Talk:German language

From the article:

The Low Franconian dialects [...] Nevertheless, topologically these dialects are structurally and phonologically far more similar to Dutch, than to German and form both the smallest and most divergent dialect cluster within the contemporary German language area.^[1]

1. [1]

   Niebaum 2011, p. 98.

• Niebaum, Hermann (2011). "Wege und Schwerpunkte der deutschen Dialektologie" [Ways and focuses of German dialectology]. Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen [Introduction to the dialectology of German] (in German) (2nd ed.). Tübingen: Niemeyer. ISBN 978-3-11-091654-6.

As for the source:

• That's not properly cited, as it lacks the other author Jürgen Macha and as the year or edition is wrong (1st 1999, 2nd 2006, 3rd 2014 - 2011 could only be a reprint or a re-release as e-book or something)
• Quoting from the 3rd ed. as here the text is (basically) the same and as this can still be viewed online:
  Hermann Niebaum, Jürgen Macha, Einführung in die Dialektologie des Deutschen, 3rd ed., 2014, p. 104 ()): "Auf der Karte sind ebenfalls drei Hauptgebiete, erkennbar, die sich, wie Nerbonne/Siedle (2005:[...]) festellen, „im Wesentlichen mit den Verteilungen des Nieder-, Ostmittel- und Oberdeutschen (Cluster 1, 4 und 5) nach traditioneller Einteilung decken, sowie ein heterogenes Gebiet im Westen, das in etwa Ripuarisch (Cluster 3) und Niederrheinisch-Westmünderländisch (Cluster 2) entspricht.“

Thus:

• The source doesn't state that Low Franconian is the smallest and most divergent cluster. It's stating that Ripuarisch + Niederrheinisch-Westmünsterländisch form a heterogeneous area. So both the dialect(s) and the degree of comparison (superlative vs. positive) aren't sourced.
• Article stated: "within the contemporary German language area". There's a difference between "in Germany" and "in the German language area". The German language area also comprehends Austria and Switzerland. As the source only considered Germany, the wording in the article wasn't correct.

-06:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The German article on the Germanics https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanen says, that the concept can be defined historically outside the linguistic sphere. Sarcelles (talk) 19:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The very concept of Germanics is disputed by science in Germany, this German article says sourcedly. Furthermore, Germanics hardly is used as a concept for the present by Germans nowadays. Sarcelles (talk) 08:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

One problem here is that "Germanics" is simply not a term found in the English-language literature, so arguing that there's something wrong with it is entirely beside the point. --Pfold (talk) 08:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The word "Germanics" doesn't appear in the article, so why are you discussing this here? Largoplazo (talk) 09:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

12 pages link to Germanics, a redirect to German peoples.

Maybe we should discuss this on another talk page. Sarcelles (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@KoreaJAP: Luxembourgish is recognized as an independent language. You can't use its use in Luxembourg to argue that Luxembourgers are really speaking German. Furthermore, your changes have ignored that Luxembourg has three official languages. You can't claim that German is the "most widely spoken" when that is clearly Luxembourgish. Or else provide a source showing that Standard German is more widely spoken than Luxembourgish in Luxembourg.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected it. KoreaJAP (talk) 18:18, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

The recognized minority languages are not restricted geographically to individual cities or counties and thus German is a recognized minority language in entire Hungary, not just Sopron. This includes for example giving German names to babies, etc. Please correct the lead and the infobox. 2001:4C4E:24A1:FE00:7A14:F228:7166:600D (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Quote: "German is one of the major languages of the world, with nearly 80 million native speakers and over 130 million total speakers as of 2024" (source Ethnologue).

- Acc. to List of countries and territories where German is an official language: 87,875,432 + ca. 400.000 native speakers (South Tyrol + Poland) = 88,275,432 million.

(Plus at least 9,368,947 as second language (= 97,644,378); add another 8,128,752 (source: Template:German_L1_speakers_outside_Europe) = 105,773,130 million.)

- Acc. to Geographical distribution of German speakers: "It is estimated that approximately 90–95 million people speak German as a first language [...] ."

(Plus "10–25 million as second language (= 100–120 million), 75–100 million as foreign language". Because I'm getting anal-retentive here.)

So, who is solving the "Native Speaker" riddle?? Being off by about 20% for the group of native speakers alone (80 to 95 million) is truely something to behold. I know, "that's Wp for you", but anyway...

Another question: Can it be that Ethnologue is a bit biased? Maybe more recent sources could be found, as some are from the 2000's and 2010's. 185.16.53.129 (talk) 10:30, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

You’re citing other Wikipedia pages for your numbers? And how exactly do you think Ethnologue is “biased” against the total number of German speakers? Ethnologue is from 2024.—-Ermenrich (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

The real problem here, as I see it, is that the stats in the Infobox are not consistent with the stats from Ethnologue in the lede. The infobox stats are perhaps from more focussed sources, but are less recent, though the fact that they are higher does not suggest that they are for that reason not still more or less accurate. --Pfold (talk) 12:09, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

I don’t have access to the actual statistics from Ethnologue (a subscription is needed), but over 80 million people live in Germany alone, so even if we assume not all of them speak German, when you factor in just Austria and Switzerland, the OP is probably right that something is wrong with the 80 million number.—-Ermenrich (talk) 15:02, 7 August 2025 (UTC)

>You’re citing other Wikipedia pages for your numbers?

>[H]ow exactly do you think Ethnologue is “biased” against the total number of German speakers?

Some citations used here on Wp, *stating* data from 2000's to mid-2010's, are not up to date. I linked to pages in question - is okay, isn't it? You can check sources. You're prof, I'm just native speaker, not registered either.

Ethnologue was known to not update data for quite a while (Also remember the "80 mio. speakers in all" statement, used here before they enshittified the website, so for years).

I call that a bias, yes. Esp. when nobody cares to check for new sources, or maybe updated data from Ethnologue.

Yes. I mean the diverse tables and listings in article, and their resp. sources - should be congruent, is not. And when in doubt, I may trust the german Wp on things german - yours can't be, sorry. Mr. prof can check it, too.

[...] Is wrong with the 80 million number *for a long time - rected. And correct. This is the problem I'm afraid, it being way outdated imho, or biased? But then you folks here are supporting, or promoting, that bias.

This mystery is easily solvable. Note that the Ethnologue page cited for the 80 million number lists Standard German on #12. Looking at this archived page from 2019, the given figure was even lower at the time: a mere 76.1 million (70.8 million in Germany, 0.2 million in Austria, 0.3 million in Switzerland, 0.01 million in Luxembourg, etc.). Clearly, Ethnologue does not count all native speakers of any variety of German as native speakers of Standard German. For instance, in Switzerland, relatively few people are native speakers of Standard German; for most people, their native language is an Alemannic dialect. A similar picture presents itself in several countries outside Germany (chiefly its more northern regions, where traditional dialects are hardly used anymore). This explains the discrepancy: even in Germany, not every native speaker of German is also a native speaker of Standard German. Given that the article primarily deals with the standard language, citing Ethnologue's coverage of Standard German is fair. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:29, 15 March 2026 (UTC)