Talk:Fashion Institute of Technology

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Who cares?

Does anyone really care that Nikki Hilton dropped out of FIT? Duuuhhhhh.

However, it might be worth noting that the titular character in Betsy's Wedding was a FIT student.

Never mind, I'm removing the Nikki Hilton crap myself.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 15:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Nikki Hilton currently doing anything in the fashion industry? If so, it might be relevant. 2600:1700:24D0:2CA0:C1A:3620:133C:6D89 (talk) 00:16, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Community College?

I'm curious, why is FIT listed under Wikipedia's SUNY community colleges? There seems to be a big debate as to whether it is or isn't online but there's never been enough information to back that argument up otherwise. It can't be because it offers 2 year degrees, is it? If that was the case, wouldn't that qualify many private colleges as community colleges as well? --74.101.43.43 (talk) 01:51, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

A "community college" is how SUNY lists FIT -- see this. Also, community colleges are by definition public colleges, there's no such thing as a private community college. Private junior colleges, yes. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It *IS* a community college, and it offers associates degrees. It is a SUNY community college, and the only community college in NY that offers bachelors and masters degrees.

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2021/12/27/hudson-valley-counties-want-fashion-institute-technology-declassified-community-college/9008470002/ Drsruli (talk) 04:21, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

It's more nuanced than that. The state government may classify it as a community college but others do not. IN particular, US News & World Report's rankings classify it among "National Universities" which is not an unreasonable classification given the institution's degree offerings.

I think it would be best to leave the lead section and infobox as "public college" but to add an explicit footnote that notes this unusual situation and points readers to a more detailed explanation in the body of the article. ElKevbo (talk) 04:52, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Please see my reply below, as wikipedia defines "Community College", and FIT meets that definition. Drsruli (talk) 23:27, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

@Drsruli and @ElKevbo I updated this the other day without checking the talk page, (sorry!), but I wonder what you think of the version as it is now. I considered combining "community college" with "vocational university" or "fashion school," but neither seemed to meet the mark.

I personally think community college is more correct than just public college. The college's classification can't be something one has an opinion on, imo. If people en masse think that Harvard is actually a liberal arts college rather than a research university, that's interesting, but it doesn't change the base classification. The institution has control over that element of its identity. And as of now, for better and worse, it's a community college with bachelor's and master's programs. That could change with a reclassification, but not with people not understanding the complexity. Dizzycheekchewer (talk) 17:44, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

I think your compromise is a good one - thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 22:40, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

I think SUNY lists it as a community college because it was legally organized under NYS law provisions that apply to community colleges, and they amended the law to allow the granting of bachelor's (and later master's degrees) without granting a new charter. So legally, per New York Law, it's classified as a "community college". But I think don't think this is dispositive for Wikipedia. While we are not supposed to make editorial judgments, US News seems to treat FIT as a regional university (bachelors and some masters) and I tend to agree. As for "community college" and public/private, it may be a necessary condition to be a community college to be public (as is FIT), but it is not a sufficient condition. SUNY also has 4 doctoral granting comprehensive universities--they are public too but not community colleges JustAnotherNewYorker (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

So what is the legal definition of "community college"? When most people hear that term, they probably think of a school that's obligated to provide an education to anyone in the community, provided he or she is at least 18 and can pay tuition. In other words, one doesn't really apply to a community college; one simply registers. FIT, on the other hand, is relatively selective with a 45 percent acceptance rate. 2602:30A:C045:4890:C4CC:B7EE:5E3B:3992 (talk) 04:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

To return to this [after a long hiatus, Mae Culpa], the legal definition in NYS is in NYS Education law, Title 7 Section 6301^[1] which seems to have been altered over the years to cover almost all colleges in the state. The popular definition (I suppose) is the Wikipedia page for Community College, which mentions open enrollment, but also mentions primarily providing transfer classes. While FIT was chartered as a "community college" (see ^[2])) and is listed by SUNY as a Community College (see ^[3] and select for "community college"), I don't think that a legal distinction or SUNY decision is dispositive and it should not be considered a CC by Wikipedia and I'd list it with the SUNY Senior colleges.

...

By now, wikipedia does have a stated "definition" for community colleges (if self-description is insufficient). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_colleges_in_the_United_States#Terminology_and_control

" The term "community college" has evolved to describe publicly funded two-year institutions. "

This definition applies to FIT. https://www.lohud.com/story/news/education/2021/12/27/hudson-valley-counties-want-fashion-institute-technology-declassified-community-college/9008470002/

Additionally, we list FIT as a community college here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_University_of_New_York#Community_colleges

FIT also refers to itself as a community college: https://catalog.fitnyc.edu/graduate/the-college/

https://www.facebook.com/FashionInstituteofTechnology/posts/fit-has-been-named-an-opportunity-college-by-the-carnegie-classification-of-inst/1277374770623861/

Other sources also consider it a community college: https://www.studyusa.com/en/schools/p/ny228/the-fashion-institute-of-technology-fit

https://www.communitycollegereview.com/fashion-institute-of-technology-profile

https://academicarchivist.wordpress.com/2020/09/03/fashioning-a-colleges-celebrations-and-milestones-the-fashion-institute-of-technology-turns-75/

Drsruli (talk) 05:46, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Self description is almost always insufficient: WP relies on reliable, independent sourcing. I would not describe FIT as a community college in the current, brief lead. It would be misleading to do so because it is not popularly understood as such, nor does it align with how the community college page talks about community colleges. It is not routinely discussed with other community colleges, nor listed and ranked with other community colleges (US News, Niche, EdSmart). It would be more accurate to describe it as a public college, following sourcing. However, it is, legally speaking, a community college in NYS, and organized as such by SUNY, which is a verifiable and notable fact that merits inclusion in the article and for categorization.

The lead shouldn't be based on a technical definition, but written in plain language based on reliable sourcing. So it should primarily be described as a public college, but when talking about how SUNY is organized, it should be discussed as a community college. There's no reason we can't do both. The article has the problem that the school's history and funding isn't discussed in the body, and as WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, there's nothing to turn to. If that were in the article, it would be clearer. The lead could easily be written as:

The Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) is a public college in New York City, organized as a community college in the State University of New York system. It focuses on art, business, design, mass communication, and technology connected to the fashion industry. It was founded in 1944.

—BrechtBro (talk) 21:10, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

@BrechtBro You expressed a concern (not even to me), I addressed it in good faith. That's the idea of the site. The existing version when you came to the page is one you disagree with. You are the disputer, but you are functionally alone in your view versus mine. That doesn't endow you with anything but the ability to discuss the different views and try and find consensus (or wait for others to weigh in).

We'll wait for the original conversation to proceed, but there is a deadlock in opinion, neither version is particularly more valid, ergo the existing change of "community college" stays. Myself and Drsuli ostensibly prefer one version, you and ElKevbo, who seems temporarily inactive, prefer another. Your reversion of it without people again backing the claim here in a dispute is more of a problem then my being bold and fixing a concern.

Also, on the substance, it's not a matter of opinion what class of school it is. It's a verifiable fact. If people say a new minivan ranks among the best sports cars, or that a new serialized TV show ranks among the best movies, that doesn't change what it is or classified as. It's interesting and worth noting, but doesn't change a verifiable fact. And while the lead intends to introduce people to an unfamiliar topic in a friendly way, there are often times when a claim that is true is included (and footnoted to mitigate confusion). Dizzycheekchewer (talk) 15:18, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

The WP:ONUS is on those who wish to include disputed content to establish consensus and "public college" is the long-term stable version of the article.

MOS:FIRST states that the first sentence should be written in plain language easily understandable by the non-specialist reader, "community college" invites confusion. If there's a footnote needed to explain it, it is not plain language. —BrechtBro (talk) 15:52, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

There are many, many articles, including good, reviewed articles that provide footnotes in the lead. If you have a guideline/policy saying that footnotes are verboten in the lead, feel free to supply.

The fact that it is a community college is something that three people (out of four) in this thread agree with. Among those three, two (myself and Drsuli) think it is definitionally a college and belongs in the lead, while you do not. I'd prefer more consensus, but it's what we have now. In the name of seeking further consensus, I accept your dispute-tag and hope others can provide their thoughts. Dizzycheekchewer (talk) 16:03, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

Self description is almost always insufficient: WP relies on reliable, independent sourcing. For proving notability, yes. For WP:ABOUTSELF information, though, we can use SUNY's website as a source for a subject's description of its own activities. Given that, I do think we can mention this as a community college in the lead. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

I agree that it should be mentioned. It shouldn't be presented as the most defining characteristic of the school (as in the draft compromise I've suggested), as it's not how independent sources describe it, and in this case, prose clarification that this particular public college is a community college is clearer, simple and easy, whereas describing it first as a community college, which are otherwise almost universally local, two year schools, is misleading. It would not be misleading to say "a community college" and clarify the scope in the prose rather than an efn, but that would be less concise and probably undue detail in the lead. —BrechtBro (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

Alumni

I've just inadvertently reverted Beyond My Ken's reversion of my shortening of the list of alumni here (Twinkle error, I'd meant merely to look at the previous version); I apologise for that. However, I have to ask why on earth BMK made that edit. Why is it remotely useful to have the same WP:LAUNDRY list of alumni here that is already at List of alumni of the Fashion Institute of Technology? I suggest shortening the list here to, say, ten names that people are actually likely to recognise. I propose Kors, Klein and Schumacher for such a list, the only ones that I personally have heard of. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I was unaware of the existence of the list article, so the link to it is sufficient, and, as you suggest, just a handful in the main article of the most prominent names would be good. I suggest a hidden comment (or comments) would be helpful pointing editors to the list article. My apologies. BMK (talk) 00:29, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I've now done that, BMK, to the best of my ability (including a hidden text note). Please improve if you can. I note with some interest that Marissa Webb, one of the handful mentioned by the school as notable here, does not appear to have an article on this wiki. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:31, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

BMK Justlettersandnumbers It has been a very busy week again but I am back to discuss alumni additions. While not particularly attached to adding Nina Garcia or Antonio Lopez, I would like to make the argument for a more gender and ethnically diverse alumni list. I also would like to compare the "rules" set above with what is the practice on other college wikipedia articles, with a focus on top ten fashion schools in the US and globally. 1. The Fashion Institute of Technology has a predominantly female student body, and this seems to have been the case for a while.^[4]^[5] It is also know for its diversity^[6], with just under half the students being self-identified as white. Therefore is would argue that an alumni list consisting of three white men, even if they are folks "people are actually likely to recognise" (British spelling?) is a little, well, imbalanced. Even accounting for the imbalance of fame by gender or race in the world, it might still make sense to include at least one women or ethnic minority on the list. We have a lot to choose from, and as someone who DOES know something about the history of fashion, I would be happy to create a short list for discussion. Norma Kamali, who was absolutely ground breaking in the eighties, Stephen Burrows, who broke the color barrier in the 1970s & just a few years ago had an exhibit at the NY Historical Society, Antonio Lopez (mentioned before). Which brings us around to the question of whether these should be names that people actually recognize. Because Wikipedia is both a general and specialty encyclopedia, I think there is room for listing those persons considered notable within their own professions. Indeed, I think that is the best guideline. It would certainly be the guideline used in an encyclopedia of fashion or design. 2. Many other colleges and universities have alumni listings that are quite lengthy. While I DON'T think that needs to happen here, I would like to see some consistency between fashion and design schools. Parsons School of Design (my next Wikipedia endeavor), which is generally ranked as 1st or 2nd ^[7] in the US and 4th^[8] globally has no alumni listed on its Wikipedia page, neither does 1# globally ranked^[9] Central Saint Martins. Other top schools:^[10] e.g. Pratt Institute, Kent State, SCAD, London College of Fashion, Bunka College of Fashion, all do have lists, some short and some long. So . . . there is no consistency, BUT those who do list alumni do not seem to use the average person's knowledge as a gauge for inclusion.

Therefore, I would like to persuade you to let me include one or two alumni of notability in their profession who represent the true demographic of the student body of the Fashion Institute of Technology. It doesn't have to be Nina Garcia. Librarianhelen (talk) 22:42, 21 January 2016 (UTC) Not sure how to seek consensus other than thisLibrarianhelen (talk) 17:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC) Correction: Parsons News School of Design wikipedia article has an extensive alumni list focused on their fashion design alumni. Librarianhelen (talk) 23:33, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

References

[1]
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/EDN/6301
[2]
https://www.fitnyc.edu/about/history.php
[3]
https://www.suny.edu/about/campuses/
[4]
“Fashion Institute of Technology (Four Year College) in New York, NY - Find Information about Admissions, Tuition, Majors and Campus Life at Petersons.com.” 2016. Petersons’s. Accessed January 21. http://www.petersons.com/college-search/fashion-institute-of-technology-fashion-institute-of-technology-four-year-college-description-000_10000438.aspx.
[5]
New York Times. 1946. “65 STUDENTS GET FASHION DIPLOMAS: First Commencement Held by Institute Here--Dewey and O’Dwyer Are Speakers,” June 5. http://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1946/06/05/93121558.html?pageNumber=17
[6]
“Fashion Institute of Technology (Four Year College) in New York, NY - Find Information about Admissions, Tuition, Majors and Campus Life at Petersons.com.” 2016. Petersons’s. Accessed January 21. http://www.petersons.com/college-search/fashion-institute-of-technology-fashion-institute-of-technology-four-year-college-description-000_10000438.aspx.
[7]
“The Top 20 Fashion Schools in the US: The Fashionista Ranking - Fashionista.” 2016. Accessed January 21. http://fashionista.com/2011/07/the-top-20-fashion-schools-in-the-united-states-the-fashionista-ranking.
[8]
“Global Fashion School Rankings 2015 | BoF Education | The Business of Fashion | #BoFEducation.” 2016. The Business of Fashion. Accessed January 21. http://www.businessoffashion.com/education/rankings/2015.
[9]
“Global Fashion School Rankings 2015 | BoF Education | The Business of Fashion | #BoFEducation.” 2016. The Business of Fashion. Accessed January 21. http://www.businessoffashion.com/education/rankings/2015.
[10]
“Global Fashion School Rankings 2015 | BoF Education | The Business of Fashion | #BoFEducation.” 2016. The Business of Fashion. Accessed January 21. http://www.businessoffashion.com/education/rankings/2015.

Edits Undone

Hello all. Many, but not all of my edits have been undone, and I have been asked to received group consensus on the matter.

The majority of the edits have been an effort to correct the problem too many "sources too closely associated with the subject" as we have been asked to "please help improve it by replacing them with more appropriate citations to reliable, independent, third-party sources." Others have been the correction of broken links or the replacement of broken links with third party sources. One the problems with the fitnyc.edu links is that ALL of them are broken. This is the perfect opportunity to replace these links with third party sources where possible or with corrected fitnyc source links. Some of the changes in this realm have been left alone, while others have been undone. For instance in the section on the history of the Museum at FIT, my updated sources were changed back to the broken links that existed before, while the improvements that I made to the opening lines were left alone. I am a little puzzled by these actions.

More controversial, and understandably so, would be the additions I wish to make to the list of alumni. I do understand that we don't want this to be a puff piece. Please see conversation above. Many colleges and university wikipedia entries list notable alumni - some even with photographs (see University of Missouri) while other pages weave information about alumni into the entries (see New York University). There doesn't seem to a common practice or protocol. It has been recently been suggested that alumni listed here be "a-list" names that might be known to the general public. Therefore I conceded that Antonio Lopez perhaps doesn't fit the bill and I heartily agree that Nanette Lepore should never have been listed. But I don't really understand the objection to Nina Garcia. It's not that I have particular thing for Nina Garcia, it's just that the representation of notable alumni seemed to need diversity and dimension as the Fashion Institute clearly does more than produce american male fashion designers. As a fashion journalist, editor and tv celebrity, Nina Garcia seems a good fit for the notable alumni list.

I would love feedback from BMK and others Librarianhelen (talk) 15:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers Thanks for understanding about museum source. Librarianhelen (talk) 21:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Quick apology: with this edit I carelessly and inadvertently removed a perfectly valid reference added by Librarianhelen. I'm sorry about that, and glad to see that it has been restored to the page. I've no opinion on the notability of Nina Garcia (sorry!). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:10, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Fashion Institute of Technology

Who cares?

Community College?

Alumni

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