Talk:Fred Goodwin

I think the section about his pension is starting to get out of hand. We need to focus more on the facts and less on what various people have to say. It's a big public scandal so lots of people have an opinion, and we can't usefully quote them all. Also I'm not sure if the para on Peter Cummings is useful context or a distraction which should be moved elsewhere (he doesn't seem to have his own article). Rd232 ^talk 13:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

agree about the Peter Cummings bit leaky_caldron (talk) 14:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

surely the comments made by notable people, especially those in Government, are vital in establishing/documenting the degree of unacceptability perceived in the country as a whole, in this almost unprecidented affair? As you quite rightly say, it's a public scandal and the politician's actions (or lack of) will be critical to any resolution. I recall a similar style being adopted in the Cash for Questions article. leaky_caldron (talk) 15:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess I wasn't clear: it's a matter of degree. Some comments from key people or saying important relevant things, yes. Drift towards laundry list of every politician and journalist around sticking their oar in, no. (NB I feel the rather under-sourced and mediocrely-structured Cash-for-questions affair article isn't a great example.) Rd232 ^talk 00:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

So why not start a Cummins article? He seems to be the focus of a lot of attention in the media for his high pension?Peterlewis (talk) 07:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

If Cummings is only notable for one event we should cover the event, not the person. Anyway, there's no guarantee that UKFI will find he's in the same position as Goodwin, so we must be careful not to speculate. Is there any evidence that his pension "pot" was increased massively when he left HBOS? Did Cummings choose his lending practices or were they HBOS's policy (after all, if you are "head of corporate banking", presumably your job description includes lending to corporates)? I'd exercise restraint until we have more verifiable facts to report. - Pointillist (talk) 07:54, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is about Goodwin so Cummings doesn't really belong here. If there is a general bankers pension issue then that becomes an article in it's own right doesn't it? Until it emerges that there is a wider pension subject I think that Cummings should, at best, remain as a brief mention with no further development, or be removed entirely (possibly to a Cummings article) leaky_caldron (talk) 10:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The HBOS Bad Loans section is the place to develop the lending policies side of the story. I found this report about Cummings in The Times (June 13, 2008), which says "while more cautious bankers switched off the lending hose, the HBOS corporate loans chief continued to squirt cash at people he believed in.... But the freefall in the value of listed housebuilders in the past few weeks has inevitably cast doubt on the wisdom of that approach." even though "last year his division contributed £2.3 billion to HBOS profits, more even than the personal banking side."

As for the pension side of the story, since The Times says "His pay soared to £2.6 million, overtaking his chief executive Andy Hornby." it isn't hard to imagine how he could have accumulated a c.£6m pension fund when times were good, so we must be careful not to imply anything that isn't supported by sources. - Pointillist (talk) 11:18, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

re the expunged Harriet Harman segment, it was, of all the political opinion on the subject, the most significant because it raised the possibility of the pension simply not being paid by senior government figure (as opposed to opposition MPs and ex-ministers like Prescott). She went further than the PM, it was broadcast on national TV and received considerable press coverage. It's her seniority and the directness of her quoted views on the matter that set her apart, even from the likes of Timms and Darling (who's department was responsible for letting the discretionary award through). It also created potential conflict with the PMs statements leaky_caldron (talk) 10:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Labour Deputy Leader and Party Chair Harriet Harman suggested that Goodwin should "not count" on keeping his full pension because "it is not going to happen". She described the settlement as "money for nothing", that the sum was unacceptable in "the court of public opinion," and that the government "would step in".^[1] leaky_caldron (talk) 10:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm not going to march in the streets if you put it back in :). But I feel it says more about her (trying so hard to be populist, maybe in mad attempt to position for eventual leadership challenge, as to suggest abandoning the rule of law, which isn't about to happen) than about Goodwin or his pension. As to her seniority, pff, she doesn't decide anything. Her cited positions are in the Labour Party, not the govt. Rd232 ^talk 14:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• How about:

Harriet Harman QC, the Leader of the House of Commons and former Solicitor General, suggested that Goodwin should "not count" on keeping his full pension because "it is not going to happen". She described the settlement as "money for nothing", that the sum was unacceptable in "the court of public opinion," and that the government "would step in". - Pointillist (talk) 15:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Vince Cable put it well in the Commons (here) "Now—as the Leader of the House is a former Pensions Minister and law officer and I believe a trained solicitor—she's exceptionally well placed to understand pensions law.... " - Pointillist (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Somebody keeps reverting the word "disgraced" from the summary "...is a disgraced Scottish banker...".

This is a commonly accepted way to refer to Goodwin and I am not aware of any reasonable sources that could contend this. For example, the Daily Telegraph referred to him on the front page of today's (4th March 2009) Business supplement as "the disgraced banker".

In what sense is he not "disgraced" ? It does not violate NPOV - it is simply a fact - he is "disgraced".Garygateaux (talk) 16:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been added (usually be anonymous or less experienced contributors) and removed repeatedly. Wikipedia focuses on verifiable facts. "Disgraced" may be an opinion frequently voiced (Google News gives me 35 hits for Goodwin + "disgraced banker") but it's still opinion, and to have it in the article without quotes makes it appear that Wikipedia shares that opinion. The media commentary section contains plenty of details on this widely-held opinion and the final sentence of the intro summarises that, neutrally (cf WP:NPOV). Rd232 ^talk 17:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• BTW it wouldn't work in the lead section even if you had "disgraced" in quotes, and cited e.g. Sky News 27 Feb, Mail Online 27 Feb, Sunday Mirror 1 Mar and Telegraph.co.uk 4 Mar. That sort of description isn't used in Wikipedia articles. So even though Richard Nixon, Ted Haggard, Mark Oaten, Bill Clinton and Neil Hamilton are all called "disgraced" in lots of press stories, their articles here describe their scandals but don't use the word "disgraced". - Pointillist (talk) 17:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok but in that case I suggest we retitle the Pension section "Pension Controversy" or something like that. Just saying "Pension" does not convey the issue to the casual observer.Garygateaux (talk) 16:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

agreed. Scandal is very well documented leaky_caldron (talk) 16:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

good idea - Pointillist (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I see Ironman1104 has reverted the change. I've invited him to outline his thinking here, as he's made other constructive edits to this article in the past, - Pointillist (talk) 18:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC) e.g. this diff - Pointillist (talk) 21:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

All of the requirements for a (good old) scandal are satisfied, namely "a widely publicized incident that involves allegations of wrongdoing, disgrace, or moral outrage. A scandal may be based on reality, the product of false allegations, or a mixture of both."

A simple Google search reveals numerous reference from many sensible sources . I have reinstated the heading until Ironman1104 responds leaky_caldron (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

"Pension scandal" is the correct heading because it highlights that a major concern is addressed in the article, but doesn't go beyond the facts.

• It recognises that the public is "morally outraged", at least as represented by the red masthead tabloids.
• It doesn't point too specifically at Goodwin, because Goodwin didn't control the terms and size of his pension fund: his chairman and supervisory board were responsible for selecting him, deciding his original contract and supervising his strategy and execution. When he left they approved terms for his exit with the support of whatever government agencies were involved.
• It doesn't exclude the possibility of scandalous omissions by regulatory agencies and/or HM treasury who should have reviewed Sir Fred's strategy and contract before problems emerged, and is ambiguous whether recent allegedly "synthetic" statements by Government ministers and former law officers are part of the scandal.

For all these reasons I think "Pension scandal" is the correct heading. - Pointillist (talk) 23:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

My view was that calling it a "scandal" rather prejudges the reader's view of the facts, the facts and nothing but the facts. (Incidentally, I completely agree that, in the pub, it is a scandal, disgrace, outrage ... ). But Fred got the deal, which is either legally binding (probably, Yes) or not. He gave up some of his enormous remuneration to achieve it. If it is binding, then asserting that a legally unimpugnable deal is a 'scandal' is a value judgment which needs to be more closely analysed than it currently is, or could be, in this article. I don't think it should be labelled thus just because people shout about it. Ironman1104 (talk) 10:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Ironman1104. After much reflection, and re-reading the history related in http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/RBSJohnMcFall030309.pdf, I've changed my mind. "Scandal" might be acceptable in the RBS article but in this article "Controversy"—the term Garygateaux originally proposed—is better because it avoids any value judgement. I'll change the article accordingly. - Pointillist (talk) 19:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I would argue that scandal is perfectly valid. "Controversy" is arguably VERY weasel because there is virtually no one supporting the pension award from a moral or deserving point of view (hence the news stories of the last 4 weeks). Has anyone actually said he deserves it? The only tacit support has been on the "letter of the law" contractual aspect. Remember, it doesn't need to be actual wrongdoing on Goodwin's part - just seen as widely recieved as such. To quote "A scandal is a widely publicized incident that involves allegations of wrongdoing, disgrace, or moral outrage. A scandal may be based on reality, the product of false allegations, or a mixture of both." leaky_caldron (talk) 20:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I think to say he is disgraced is pretty accurate. We're not saying if he's innocent or guilty, but I don't think you'll find many people who'd argue that the opening statement referring to him as a 'disgraced banker' is untrue. --Richardeast (talk) 18:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean that in the sense that he is "in disgrace" (i.e. vilified) even if he is innocent? - Pointillist (talk) 18:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely - someone could be classed as 'disgraced' regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty.... It's all to do with their reputation. I think Goodwin's reputation has been disgraced, even though, legally, he's probably done nothing wrong. --79.91.42.153 (talk) 10:05, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

So if Goodwin has done nothing wrong (except wreck a large bank), what did he do right? To use the word "disgrace" seems highly appropriate. Peterlewis (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

We record facts, we don't do right, wrong, shame or disgrace. We can say "x calls him disgraced" or "y said this was scandalous" we don't say either way fror ourselves. Scandal is the wrong word here, as it assumes that the pension was scandalous or someone was scandalised. (Actually, I think it is a scandal - but that's my POV and not for the article). Since "controversy" and "scandal" are proving problematic, I've put in "criticism". We are in search here for a neutral heading, so one which even some readers may see as partisan should be avoided. I doubt Sir Fred would see this as a scandal, whilst I suspect he'd agree that there has been widespread criticism and condemnation.--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see what Sir Fred's possible thoughts have to do with this - he's hardly impartial after all. My view is that both criticism and controversy are weasel words. Scandal should not be problematic since it's criteria seem fully satisified - "A scandal is a widely publicized incident that involves allegations of wrongdoing, disgrace, or moral outrage. A scandal may be based on reality, the product of false allegations, or a mixture of both."

It's widely publicised, there are clear allegations of wrongdoing (by the former RBS board), there is widespread moral outrage, he's been called a disgrace and it is based on reality (whether or not wrongdoing is eventually proved doesn't matter for it to be a scandal) leaky_caldron (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. How is "criticsm" not impartial. There has been criticism, certainly. Whether it is scandalous (a word that contains moral outrage) is clearly a matter of opinion, despite that definition you've found.--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

.....it's the Wikipedia definition and provides links to hundreds of scandals which have not been disputed leaky_caldron (talk) 21:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Ha, well, what do I say? Shite encyclopedia. I'll go with the OED: "A grossly discreditable circumstance, event, or condition of things".--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there is verifiable scandal and/or disgrace somewhere around the saga of RBS's corporate objectives, the salaries/bonuses/pensions they offered their executives, the risks the executives took and the extent (or lack) of supervision by government and shareholders. Right now, I'm just not comfortable linking the blame quite so specifically to this one individual via a section heading—it feels too much like The Charge of the Light Bridge excuse from Yes Minister (page 338). It would be a different matter if we moved some of the text to "RBS Disgraceful Strategy", "FSA Supervision Scandal" and/or "RBS Pension Moral Outrage" articles, because then we'd be covering the event rather than the person. After all, we have a Watergate scandal article, even though you won't find anything on Wikipedia saying that Richard Nixon is disgraced. - Pointillist (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

A scandal doesn't need to involve any more people and the article is about him alone - there is no article on the general subject of RBS failures in corporate governance. Scandal is how it is generally percieved - it doesn't need to be verifiable to be a scandal - just widely accepted - so check this out for coverage "National" scandal, "growing" scandal, "ongoing" scandal. Hundreds of articles. Okay, "criticsm" is accurate but wishy washy. "Controversy" is better than "criticsm" but I fail to see what is wrong with scandal given the level of media attention and public condemnationleaky_caldron (talk) 23:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

The fact is that a number of people see it as loaded here, so readers will too. "Wishy washy" is sometimes good for an encyclopedia. Keep the headings weaker and let the facts inform the reader.--Scott Mac (Doc) 23:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I was a bit uncomfortable with "scandal". "Controversy" seems less interpretable as taking a POV. Rd232 ^talk 12:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The "Other Activities" section 1.4 contains stuff not associated with his tenure as CEO of RBS. The separate "main" heading of CEO of RBS (2001 - 2008) suggests that everything else under it is a sub-section of it, rather than being a sub-section of the Biography and career section. Just the way I perceive it leaky_caldron (talk) 14:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no political momentum for 'Sir' Fred to have his knighthood removed. Because of the importance of the people making this demand I believe it warrents inclusion in the article and I am going to update accordingly. Does anyone have any input? --Richardeast (talk) 11:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Mention of the issue is already there - end of third para of 'Media commentary and criticism' section. I don't think it implies momentum (if that was your concern) but try tweaking it if you like. Rd232 ^talk 13:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Should this be mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.212.140 (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's the Daily Mail, so it's not exactly a sterling reliable source. I suggest that if these sorts of stories are widely reported across the media, than yes; if it's just tabloid froth, then no. — Matt Crypto 23:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I always apply the ten-year test. If you read this in ten years time would you consider it relevant ? I would say no, but if you want to make a wider point about "Excessive Greed associated with bankers etc etc", then maybe it could be relevant. Kbdguy (talk) 11:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

"Sir Frederick Anderson Goodwin is a Scottish banker and former chief executive of the Royal Bank of Scotland"

In a very loose sense Fred Goodwin can claim to be a banker as he worked within the bank industry. However, in the tighter sense of the word - Fred Goodwin had no Banking Qualifications and hence is not really a Banker.

I suggest that the term Banking Executive is a more suitable term. I will make this change in 24 hours time. If you have a strong opinion please add it here and we can discuss. Thanks. Kbdguy (talk) 11:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hasn't he now retired officially so thew term banker no longer applies? I suggest "retired banker" or "former banker". Peterlewis (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to have "Banking Qualifications" to be termed a "banker", and Goodwin is frequently dubbed the latter in the media. — Matt Crypto 15:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Many people have worked in a bank without qualifications. Experience and know-how are still preferred to bits of paper in many fields. He's a banker. That's his profession, and there is no indication he doesn't intend to return to it at some point.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't like to hold shares in any bank he wants to return to: after what has happened, what bank could possibly employ him? Peterlewis (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If he went on to manage SmithKlineBeecham would you refer to him as a Pharmacist ? If he went on to manage Scottish Provident would you refer to him as an Actuary ? If he went on to manage BUPA would you refer to him as a Doctor ?

You have to understand that managing a business does not make you a "professional" in the core business activities.

Actually, there are formal banking qualifications which are required for certain roles. Within the Banking Industry there are a large amount of jobs which require a formal qualification or membership of an association. For example each trading market requires you to have relevant qualifications which include written examination.

The select committee specifically asked him if he had banking qualifications to which he replied that he had not. They considered this noteworthy.

"He's a banker. That's his profession" (McDonald) No that's not true - he's a lawyer and that is his profession, as his career progressed he moved into management and eventually board level. Kbdguy (talk) 10:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Check this page for Regulatory Awards : http://www.ifslearning.ac.uk/qualifications/courses/ Kbdguy (talk) 10:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer to see "former senior banking executive". This would embrace his current status, his then role and is far more meaningful than simply saying "banker" which has no precise meaning leaky_caldron (talk) 10:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Will update in 24 hours unless more unresolved issues appear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbdguy (talk • contribs) 12:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Banker" is correct and more concise than "senior banking executive". (My dictionary's definition is, "a person who manages or owns a bank or group of banks".) — Matt Crypto 18:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

it is factually incorrect to describe him as a banker. It implies, indeed it defines, what he currently is. As far as I know his banking activities have come to an end. Unless you intend to argue "once a banker, always a banker" then the word former or retired is needed. The preceding discussion doesn't favour the use of banker, regardless of your dictionary definition I think the former description is accurate and unambiguous leaky_caldron (talk) 18:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

So George Bush is a "former politician"? Brigitte Bardot is a "former actress"?--Scott Mac (Doc) 18:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

technically they are "former". Is Bobby Charlton a footballer? leaky_caldron (talk) 19:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, Charlton is unlikely to play football again. Fred may well get another job as a banker.--Scott Mac (Doc) 19:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Two separate issues: 1) "banker": it seems clear enough that "banker" is a correct word for Goodwin's RBS job by common definition and usage in the media. 2) "Former"; he is indeed no longer currently working as a banker, but plenty of professionals go temporarily out of work and are still reasonably described as professionals regardless. My inclination, per WP:CRYSTAL, would be to leave off "former" until he either gets a job in a different area, or enough time has passed for it to be clear he has definitively left the profession. — Matt Crypto 19:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

"Fred may well get another job as a banker", lol. More chance of Charlton playing for England again!!! leaky_caldron (talk) 20:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Apparently not. I read a piece the other day (sorry I can't find it), which said that despite the witch-hunt of the hind-sighted, he was still well recognised as one of the sharpest minds in finance, and that he'd have plenty offers at least in consultancy when the fuss dies down. But, per Matt, we should avoid the crystalball.--Scott Mac (Doc) 21:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed the term "former" and replaced it with "retired". Someone removed that term. Is there now a dispute over whether he has taken early retirement ? Do I need to crawl through the newspapers for to find a reference to this ? May I humbly ask why the term "retired" needed to be removed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbdguy (talk • contribs) 21:33, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

there seems to be a desire to retain the currently factually inaccurate term "banker" as if this somehow bestows some sort of importance or distinction on the man. Lumping him in with politicians and thespians (who never retire apparently?) appears highfaluting & pretentious. A banker he may have been (debatable - see above). He isn't now. If he gets back into banking, it can be changed. Surely the article needs to reflect the current reality? leaky_caldron (talk) 09:57, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed - there seems to be some editing in-consistency.

Matt Crypto sited WP:CRYSTAL in order to justify removing the term 'former' - "Wiki is not here to predict the future", "My inclination, per WP:CRYSTAL, would be to leave off "former" until he either gets a job in a different area, or enough time has passed for it to be clear he has definitively left the profession.".

Matt Crypto then removed the term 'retired'. It's a matter of record that he has taken early retirement. Now of course - he may choose to work again in the future, but as WP:CRYSTAL suggests - we are not here to be a Crystal Ball. Therefore I would leave the term 'retired' in, until (and if) he decides to get another job.

If we are going to quote from guidelines, I would like to see those guidelines applied evenly. I would certainly expect that from an editor. Kbdguy (talk) 13:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

It may be accurate to say he "retired early from RBS" - but that does not mean he should be marked as "retired". Retired indicates an intention not to work again - taking "early retirement" from one particular post is not evidence of that intent. He's a banker who took early retirement from RBS - we don't know any more than that.--Scott Mac (Doc) 14:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually - it is entirely accurate to say that he is retired, he has taken "early retirement" and that is entirely a prima facae case that he has retired. He might choose to work again, but that is in the future - atm he is retired and you do not know anymore than that.Kbdguy (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

we know that he is not currently engaged in banking. Therefore the article intro., as it currently stands, is incorrect and therefore misleading. Surely the guidelines are not intended to have that effect? leaky_caldron (talk) 16:28, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The article does not imply he is currently employed in banking. Just as saying "Colin Luther Powell is an American statesman" says nothing about his current employment.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:33, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

he's not a banker. As far as we know he has no current gainful occupation. Yet you insist he is a banker. Sorry, it's just plain wrong. You might get away with the arguement in relation to politicians and actors but it is just nonsense to describe someone known to be retired and not currently enagaged in the profession as being a banker. How is he a banker when he holds no current post with any financial institution? leaky_caldron (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't follow your argument, I'm afraid. Someone can be unemployed and yet still be entirely reasonably described as a doctor, actor, politician, teacher, accountant, lawyer, and so on; you even seem to agree that this is so. Why then is it "nonsense" to describe Goodwin as a "banker"? — Matt Crypto 18:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Somebody who has a recognised profession, usually requiring membership in or regulation by an organisation overseeing such a profession. For example, despite being unemployed, it is correct to refer to Goodwin as a Chartered Accountant as he meets the criteria for that profession. He is not however a banker by profession. It is nonsense to describe Goodwin as a banker as he was involved with accounting and laterally management, not the operations of banking. Your argument advocates calling the chief executive of Microsoft a programmer. Regardless of what the media say, running a bank does not make you a banker any more than running a software house makes you a programmer. It is correct to describe him as a chartered accountant and former MD of RBS, and I will make the appropriate edit, as it is correct. Beganlocal (talk) 23:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You say, "running a bank does not make you a banker". Dictionary says, "banker n. One serving as an officer or owner of a bank." — Matt Crypto 09:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(1) He has taken early retirement (2) It is a matter for the record that he has retired. (3) He may choose to work again in the future, but that is not for us to say - according to WP:CRYSTAL (thankyou for pointing this out Matt) we do not predict the future, therefore (4) His status is that he is retired until he makes an announcement to the contrary or gets some kind of employment.

On the other point of whether he is a banker - he does not have the professional qualifications associated with that profession. I can go and teach some kids maths - I can then claim to be a "teacher" - after all - I am teaching them - and according to the dictionary definition I am teaching and am a teacher. But in a professional sense - I do not have teaching qualifications. Do you follow this ? Fred Goodwin does not have professional Banking Qualifications, so the description of being a banker is a "man on the street definition", but not a definition I would use for people who are stict about their terminology.

I work for a large German Investment Bank. Am I a banker ? The difference in opinion here is probably split between those who work in a professional environment and those who do not. Kbdguy (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, my last question was not about whether he should be termed a banker or not - frankly I don't care - but why an editor chose to quote a wiki guideline to make a change, and then in the same edit made a change which contradicted the very same guideline - I ofc talk about removing the term Retired.

If WP:CRYSTAL implies we cannot remove the term banking - then it also implies you do not remove the term retired - because it is prima facie that he is retired - and it is not for us to predict whether he might change his mind in the future. Kbdguy (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

News media typically describe him as a banker. This is a reasonable description, as the term isn't precisely defined (and it isn't about to be precisely defined on this talk page). Rd232 ^talk 22:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Are there still people claiming he has not retired ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.165.171 (talk) 22:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The debate regarding his retirement shows the Wikipedia projects greatest weakness. In the commercial world, there is a strong correlation between salary and ability. Having a CV with a list of world class companies who are willing to handsomely reward you for their services shows a strong pedigree. It is rather similar in the way that you can tell someones skill in football by the club they play for.

Where Wikipedia falls down is that it is possible for the least qualified to excercise judgement in which they are unqualified to judge. The scout badge mentality seems to appeal to a specific type of academic who is unskilled enough to be able to work commerically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.165.171 (talk) 19:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Strong correlation between salary and ability? This may well be true for activities such as football where performnce is readily visible to all and sundry, but I don't buy for a minute that this applies in 'closed door' environments such as prevail in some 'commercial' enterprises. If your statement were true we wouldn't have had Enron as an example. Also, the insane disparity between the salaries of the real wealth creators in society (mainly industry) and the parasites in the city/finance sector would have dissipated long ago as a result of a kind of economic 'survival of the fittest'. Since this has not happened, nor looks likely ever to, it can only be concluded that there is a strong correlation between salary and 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours'. And yes I know this is not a forum.1812ahill (talk) 20:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

You do make a valid point 1812ahill, but you cannot destroy a case by citing one or two points of reference. Indeed, cronyism is always an issue in any field of endeavour, but my point refers to a correlation which is fundamentally accepted. Wiki's weakness is that it allows it's pages to be edited by 4th division footballers and it saddens me that the strength of the project is undermined by the fact that it is the worst kind of academic that is attracted to it's "scout badge" culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.165.171 (talk) 22:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

(1) He has taken early retirement (2) It is a matter for the record that he has retired. (3) He may choose to work again in the future, but that is not for us to say - according to WP:CRYSTAL (thankyou for pointing this out Matt) we do not predict the future, therefore (4) His status is that he is retired until he makes an announcement to the contrary or gets some kind of employment.

If this action is reverted I plan to escalate this as far as recall if necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbdguy (talk • contribs) 15:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

"as far as recall"? what does that mean? And it is not a matter of record that he has retired; it is a matter of record that he has taken early retirement from RBS. OK, AFAIK it was his only banking position at the time, but "retired" implies crystalball-gazing (by implying he does not intend to work again as a banker). Since it's not clear what his intentions are, it is best to avoid implying that we know. Rd232 ^talk 16:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

what is it that you do not understand about "taking early retirement". Assuming he has retired is not "crystal-ball gazing" because he has - as a matter of fact - retired. It is completely clear that he intends to take early retirement, because he has done so. That is why it is "crystal-ball gazing" to assume he intends not to retire. Kbdguy (talk) 16:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

From Early retirement#Early retirement: "Early retirement is also a euphemistic term for accepting termination of employment before retirement age..." Which surely applies here, given the circumstances of his departure. Cf He's only 51 and unless you can provide WP:RS that either in general or in this particular case early retirement from one job, at age 51, = retirement in the sense of ceasing to search for employment, then it's WP:OR to insist you know. We don't even know for sure that he's currently not employed in the banking sector, in directorships or what have you; in the past he's held a number of posts at once. Rd232 ^talk 17:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

FYI you can check his directorships at (e.g.) creditgate.com, though this will cost £8.95 and is only accurate up to the last filing dates for companies where he is a director, which can mean information is up to 21 months out of date (so his RBS directorship/s will still be listed). The steps are:

• navigate to https://secure.creditgate.com/index.aspx
• in the Director Search section:

• enter Goodwin in the surname field
• enter Frederick in the first name field
• select the town radio button
• enter Edinburgh in the filter text field

• click the search button
• order and pay for the report

This still leaves open the question of whether a person can be called "retired" or "unemployed" while a director of a company, and whether checking a resource like this counts as original research. Good luck. - Pointillist (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

"Good luck"? I ent paying for that! And it probably is WP:OR anyway. And the definitional issues you point out remain. Which leaves us, pending WP:RS to the contrary, being conservative about making claims that seem obvious but we can't actually back up. Rd232 ^talk 22:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Precisely my point. I don't mind buying out-of-print books or spending an afternoon in the Bodleian to do real research, but this retired/unemployed stuff is a waste of everyone's time: it doesn't advance conceptual understanding, isn't encyclopedic, isn't maintainable (he's only 51) and makes the participants look like the worst sort of POV-pushers. Euuaaghhh! - Pointillist (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Quite. Rd232 ^talk 23:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

It was previously asserted that he had retired. This was a matter of public record. WP:CRYSTAL tells us that it is not for any editor to make a prediction or value judgement. Some of the "scout badge" crew decided that he had not retired, but time has shown that they were indeed wrong. I am reverting the change to show that he has retired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.169.165.171 (talk) 10:37, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

As long as someone is a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, they ARE a chartered accountant. Please stop adding he's a former CA, unless you have evidence he's resigned for the institute.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say that ? Is there a law ? Is there a statute ? Answer "No". There is evidence that he has retired. Not only is it a matter for the public record - that just about everyone in the country is aware of - I have added a citation anyway incase you haven't read newspapers.

I'm not denying he's retired his employment. However, he has not resigned his membership of the Institute of Charterd Accountants. If he has, please provide evidence.--Scott Mac (Doc) 16:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I meant that he formerly worked as a CA. I've no idea about his membership of the institute. Rd232 ^talk 16:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

One does not really "work as a CA" unless one works for an accountancy firm doing audits, which a lot of CAs did once, and don't do now. "Being a CA" is being someone who holds accreditation as a member of the institute. Oh, see Chartered Accountant for a better explanation. On can be a CA and be unemployed, retired or whatever.--Scott Mac (Doc) 17:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well he did work as a CA for Touche Ross - see the early part of the bio. That's what I was alluding to. Rd232 ^talk 18:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

While Wikipedia is not a Newspaper, it does need to reflect some reality and accuracy without obfuscation. While it may not be possible to use the term 'disgraced' according to some, it remains a point of fact that Goodwin remains a controversial figure in the world of finance during the economic meltdown (as does his successor Stephen Hester who incidentally earns what Christiano Ronaldo earnt at his first term at Real Madrid)

It would not be incorrect to use the correct term of controversial otherwise he wouldn't have appeared in so many News papers and had his Scotland property vandalised as was the RBS Building at Threadneedle Street during the 2009 G-20 London summit protests. Heliosphere (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

We do say "he was the subject of widespread public, political and media criticism". — Matt Crypto 06:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Right, so was George W Bush

I don't think history needs to to note him for simply being a CA, as the FIRST impression gives. Perhaps too many Wikipedia editors from too many PR firms are cashing in making another fortune in amplifying his philanthropic endeavours ? Who knows? But that's just my cynical tendency conspiracy theory which is probably shared by thousands, if not millions.

But seriously, he should be known for what he did that brought him to public attention Heliosphere (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed that that cause of Fred's knighthood has been edited back and forth a bit. I think the reason for the confusion is that two different Frederick Goodwins were knighted on the same day. "Our" Fred is here, while the "other" Fred is a Cook Islander here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Po8crg (talk • contribs) 08:34, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

What the hell was his knighthood for? "services to banking" - He drove RBS into the ground. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.202.157 (talk) 09:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The super-injunction also prevents reporting of Fred Goodwin's affair with a colleague, which began shortly before and continued during the credit crunch of 2008. See these links (judged not good enough sources to be in main article): Adulterous failed banker Sir Fred Goodwin obtains superinjunction « naked capitalism and this: Unbankable Story - Guy Fawkes' blog Comment added by Antioxidant Sunrise (talk • contribs) 11:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

This may come out in the wash at some stage in the future, but at the moment the sourcing fails WP:BLP so it cannot be added. This is in the Daily Mail today, with a mention for Wikipedia. The Mail is itching to publish whatever it is that Fred Goodwin has allegedly done (and could barely wait in this story). The media may attempt to use this article to break the super-injunction, so caution is needed here. --♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

"The media may attempt to use this article to break the super-injunction" - I don't think that's possible - I think they could still be violating it by reporting something revealed elsewhere, it's only an exception for reporting on parliament because of the issue of democracy (if you recall, there was briefly an issue with the Trafigura superinjunction about the lawyers even possibly attempting to gag parliament or the reporting on parliament, or something). Rd232 ^talk 23:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

This happened before with Avram Grant. We spent half of Christmas 2009 trying to keep this out of the article. The Mail cited this at the time. Perhaps we should have an office sweepstake on how long Sir Fred is going to last out on this one.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 23:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Ianmacm: FAG isn't a banker because (1) he has no banking qualifications and (2) he isn't currently working as a banker. I await your comments before reverting your reversion. Perhaps "was a prominent figure in the banking industry" would be appropriate wording. OldSpot61 (talk) 00:02, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

How many bankers have banking qualifications? I recall Yes, Minister used to joke about that... Anyway, "former banker" or some such seems fine. Rd232 ^talk 00:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Let's not be pedantic here. Who really cares about his qualifications, or the lack of them? OK, he is no longer head of RBS, but "former banker" as suggested by Rd232 looks OK.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 00:45, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy with your edit.OldSpot61 (talk) 08:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Sir Fred's stint as RBS chief appears to pass the WP:DUCK test.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps the Duck Test needs to be modified: walks like a banker, talks like a banker, gets paid like a banker but actually a useless banker! OldSpot61 (talk) 11:22, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

When you do have the balls to publish this, also note that he's now suing people in his own family -http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2011/may/24/financier-sister-in-law-injunction-breach —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.21.164.194 (talk) 12:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Cojones is not the issue here. The article contains all the known facts about Fred Goodwin that have appeared in reliable sources. Since Wikipedia is not a gossip column, it cannot report blogs, speculation etc as fact.

The Guardian story is interesting, because it uses the now familiar pussyfooting language associated with these cases. While anyone who is capable of using Google can find out about ZAM, at the moment it does not meet the notability guidelines for a separate article. ZAM could be mentioned in 2011 British super-injunction controversy‎. It would be better to start a new thread there instead.

Also, and *please* get this right, FRED GOODWIN IS NOT ZAM. Don't go spreading any rumours here, you will only make yourself look silly when they turn out to be wrong.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I wondered whether the opening of this page should really introduce him as "Sir Fred Goodwin", given that at the time of typing (January 2012) there has been talk of stripping him of his knighthood. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME, this is not an area that the article can go into. He is technically still a knight, no matter how controversial it may be.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 22:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No longer is he a knight - I have just heard on the radio that the knighthood he was given in 2004 has been stripped off him. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Is it an "annulment", or is it a "revocation"? The two terminologies have different meanings, connotations and implications, and are not interchangeable, just as a "dissolution" of a marriage (divorce) is different from a matrimonial "annulment". I believe that if his knighthood was ["annulled"], which it was, it should then be described EXACTLY as such. 87.102.74.124 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

It's "cancelled and annulled". The official announcement was made in the London Gazette on 1 Feb 2012 http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/60048/pages/1865 Technically the Knighthood wasn't "cancelled and annulled" until 1 Feb when the Letters Patent were sealed - only the _announcement_ that it _would_ be cancelled and annulled was made on 31 Jan. I will edit the article to reflect this. Bigbird3141 (talk) 11:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.185.197 (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

He is a British national, and should be described as such, not Scottish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.228 (talk) 17:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

This edit removed new material, but without an edit summary -- so we don't know what the objection was. If there's no persuasive reason to keep it out, I'll restore it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:05, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

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The section headed "Early Career" includes the following statement: "For Touche Ross he headed the worldwide liquidation of Bank of Credit and Commerce International after its collapse in July 1991."

I believe this to be incorrect. Although Goodwin was a Touche Ross partner at the time of the BCCI collapse, there is no evidence that he was ever a qualified Insolvency Practitioner, which is an absolute requirement before an individual can be appointed as either an Administrator or a Liquidator of a company under the Insolvency Act 1986. Note that it is named individuals that are appointed by the courts, not firms.

If we look at the appointment notice in the London Gazette dated 6th March 1992^[1] (page 4150) we see the list of individuals appointed as BCCI liquidators as follows: B Smouha of Touche Ross & Co., London, and G Baden and J Roden, Attorneys at Law, appointed as Joint Liquidators of BCCI SA on 3rd January 1992 by the District Court of Luxembourg; and on the same day C Morris, J P Richards, N R Lyle and S J Akers, all of Touche Ross & Co., London, were appointed as Joint Liquidators by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry under section 137 of the Insolvency Act 1986. There are other appointments covering BCCI subsidiaries in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere. There is no mention of Fred Goodwin anywhere in these appointments.

The following passage appears in the book "Shredded - Inside RBS, the Bank that Broke Britain" by Ian Fraser:

Goodwin consistently misrepresented his role in the BCCI winding-up exercise. The Edinburgh-based financier Peter de Vink recalls: 'The very first time I met Fred was at a dinner with Gerard Eadie [chairman of double-glazing firm C R Smith]. Before Fred arrived, I was told that, at a very young age, he had single-handedly led the BCCI liquidation. I expressed astonishment. When I asked Fred about it over dinner, he led us to believe that he was the sole partner in charge - and at no point did he acknowledge that he was part of a team. A few months later I met Brian Smouha at a friend's house in London. Brian was introduced as the senior Deloitte's person on the BCCI liquidation. I said to Brian, "But I thought that Fred Goodwin led that." I'll never forget his face. Without saying a word, Brian conveyed the impression he'd never heard anything so ridiculous in his life!'

On the basis of the above I think an edit is justified - but before proceeding with this I wanted to canvas opinion as there will be sources out there that support the line that Goodwin led the BCCI wind-down. I propose the following: "For Touche Ross he participated in the team that undertook the worldwide liquidation of Bank of Credit and Commerce International after its collapse in July 1991."

Thoughts?

Lord Mauleverer (talk) 20:13, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

This is quite technical and I don't claim to understand it fully. This Guardian story says "by the time he had turned 30 was a qualified accountant at Touche Ross in charge of unravelling the collapsed BCCI." The "in charge of" part is what you seem to be disputing. This Daily Record story says "Finance journalist Ian Fraser alleges that disgraced Goodwin, 55, exaggerated about his role in the liquidation of the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI)... “He did not ‘lead’ nor was he ever officially styled ‘chief operating officer’ of the worldwide liquidation of BCCI, as he claimed. "In fact he had a clerical, back-office role." So there is a difference of views over what he actually did.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:44, 31 January 2020 (UTC)