Talk:Fourier transform
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Maybe a mistake in time shift property?
Hi, I think there is a small mistake in section 15 "Tables of important Fourier transforms" -> "Functional relationships, one-dimensional", property 102, time shifting of fourier transform. There should be a minus in the power of e: e^(-2*pi*i*...). That minus is missing in the entire row. I think I verified it on paper, but also with other sources, including the wikipedia fourier transform article itself (section 5.1.2 Translation / time shifting). I have no idea how to fix this. This is my first post on wikipedia ever. I hope I'm correct though and not wasting anyones time.
--83.130.77.27 (talk) 12:23, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, all the minus signs are there. Don't you see a minus sign in the following?
- That is what's in the 102 item, and here's the entire line:
Function Fourier transform
unitary, ordinary frequencyFourier transform
unitary, angular frequencyFourier transform
non-unitary, angular frequencyRemarks Definition 102 Shift in time domain
- Which browser are you using? Note that when you create an account and log in, you have some options to affect the appearance of text and math. - DVdm (talk) 12:55, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Correct! In latex there is a minus sign. Using chrome, just checked with another pc and it's working fine. And if I look here closely I think I can see the missing sign very faintly. So it must be something with the local browser and not display settings of wikipedia. Sorry for the trouble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OmerLauer (talk • contribs) 13:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Please sign all your talk page messages with four tildes (~~~~) — See Help:Using talk pages. Thanks.
- No problem. What happens if you go to Preferences, Appearance, Math and select MathML with SVG or PNG fallback? - DVdm (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- When switching to PNG I can see the sign as should. The problem is visible when using "MathML with SVG or PNG fallback", which of course is default. Just checked another thing: while zooming in and out, I saw the equations in correct form for all zooms above 125%, and also specificly for 90% (but not for 100%, 110% or below 80%). It seems to be some sort of a rendering issue (??) with my own browser. OmerLauer (talk) 13:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello. There is a problem with Chrome and browsers based off of Chrome such as Edge. The wizards are aware of it. As a temporary fix you can increase the zoom factor. Also, you can get the Math Anywhere extension for both Chrome and Edge that seems to take care of the problem. Or you can wait until Chrome fixes the problem. Constant314 (talk) 16:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, with the current versions of Chrome and Edge, 4 out of 6 minus signs are missing in the table above. Firefox is doing just fine. - DVdm (talk) 16:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- I should have added: please do not try to fix it by modifying the LaTeX markup. Constant314 (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Definition section: the reason for the negative sign
I have to agree with the IP editor that this is poorly written and after checking the source, I see that the source does not say what is written here. In fact, the source doesn’t give a reason, it just says that engineers prefer a certain sign convention. The source isn't even about the Fourier transform.
The reason given is nonsense. In fact, both negative and positive signs are used by different communities and there is no problem with convergence of the integral.
Since the source doesn’t give a reason, I will remove the reason. But the reason is this: it is arbitrary. It is just a choice of where you want your negative signs to appear. As an engineer, I have my preference mainly because that is the way I was taught and that is the way it appears in most of my textbooks. You may find justifications for one choice or the other, but you will not find a definitive reason the sign must be negative or must be positive. Constant314 (talk) 12:26, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
- corresponds to a vector that rotates in the positive direction (increasing vector angle = CCW) for positive frequency . Anyone who disagrees with that convention is in a lonely minority, and will have endless difficulty with the preponderance of relevant literature and Wikipedia articles. For all the others, the conclusion is obvious. The quantity is a measure of the relative amount of component in function (see Fourier_series#Definition). Therefore is the appropriate nomenclature. Similarly, the quantity is a measure of the relative amount of component in function . And therefore is the appropriate nomenclature.
- --Bob K (talk) 16:41, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
I use the same convention that you are advocating. I have no problem with using that convention. If you want to state a reason for that convention in the article you need a reliable secondary source that states that reason. No amount of WP:OR will change that. However, I do not mind dabbling in OR here on the talk page.
Let
- This is the conventional forward transform.
- This is the other convention. It is mathematically equal to the conventional reverse transform.
I hope it is obvious that
- Thus the results of these two conventions are simply conjugates of each other.
This has no physical effect because physical effects are caused by energy or power. The power of a Fourier transform is computed by multiplying the transform by its conjugate.
Again, I hope it is obvious that
So, lets look at a couple of examples. I will suppress multiplicative constants that clutter up the results.
First, consider the Fourier transform of .
- The Fourier transform under the usual convention is . It has Fourier components at both and .
- The Fourier transform under the other convention is . The result is exactly the same result.
Next, consider the Fourier transform of .
- The Fourier transform under the usual convention is . It has Fourier components at both and .
- The Fourier transform under the other convention is . It has Fourier components at both and . The result is the conjugate of the result using the usual convention.
Now let me go way off into OR la-la land to speculate why engineers prefer the usual convention. Consider the Fourier transform of cos(ωt) + sin(ωt). It is . The component at the positive frequency of is . Notice in particular that the sign of the imaginary part is negative. Engineers prefer this because lags by 45°. When an engineer plots this in Cartesian space, it is [1,-1]. The principal argument is negative. Engineers prefer that because the phase of cos(ωt) + sin(ωt) relative to cos(ωt) is negative. Mathematicians consider cos(ωt) and sin(ωt) as basis vectors and they plot cos(ωt) + sin(ωt) as [1,1]. That is all there is to it. Engineers prefer that the Fourier component of sin(ωt) should be negative at positive frequency. Constant314 (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
For real-valued the convention hardly matters, because every frequency has a positive equivalent (e.g. see Aliasing#Sampling_sinusoidal_functions). The concept of negative frequency is unnecessary... two-sided Fourier transforms are redundant.
Cutting to the chase, the convention determines whether is considered a positive or a negative frequency. The customary definition of instantaneous frequency is the derivative of instantaneous phase, which is whose derivative is
Therefore is a positive frequency. And its measurement is (which means is ).
I conclude that those who claim otherwise have a different definition of instantaneous phase or instantaneous frequency, which puts them at odds with Wikipedia's sourced articles. The burden is on them to provide contradictory sources.
--Bob K (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- But no. The burden is one those who wish to add a fact to a Wikipedia article. The burden is on them to provide a reliable source. Constant314 (talk) 04:21, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I get your point. But I disagree with your statement "But the reason is this: it is arbitrary. It is just a choice of where you want your negative signs to appear." No. It comes down to your definition of the instantaneous phase and frequency of function When you "arbitrarily" choose you are also arbitrarily rejecting the customary definitions of instantaneous phase and frequency. Therefore you need to provide sourced reasons for that whim.
--Bob K (talk) 05:10, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
I went through several of my text books. Here is what I found.
- Using the engineering convention
- Oppenheim, Alan V.; Willsky, Alan S.; Young, Ian T. (1983), Signals and Systems (1st ed.), Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0138097313
- Gregg, W. David (1977), Analog & Digital Communication, John Wiley, ISBN 0471326615
- Stein, Seymour; Jones, J. Jones (1967), Modern Communnication Principles, McGraw-Hill, page 4, equation 1-5
- Hayt, William; Kemmerly, Jack E. (1971), Engineering Circuit Analysis (2nd ed.), McGraw-Hill, ISBN 0070273820, page 535, equation 8b.
- Using the other convention
- Press, William H.; Teukolsky, Saul A.; Vetterling, William T. (2007), Numerical Recipes (3rd ed.), Cambridge University Press, ISBN 9780521880688, page 692.
- Jackson, John Davd (1999), Classical Electrodynamics (3rd ed.), John-Wiley, ISBN 047130932X, page 372, equation 8.89
- Stratton, Julius Adams (1941), Electromagnetic Theory, McGraw-Hill page 294, equation 47
- Reitz, John R.; Milford, Frederick J.; Christy, Robert W. (1993), Foundations of Electromagnetic Theory, Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0201526247, page 607, equation VI-2
Constant314 (talk) 17:28, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I can expand the upper list, if needed, but it seems to be coming down to signals and communication vs electromagnetics. Amazingly, I still have my undergrad copy of
- Plonsey, Robert; Collin, Robert E. (1961). Principles and Applications of Electromagnetic fields. New York: McGraw-Hill. ISBN 0070503400.
{{cite book}}: ISBN / Date incompatibility (help)
It is a dense 554-page book, with not a single Fourier transform formula or even Euler's formula. My take-away is that the EM applications of Fourier transform theory don't go deep enough to matter which convention they use. To quote myself (above) "For real-valued the convention hardly matters". The concept of negative frequency is not useful. So your statement:
- "But the reason is this: it is arbitrary. It is just a choice of where you want your negative signs to appear."
might be a misleading generalization based on certain limited applications of transform theory.
Anyhow, we're getting a little off track. The point is that the convention chosen for the article (which we both agree with) was not an arbitrary coin toss. It might not have any consequences for EM theory, but it does have consequences for signal theory. So I added a footnote that does not need an external citation. All it relies on is a Wikilink to our instantaneous frequency article.
--Bob K (talk) 12:30, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Bob K: Greetings. I had not responded because it looked like we were at an impasse, but I think the conversation should continue. I looked at instantaneous frequency and did not see anything there that would favor one convention for FT over the other. There is no physical requirement for one or the other. However, I will speculate. When I look at the engineers describing a simple wave traveling in the x direction, they tend to use whereas the EM guys tend to write . My interpretaion is that the signals guys are mostly interested in what is happening with respect to time at a fixed place while the EM guys are more interested in what happens with respect to space at a fixed time. Constant314 (talk) 05:04, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
That sounds about right, based on my distant memories (circa 1968) of one EM theory course.
--Bob K (talk) 11:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Language for Beginners
I think this article should be improved in some manner for the general public that is scientifically minded but not taking a full calculus class in college. I think the possibility of adding it to the Simple English Wikipedia with easier to understand language is a good idea, in addition to the process of adding explanations and writing that is not mathematically centered. Maybe including something of this sort, "The Fourier Transform helps to transform functions such as cosine and sine into different output functions that behave differently than normal trigonometric functions." ScientistBuilder (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)ScientistBuilderScientistBuilder (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
- Is this better: Fourier_analysis#(Continuous)_Fourier_transform ?
- --Bob K (talk) 12:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Use of complex sinusoids to represent real sinusoids
A quick impression is that this section could be simplified, perhaps making use of the Analytic signal concept instead of Fourier series. I'll try to give that some thought.
Furthermore, the statement "every real sinusoid consists of an equal contribution of positive and negative frequency components, which is true of all real signals" is misleading. It is a cancellation, not a contribution, analogous to something like "10 apples consists of 5 apples + 5 bananas and 5 apples - 5 bananas". (See Negative_frequency#Sinusoids)
--Bob K (talk) 12:34, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry. Thank you for pointing that out. For now I've rephrased as:
- "Hence, every real sinusoid (and real signal) can be considered to consist of a positive and negative frequency, whose imaginary components cancel but whose real components sum to form the real signal."
- And I removed that reference to that ccrma.stanford.edu page cause what I wrote is now slightly different.
- I understand you don't want a complicated discussion on complex sinusoids. I'm wondering maybe what if I move that discussion out from this article and put it in the article for either negative frequency or Sine wave. Or maybe the Sinusoid redirect page could become its own page that discusses both real and complex sinusoids. Em3rgent0rdr (talk) 02:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
I think that's on the right track. I was definitely struggling with that section... I kept coming back to the question "Does it even need to be here?" IMO, the ccrma.stanford.edu viewpoint is the easy explanation, more of an engineering convenience than a true insight. I'm all in favor of conveniences, but I'm also in favor of distinguishing them from the underlying realities.
--Bob K (talk) 11:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Pronunciation
I was hoping to see an IPA pronunciation in the first sentence of the article (but there is not one). Wiktionary has an English pronunciation for Fourier (as a surname), which might apply to Fourier transform. - excarnateSojourner (talk|contrib) 21:30, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- In English the name is often pronounced foo-ree-ei or foor-ee-ei (the last syllable rhyming with "day", and all three syllables given approximately equal stress). 2601:200:C000:1A0:BC00:5039:DB55:E9EC (talk) 22:23, 29 July 2022 (UTC)