in with “battle” but when looking at wikinav, it shows no real use of the hat note to bring people to the battle, so people are very likely finding what they’re looking for. The principles of WP:NATURALDAB apply. This is further reinforced by the fact that a single digit percentage of people going to the dab page appear to be realling looking for capture, and also reflects less than a single digit percentage of inbound viewers to capture. TiggerJay (talk) 06:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Another example just to throw out there about how the words fall, capture and battle all are similar and orbit the same topic, they are very much different just like other RMs regarding murder, killing, assentation -- yet they are very different words, and do carry different meanings, and thus also satisfy NATURALDAB. We don't need to assume that the reader or researcher doesn't know the difference and cast too wide of a net. While redirect are cheap, WP:PRIMARYREDIRECTS are not. TiggerJay (talk) 23:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Per @Tiggerjay clearly too soon. Mithilanchalputra(Talk) 14:36, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Damascus has been captured more than once. Damascus has fallen more than once. Look at all the hits for "fall of Damacsus" from before 2001. It does not come close to satisfying NATURALDAB. What it is really too soon for is declaring the fall of Damascus in 2024 to be the primary topic. Srnec (talk) 21:03, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Clearly ambiguous. I also doubt whether these are the only times that Damascus has ever fallen or been captured. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The fall already happened in 2024 and the region is volatile. Another battle or siege is very possible in the future. 73.242.68.123 (talk) 19:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Support Adding the year can specify the different battled of Damascus and can also help disambiguate another fall should it happens again. Rager7 (talk) 22:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose this event is commonly referred to as the Capture of Damascus the contemporary event is not. A hatnote is fine. This isn't the only capture of Damascus in history, but it is the only one commonly referred to as the Capture of Damascus. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Really? Is that why we have Capture of Damascus (1920)? The Siege of Damascus (634) and the Siege of Damascus (1400) also resulted in its capture. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:47, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

If you search for 'Capture of Damascus' '1920' on Google you get only circular results for the Wikipedia article or results for the 1918 capture. I'm not even sure if the 1920 event is real, if it is it does not appear to be known by the name given. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

If a city is captured then it's captured! All four are captures of Damascus. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

But only one is commonly known as the Capture of Damascus Traumnovelle (talk) 19:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

No evidence in English-language books that "capture of Damascus" uniquely refers to the 1918 event. Srnec (talk) 01:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't show anything. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:29, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

It shows that the term was more common before 1918 than after. Srnec (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

You evidently don't understand how Ngrams works and if you look most of the results are the same sources just duplicated. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose: For the specific terminology of the "capture of Damascus", the 1918 event has an incredibly rich scholarly literature. This is not matched and is unlikely to ever be matched by modern events, for which different phraseology is generally used. The specific phrasing of "capture of Damascus" is also not particularly likely to be a primary search term for the specific events in 2024. This type of events is usually characterized in terms of battles, conquests and falls. "Capture" is actually rarer and more naturally disambiguating language. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  In the top 10 GScholar hits, we have capture of Damascus by Tiglath-Pileser III, Mongol capture of Damascus, an article with Medieval Damascus in the title and a mention of the early Muslim conquest. So half of the results are not for the 1918 capture. Srnec (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Most of the other sources use the phrase incidentally in a single sentence. But there are three sources straight up front that are not only dedicated to the 1918 event, but also use the exact phrase in the title, not just the body content. The Tiglath-Pileser source, by contrast and aside from the body mention, uses "conquest" in the title. There is a clearly a very different intensity and priority of usage between the sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

For Fall of Damascus (2024): Support.

It's 2025 now. Isn't the page move overdue? ~Berilo Linea~ (talk) 06:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)