Talk:Early Middle Ages

I’ve altered the introductory summary’s “to the 10th century” to “through the 10th century.” If the High Medieval Period began in 1000, then the Early one ended in 999, or just a year short of “through the 10th century,” a much better term than the equivocal “to the 10th century.” Per my review of this Talk page, it doesn’t take up this specific matter.

Of course, these dates are necessarily imprecise anyhow, indeed as “from the late 5th or early 6th century” denotes. Likewise, the Middle Ages Wikipedia article’s “terminology and periodisation” section acknowledges “no universally agreed-upon end date.”

I've added an ^[ambiguous] tag to the following phrase in the "Transmission of Learning" subsection, asking for clarification on its meaning:

""Due to the demographic displacement that accompanied the end of the western Roman Empire, by this point most western Europeans were descendants of non-literate barbarians rather than literate Romans.""

Is this phrase claiming that during the Early Middle Ages, most Western Europeans were descended from Germanic peoples who had settled in the Roman Empire during the Migration Period (thereby displacing the Romanized population)? That's a very bold claim. The debate over the demographics of post-Roman Europe is one of the biggest difficulties among historians. The question of whether or not there was mass population displacement is controversial even regarding sub-Roman Britain, where it is most likely to have happened.

I would have re-written this passage myself but I couldn't access the original reference.theBOBbobato (talk) 19:08, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I have found and consulted the book where this passage is supposed to come from - nowhere does it claim that literacy disappeared because barbarians displaced the Romanized population. After checking the edit history of this article, I also learned that this phrase was inserted months after the citation was inserted in the article by a different user. I am removing this passage.theBOBbobato (talk) 19:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I would say neither characterization is correct. Of course, there was significant population displacement, migration, and resulting warfare and upheaval in 3rd–6th century Europe, concerning what I understand to be a representative example: the traditional narrative that the Anglo-Saxons either slaughtered or wholly displaced the Celtic or Roman Briton populations of Britain now lacks any purchase whatsoever.

I would be pretty surprised if the medieval population of any region in Western Europe that had been integrated into the Roman Empire should not be said to descend from both Germanic and Roman populations. Remsense留 19:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with removing it. The book in the citations is different from the one in the bibliography, and both are very dated. As to England, Cantor's view has long been out of fashion. Historians generally deny that there was large-scale immigration, but the latest ancient DNA research shows that nearly half the population in Anglo-Saxon ruled areas were descended from German immigrants, a partial return to the older view. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed - the assumption that a high proportion of the population of the Roman Empire was literate, especially outside the great cities, is also dubious, surely? Johnbod (talk) 22:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

How comes that Gibbon is still relied upon? The whole article is just a retelling of his outdated and frankly quite absurd theories. Anyone must have written something better after 1800. Please update! --93.128.37.227 (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Don't be silly - I can see only one ref to Gibbon, for a quote. The article is under-referenced, but Norman Cantor seems the most often cited. I'm sure much use was made of other more recent sources. Johnbod (talk) 22:51, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

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