Talk:Germany–Israel relations

An unregistered user with an ever-changing IP address repeatedly reverts the long-standing lead from:

German–Israeli relations refers to the special relationship between Israel and Germany based on shared beliefs, Western values and a combination of historical perspectives.^[1]

to:

German–Israeli relations refers to the diplomatic relationship between Israel and Germany.

The first time he/she deleted it, the edit summary was "What on earth is all that guff?" and the user broke a named reference.

The second time he/she deleted it, the edit summary was "there is no parallel to that strange insertion in all articles dealing with inter-state relations" and the user again broke the named reference.

The third time he/she deleted it, the edit summary was "happy?" and the user again broke the named reference.

The fourth time he/she deleted it, the edit summary was "im beginning to get pissed off. Will you STOP putting that nonsense back in!!" and the user this time did not break the named reference.

Whoever you are: It is not guff, it is material supported by a reference. This material is not so terribly different from the leads of other Wikipedia articles on inter-state relations, such as Canada–United States relations, Iran–Iraq relations, and Argentina–Brazil relations.

Especially since you have an ever-changing IP address, please consider becoming a registered user.

Before it is deleted again, please state the Wikipedia policy that this violates and why. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

This is really bizarre, frankly, and unfortunately symptomatic of a broader problem on wikipedia - where the slightest reasonable edit is almost automatically reverted by all those hotheads out there. The reason why that sentence is not appropriate although it should probably be blindingly obvious, is that referring to relations between the countries as special is unsourced, unverified, POV, unwarranted, unencyclopedic and bizarre. Talking about shared beliefs and Western values is just lovely, but also completely irrelevant. There are plenty of countries that share these values without this tremendous fact being broadcast on their wikipedia page. There is nothing special or historic about the relations between the modern countries (as opposed to US and Canada or Iran and Iraq) and the only notable element to it is the holocaust thing which 'may' be mentioned in the introduction if you wish, but we certainly don't need a romantic poem in there as well.Noodleki (talk) 13:36, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

A source had been given for the wording so I den't see any problem.--Shrike (talk) 18:25, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Again, would the anonymous user at IP addresses 86.163.121.193 - 86.167.218.212 - 86.174.74.166 - 86.166.189.76 - 81.159.112.150 - 86.151.144.88 - please become a registered user? That way, you get your own talk page and it just makes everything easier. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why it is that all things negative about Israel is being deleted from the article. After all, it is easy to find via google that jewish terrorists under Begin carried out a bomb plot to murder Chancellor Adenauer (1 dead). Instead, the article states that jews deeply mistrusts Germans when it fact, likewise Germans heavily mistrusts many jews like Netanyahu. What is encyclopedic on this article which smears Germany but is keeping quiet on the crimes of Israel? Is it not enough to keep smearing Germans in the hebrew version of this article? G-I relations do not amount to much, and its hardly going to change much in the future, unless the jews will compensate the arabs, like they got compensated by today's germans, who were never Nazis. 91.60.163.227 (talk) 16:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

If you have a verifiable, reliable source to support your position, then you can absolutely add it, as long as you cite the source. Please familiarize yourself with the WP:NOR policy. —Josh3580_talk/hist 16:55, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

well, then where is the verifiable, reliable source for the 6 million figure early in the article? As far as I read, 6 million dead is just one of many competing estimates, all of which are very hard to "verify", if at all. At least tell us: What is the margin of error with the 6 million dead figure and how to verify that margin? 91.60.163.227 (talk) 17:04, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

You may feel free to add the {{cn}} template to any unsourced facts that you find dubious. That at least signals the fact that it is unreferenced. But again, original research is not a valid source to change things that you simply disagree with.--Josh3580_talk/hist 17:09, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The figure "6 million" is the "most commonly cited" (see the article for the Holocaust). The sources on that page (all with proper references to books, websites, encyclopedias, etc) provide a wide-ranging spectrum for the number of murdered Jews (i.e. "4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953)," "5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky"). Any claims you make in an article should be similarly supported by external sources. —Mono·nomic 17:16, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

well I thought you lot would keep the 6 million statement in there albeit unsourced, but anything true and negative on Israel gets deleted. You also cannot give a margin of error on the 6 million figure. You feel it is enough that "6 mill." is being quoted over and over again - even though number accuracy comes through research and not by repetitive printing. Quoting the 6 mill. figure does mot make the number more true by even one iota. So much for encyclopedic standards when it comes to the topic of Israel. business as usual. See, this is why G-I relations are in the toilet. 91.60.163.227 (talk) 17:50, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

wow! now Josh said himself that wikipedia is not a reliable source, implying that the 6 million dead jew number in the wikipedia article is unreliable. 91.60.163.227 (talk) 18:20, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

It is not reliable for citations. The fact that your or anyone else can make changes here at a whim illustrates this fact perfectly. Once again, please review WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. Are you interested in contributing, or are you trolling? —Josh3580_talk/hist 18:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

how can you omit the jewish terrorist bomb attack on sitting Chancellor Adenauer by Menachem Begin in an article on G-I relations? It's like writing on USA-Afghanistan relations and not mentioning the 9/11 WTC attacks by a bunch of Saudi nationals! what a joke.91.60.163.227 (talk) 18:43, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

my criticism about the "shared value" wording still applies. Beyond trivial values that any man shares, there is a sharp conflict between the German and Israeli value system. Israelis believe in death penalty, in using force as a means of politics (as is obvious in the occupation of Palestine and destruction of arab homes to put jews in those homes). Germany does not share those values at all with the jews. The phraseology was copied 1:1 from a jewish source which not at all explains which values are specifically referred to and why. It therefore is a 100% worthless citation. A source should give additional info which is utterly lacking from the British/Israeli source, contradicting the statement below by the OP.

It should be obvious by now that the article on German-Israeli relations are 100% written by Israelis who seemingly want to define what those relations look like instead of representing how they really are. It probably is even worse in the hebrew version. 91.60.182.102 (talk) 20:42, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

91.60.168.227 is making changes based on his opinion. In this edit, the user has added the {{cn}} tag to facts that are clearly covered in the cited reference. I reverted it, but realized I was pushing WP:3rr, so I undid my own reversion. Would other editors please review this? —Josh3580_talk/hist 18:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that those {{cn}} tags were pretty unnecessary. While I don't think 91.60.163.227's edits count as vandalism per se, if it continues he/she should be reported at WP:AN/I. This is not just simple vandalism and the user shows no intention of cooperating. (Full disclosure: I've also been involved with reverting this IP's edits earlier today.) —Mono·nomic 18:30, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

that is clearly wrong. The article was obviously biased / POV in that it mentioned jews mistrusting Germans and not clearly acknowledging that likewise Germans mistrust jews. That is not an opinion, it just is the truth. 91.60.163.227 (talk) 18:32, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

rather the admins here show no intention of cooperating in the effort to make clear to the reader of the wp article how accurate or reliable the 6 mill. figure - among other things - really is. Instead they cooperate to produce a worthless zionist style article unrepresentative of the "G-I relations", i.e. as the common man sees it. 91.60.163.227 (talk) 18:40, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Josh, I'm starting a thread on WP:AN/I. —Mono·nomic 18:43, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Mono·nomic, thank you for your assistance, and for starting the WP:AN/I discussion. As for your earlier comment, you are quite correct that it's not simple vandalism. The user obviously believes he/she is correct, but isn't familiar with how Wikipedia's policies work. I don't believe that the user intends to edit with bad faith, they are just passionate about what they see as non-NPOV. As for the vandalism warning, I actually selected the warning for "Failing to cite a reliable source, and Huggle substituted the vandalism verbiage on the user's talk page, based on the number of warnings he/she has already received. I have faith in the Consensus model, and am confident this issue will eventually be solved by the community.—Josh3580_talk/hist 18:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents § Edits by 91.60.163.227

 – —Mono·nomic 18:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

It would be interesting to note whether this sum is already adjusted for inflation. The German side source link is dead while the English source sounds like it was co-authored by AIPAC. Given that Afghani victims of German war crimes in Afghanistan 2012+ receive next to nothing - i.e. the same sum the Americans pay for their war crimes in Afganistan and Yemen - one has to question the principles of why Israel receives so much cash but nobody else does. It might also be interesing to note that Israel turned down the offer of East Germany to pay compensation - after the Jewish Claims Conf. went after them - on the grounds it was so ridiculously little money. After all I concur that German-Israeli relations are in the toilet. If only 8% of Germans view Israel favourably there is either rampant (bona fide - ) anti-semitism or indeed Israel commits crime on an ever grander scale. Overall, the article sounds like diplomatic gibberish and does not take into account the huge level of distrust of Germans against Israeli jews and their politicians. On top of that, it is a typical zionist misrepresentation of historical truth to merely point to the dilemma of Israel and "Germany offering compensation" when in fact ever since June of 1945 jews began hounding the German government for money. Also note how Jewish Claims Conf. blackmailed the Swiss banks for money. Read Finkelstein for details. 91.60.187.80 (talk) 07:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

it is pretty obvious, that the Israeli authors of the article conducted some thinly veiled zionist cherry picking. Quote from the same U.S. source on GI-rel.:

"The decades following the 1965 establishment of diplomatic relations were marked largely by a German desire to be seen as a neutral actor in the Middle East, providing balanced, rather than special support to Israel. Simultaneously, and away from the public eye, successive German leaders sought to fulfill a greater moral commitment to Israel, as had been initiated in Adenauer’s policies. Publicly, however, leaders tended to speak increasingly of German neutrality and, beginning in the 1970s, avoided pressure to take sides in conflicts involving Israel by advocating common European Economic Community (EEC) positions."

So clearly, the actual Germans who had to pay to Israel never really supported the concept, else the German politicians would not have to act in secrecy, uttering contradicting statements to their actual deeds for public consumption. The wp article purposefully omits this historical truth. In a nutshell: Unless justice is evenly applied to Palestinian victims and other victims of state crime the same way as to jews, the whole matter stinks. 91.60.187.80 (talk) 08:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

28+ jews went to jail when FBI investigated the 1993 - 2013 Holocaust compensation fraud scheme. Art. 2 funds director Semen Domnitser of JCC had been leading a group of criminals who defrauded the German taxpayer by millions of Euros. Next to none of that money was paid back to Germany. Contrary to his earlier claims, one of American Jewry’s most prominent leaders, Julius Berman, was warned about a serious Holocaust compensation scam more than eight years before the fraud became public. ^[1] JCC head Lauer called for non-jewish supervision of JCC dealings with German taxpayer's money. Berman’s separate investigation, which followed, also yielded no results. This allowed the fraud to continue until November 2009. In the wake of this jewish crime, German-Israeli relations came to a new low. 91.60.169.118 (talk) 12:23, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Domnitser was an American living in Brooklyn, New York; and the scam appears to have been organized by the Russian Mafia. Israel had nothing to do with it; which renders specious claims of influencing German-Israeli relations. But since I'm replying to an anonymous IP who bandies claims of "jewish crime", I rather doubt I'm dealing with someone amenable to reason. (And this isn't the only instance of Russian Mafia activities being passed off as horrible joocrime by myriad holocaust-denial/anti-Israeli propaganda mills polluting the internet.)--Froglich (talk) 09:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Germany-to-offer-consular-assistance-in-states-without-Israeli-embassies-342177

"Germany is to offer Israeli citizens consular assistance in states such as Indonesia or Malaysia where Israel has no official diplomatic representation, under a new deal to be signed by Angela Merkel when she visits Jerusalem next week.

Israel's ambassador to Germany, Yakov Hadas-Handelsman, said the offer was "a special message" from Germany and underscored the importance of relations between the two countries.

Chancellor Merkel travels to Jerusalem on Monday with her cabinet for consultations between the two governments.

Germany is often at pains to stress the responsibility it feels for the security of the Jewish state because of the Holocaust - the Nazis' slaughter of 6 million Jews in World War II. Israel lacks diplomatic relations with some Muslim states."

109.192.146.247 (talk) 18:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

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In August 2020, Manchester University Press published a new book on the relationship between both East and West Germany and Israel: Israelpolitik: German–Israeli relations, 1949–69 by Lorena De Vita, which may be a useful source for this article. I must declare a conflict of interest, as I proofread the manuscript before publication. JezGrove (talk) 12:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)