Talk:Harold B. Lee Library

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Harold B. Lee Library was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 1, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
May 20, 2025	Good article reassessment	Delisted

Current status: Delisted good article

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The Wikimedia Foundation's Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see WP:COIRESPONSE.

Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk · contribs) has been paid by Brigham Young University. Their editing has included contributions to this article.
Amgisseman(BYU) (talk · contribs) has been paid by Brigham Young University. Their editing has included contributions to this article.

On 23 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to BYU Library. The result of the discussion was not moved.

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Archives

COI tag (September 2024)

75% of content was added by an employee from the library. Since the COI disclose nothing was done here. The scarcity of non-mormon sources puts N in question. Ixocactus (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, the tag should remain until it has been effectively rewritten by independent parties. I think in terms of general notability it is notable, there is definitely enough in the secular press and academia to get us there but I agree that the current article is unbalanced in its sourcing and puts too much of an emphasis on primary/LDS walled garden sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:27, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

For context I do not consider the current SPA IPs to be independent parties. They seem clearly related to the topic and here to promote it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Harold B. Lee Library

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:45, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Article has prose issues, particularly the active templates. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:33, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Improvements are ongoing at Talk:Harold B. Lee Library#Addressing "sources too closely associated with the subject". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:00, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't call those improvements just yet... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:05, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: I see that you are working on the article and adding templates. What's your opinion on the status of this article? Should this GAR be kept open for additional improvements? Z1720 (talk) 22:32, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Delist work seems to have stalled, and I think the article is underdeveloped with little information about the building's architecture. I also do not think the orange banners at the top of the page have been resolved. Z1720 (talk) 18:55, 19 May 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead changes

IP these lead changes feel WP:PROMO to me. Can you see why that would be? Beyond that its unsourced which would be ok if it didn't have a lot of stuff which wasn't in the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:32, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello. Thank you for engaging on talk. My breakdown of your concerns below:

Reworded to "The library traces its roots to the late 19th century and has been renamed, relocated, and expanded various times to accommodate the growth of its collection." - This was to better summarize (more succinctly) what is covered in detail in the body, per WP:LEAD. I don't see any issue here.

Added "It took on its current name in 1973 in honor of Harold B. Lee, the 11th president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." - This is a fact and key context about the library's name. However, I failed to make sure this was covered sufficiently in the body of the article and I will rectify shortly.

Added "The library is a Congressionally designated depository for U.S. Government documents." - This is covered in the body of the article in the Collections section along with a supporting reliable citation. (See, "...and serves as a designated depository of government documents.[38]" I don't see any issue here.

Reworded "The library has 6 floors, with 98 miles of shelving, more than 6 million items, and a seating capacity of 4,600 people. It serves over 10,000 patrons each day." - This was on the page previously but lacked a supporting citation; plus it's not spelled out in the body. I will rectify shortly.

"In 2004, The Princeton Review ranked the HBLL as the No. 1 "Great College Library"." - This is a fact and was added with a supporting reliable citation to the pertinent section Awards and Recognition. Rankings are pretty standard facts included in articles across ENWP. I don't see any issue here.

Please let me know if any further concerns. Thank you. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:351B:D713:4663:BCCF (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't feel like you addressed my concerns about promotional content at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:24, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not a mindreader. If you have concerns, you have to explain them on talk. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:351B:D713:4663:BCCF (talk) 19:27, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

The overall effect seems to be overly promotional, it has a salesmanlike tone not an encyclopedic one. It looks like you're highlighting the best attributes as you see them. I should also be clear that it wasn't great to begin with. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:30, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I've now rectified the issues I pointed out above. I've also taken further actions to try to resolve other potential issues with tone and promotionalism. The article looks NPOV to me now. If you see more issues, please point them out here; otherwise, I move to remove the promotional tag now. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:351B:D713:4663:BCCF (talk) 20:53, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

There is no promotional tag on the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant the Template:Paid contributions tag. Any more NPOV issues preventing that from being removed? 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC8E:A863:84A7:EE8D (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Wrong section still, thats above at COI tag (September 2024). Long story short that template isn't going anywhere though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

No story necessary. Tags are meant to help improve pages, and once they've been improved, the tags should be removed. With regards to the Paid contributions tag, the standard is to remove any POV as a fix, which I've attempted to do in my edits. If there are no more POV issues, then the tag should be removed. Do you see any more possible instances of POV? 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC8E:A863:84A7:EE8D (talk) 23:38, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

The biggest NPOV issue appears to be a general lack of negative information, it still reads like an advertisemnt put together by employees of the school. Also IP are you the same person as the other IPs? I'm having a hard time keeping up with which IPs are yours... Can you list all of the addresses you've edited Harold B. Lee Library and Brigham Young University with? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:50, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

WP:NPOV states, "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Is there any "negative information" you're aware of that is not already covered in the article? I don't think the information about "rated R movies" and "sexual content" currently in the article is positive. Beyond that, I've tried searching, and I can't find anything else negative. The burden is on you to find it. Otherwise, the tag is no longer needed. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC8E:A863:84A7:EE8D (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes and we seems to have an over reliance on sources connected to the Library, primarily added by editors connected to the library. In my opinion until we have primarily independent sources added by editors not connected to the library the tag stays. Why are you so interested in removing it? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm trying to remove the tags because I care about ENWP. Unnecessary tags are distracting to readers and diminish the integrity of the encyclopedia when they aren't warranted. I'm tackling the tags on this article one at a time. Your comments are about the Sources tag, which I'll work to address later. Right now I'm asking about the Promotions tag. If you think more negative content is needed, you need to provide it, because I've searched and can't find anything else negative. If not, the tag needs to be removed. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC8E:A863:84A7:EE8D (talk) 01:27, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

The two tags are related. You can't solve the COI POV issue without addressing the excessive reliance on non-independent sources... And again there is no Promotions tag on this page, there is such a tag and its not used here. And again... That discussion is a seperate section, "COI tag (September 2024)" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:37, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

The tag is literally called Template:Paid contributions. That's the one I've been working to resolve and remove first. But I suppose you've at least confirmed I've resolved the immediate issues at hand, so if you insistent we wait to remove everything all at once, then so be it. But I don't think you're being reasonable nor helpful. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC35:A8C9:CDF:B7A0 (talk) 05:10, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes its called Paid contributions... Not Promotions... Template:Promotional is an entirely different tag.. You have not resolved the immediate issue at hand, you have failed to get consenus for your changes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:49, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

For context if you (big you assuming you're all those IPs) don't have a COI then we're still at 78% COI authorship. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:16, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

You continue to violate WP:ASG and accuse me of COI without any evidence, and I've warned you once (diff) for being disruptive. Yesterday was my first time editing this article, and per WP:ACCOUNT, people "are not required to create an account in order to read, edit, or contribute to Wikipedia." 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC8E:A863:84A7:EE8D (talk) 01:34, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

That is assuming that you don't have a COI, you can't use IP editing to make it appear as if multiple editors are making edits... Thats why its common for IPs to identify their different accounts when participating in a discussion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:37, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

My IPs are assigned dynamically. There's no ill intent, nor have I been exhibiting any WP:SOCK behaviors in anyway. Again, accounts are not required, so unless you observe problematic editing, you need to ASG. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC35:A8C9:CDF:B7A0 (talk) 05:13, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Your contributions to this page have been problematic, thats why they were reverted and you're now having to get consensus for them on the talk page. You have so far failed to get consensus for any of your changes, I have yet to observe non-problematic editing from this account. This account is relentless in its promotion of Harold B. Lee Library and BYU in general (are those edits you made about faculty happiness not promotional?). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:48, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I have no idea what edits on "faculty happiness" you're talking about. Perhaps you're misattributing another editors contributions to me? I don't see anything currently in the article about faculty happiness at all, so again, if you have a specific concern on content, then raise it. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:BD9D:E31D:E983:1B00 (talk) 16:31, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

You have repeatedly refused to provide the IPs you've edited from so I am forced to asume that all 2600 spectrum IPs are you. My specific concern about content is that it amounts to inappropriate and undue promotion of the subject. If we can't make a non-promotional article we can't have an article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:12, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Addressing "sources too closely associated with the subject"

Content without independent sources

George Q. Cannon and Reed Smoot helped to acquire documents from the U.S. Department of the Interior and congressional documents.^[1]^: 15 A fire in 1884 destroyed at least forty volumes of the collection.^[1]^: 15 Students rarely checked out books in the early 1900s, generally studying books in the library instead.^[1]^: 30 The Dewey Decimal Classification system was introduced to the library in 1908.^[1]^: 32

English professor Alice Louise Reynolds helped raise funds to purchase over 1,000 books for the library. She was the faculty chair of a committee to establish the library from 1906 to 1925.^[2] The library contained 29,592 volumes by 1923—almost half of them donated—and students had to stand in the library for lack of study space^[1] Reynolds' fan club donated over 10,000 volumes in the 1930s.^[3] The HBLL instituted a summer program to certify students as school librarians in 1938, later offering the program during the school year. A class on bookbinding was taught during the 1940s.^[1]^: 62 By 1946, the library contained 138,500 volumes of books.^[1]^: 47

In the Grant Library, reference books were placed on shelves surrounding the study area, with the rest of the library's holdings on shelves in the book room. Students would find books they wanted in the catalog, and library pages would retrieve them.^[1]^: 10, 56

The library increased the volume of acquisitions during the 1930s and 1940s, and gifts of books were indiscriminately accepted.^[1]^: 108 This policy changed in 1958, when gifts became subject to a consultation with the Director of Libraries,^[1]^: 117

BYU commissioned Lorenzo Snow Young to make the plans for addition.^[4]

Through a keyword search, patrons could use the system to search bibliographic resources of articles and recent books from ProQuest Dialog and Orbit II.^[5] The library adopted 3M Tattle-Tape in 1975 to detect if patrons were removing books from the library that had not been checked out.^[6] The library renamed their NOTIS cataloging system in 1984 to the Brigham Young University Information Network (BYLINE), and ran it on a mainframe computer located in the James E. Talmage Building.^[7]

Mary Elizabeth Downey taught a six-week class on the use of libraries.^[1]^: 35

The closure occurred after the administration announced a renewed focus on undergraduate studies.^[8]

The BYU School of Library and Information Science was established in 1966 and re-accredited in 1978. It had about 50 graduates a year.^[9] The School of Library and Information Science was closed in 1993, despite the program being in high demand.^[8] The HBLL was again expanded and remodeled in the mid– and late–1990s using donated funds,^[10] adding 234,000 square feet (21,700 m²),^[11] technology classrooms, an auditorium, and a digitization center.^[12] After the expansion, parts of the old library were remodeled, and the south entrance was closed.^[12] A new south entrance was opened in 2015.^[13] The library horror and science fiction collections began being re-catalogued in 1995 from the Dewey Decimal Classification system to a modified Library of Congress Classification. The academic collections had been cataloged in the library of Congress system at least since the 1970s.^[14]^[15] A word processing center in the library made 25 computers available to students at the rate of $1 per hour in 1996.^[16] In 1997, the library switched from using the DOS-based BYLINE to the Windows-based Horizon Automated Library Systems. The Horizon system allowed users to access online catalogs from other libraries, and used a client-server model.^[17]

The library contained 200 computers but only a portion of them had internet access in 1997.^[18]^[19] The library launched an online library catalog in 1998 after integrating the search system,^[19] providing online renewals and extending undergraduate checkout times.^[20] An electronic reserve system with an additional server was added in 1999.^[21] The library added wireless internet access points to its study spaces in 2003.^[22] From 2001 to 2011, the Interlibrary Loan program processed 500,000 requests.^[23]

Single-user study rooms were added in 2017, and construction started on a family-friendly study room.^[24] The juvenile literature department opened its Lloyd Alexander Collection in January 2010, featuring items from the author's home office for students and researchers to access.^[25]

The library's special collections began in 1957 with 1000 books and 50 manuscript collections. A special vault and cold storage facility were built in 2000^[26] and the collection was formally named the L. Tom Perry Special Collections Library.^[27] The collection at the time contained over 8000 manuscript collections, 500,000 photographs, and 280,000 books.^[27] Notable items from the collection include a 1967 Bible illustrated by Salvador Dalí, a 13th-century Vulgate, a first edition Book of Mormon, and the papers of Cecil B. DeMille and Helen Foster Snow.^[28]

The HBLL houses collections in many foreign languages. The collection includes a Welsh library originally sponsored in 1951 by the National Gymanfa Association of the United States and Canada. The Icelandic Library Association of Spanish Fork donated their collection of Icelandic books in 1951.^[1]^: 75

Starting in 2004, R-rated movies were placed in the Faculty Use collection.^[29] The Romance section includes a guide with ratings for the amount of sexual content in the books, and novels with explicit sexual material are not included in the collection.^[30]

[1]
Knight, Hattie (1976). Brigham Young University Library Centennial History 1875-1975. Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University.
[2]
"Alice Louise Reynolds". Brigham Young Academy High School Class of 1890. Brigham Young High School Alumni. Retrieved 2009-12-07.
[3]
McClellan, Jeff (1999). "A Lingering Influence: Top 10 BYU Professors of the 20th Century". BYU Magazine. Retrieved 29 February 2016.
[4]
Finding aid authors: David J. Whittaker (1984). "Register of the S. Lyman Tyler Collection". Prepared for the L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Provo, UT.
[5]
"'Y' Library Service Speeds Research". The Daily Herald. 22 December 1974. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[6]
"Electronic Detection Device on the Job at Lee Library". The Daily Herald. 6 January 1975. p. 3. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[7]
Durlan, Carmen (14 May 1996). "Finding information easy on BYLINE". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[8]
Patterson, Victoria (8 July 1993). "BYU Closing School for Librarians". The Universe. p. 1. found in O'Connell, Cali. Harold B. Lee Library newsclippings collection, ID: UA 1066. Provo, UT: L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Brigham Young University.
[9]
"Library Science Master's Degree Accredited at 'Y'". The Daily Herald. 22 August 1976. p. 4. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[10]
Lester, Jenni. "New library will have more to offer students". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[11]
"GROUNDBREAKING FRIDAY FOR BYU LIBRARY ADDITION". DeseretNews.com. 14 September 1996. Archived from the original on November 24, 2018. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[12]
Heap, Holly (10 August 1999). "Library opens new addition". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[13]
Robinson, Izsie. "South library entrance to come Fall 2015 – The Daily Universe". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[14]
Thompson, Marissa (27 June 1995). "Library begins cataloging, prepares for construction". The Universe. found in O'Connell, Cali. Harold B. Lee Library newsclippings collection, ID: UA 1066. Provo, UT: L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Brigham Young University.
[15]
"4.7 Classification of Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror | Cataloging & Metadata | BYU Library". Cataloging & Metadata. Retrieved 2022-08-16.
[16]
Sanche, Ed (26 January 1996). "Upgraded Word Center now in library". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[17]
Durlan, Carmen (15 May 1996). "No more BYLINE in Lee Library's "Horizon". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[18]
Williams, Carrie (17 June 1997). "Remodeled library will have modern Internet reso". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[19]
Robertson, Melissa (4 September 1997). "BYU library now online". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[20]
McKim, Katie (31 August 1998). "BYU library offers new online features". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[21]
Smurthwaite, Emily. "Library catalog looking for better service". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[22]
Ashby, Angela (28 October 2003). "Wireless Internet connections now available in library hubs – The Daily Universe". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[23]
May, Kevin (25 October 2011). "Interlibrary Loan hits 500,000th request – The Daily Universe". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[24]
Ashby-Faulkner, Maurissa (20 February 2017). "2017 brings big improvements to Lee Library – The Daily Universe". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[25]
"The Harold B. Lee Library to Celebrate the Opening of the Lloyd Alexander Collection". Harold B. Lee Library. 2009-12-19. Retrieved 2015-01-25.
[26]
Coxey, Michelle; Brinkerhoff, Allison (11 March 1999). "Library annex worth the wait for BYU". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[27]
Thornock, Janeal. "Library named for Elder Perry". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 12 June 2017.
[28]
McClellan, Jeff (2001-06-01). "Collected Memory". BYU Magazine. Retrieved 2008-05-15.
[29]
Forsyth, Jessica. "R-rated movies from Harold B. Lee Library under tighter wrap – The Daily Universe". The Daily Universe. Retrieved 8 June 2017.
[30]
Walch, Tad (5 October 2004). "Romance novels at BYU 'tame'". Deseret News. Archived from the original on 23 September 2018. Retrieved 8 June 2017.

In the drop-down above is content I have boldly removed that does not have support from an independent source. Please feel free to integrate such content back into the article with a reliable source. The article now has zero citations from BYU or LDS sources, so I believe the concerns flagged by the editing tags have now been fully addressed, and I propose the editing tags now be removed. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:CC35:A8C9:CDF:B7A0 (talk) 06:50, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

The Daily Herald appears to be BYU related. I also think you're missing the point... You only seem to be interested in having those editing tags removed and you're not actually improving the article. That is bizarre, I've never come across that sort of single minded focus on removing an unsavory tag from a good faith editor. AGF is not a suicide pact and your obsession with the editing tags is leading you to make disruptive edits. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Daily Herald (Utah) is not BYU-related. I likewise don't understand your stance. Like I said before, article tags are not permanent markers of past maleficence but as a means to spur improvement, and once they have been resolved, they should be removed. I'm not trying to erase history -- the past maleficence you've alluded to and I've since become aware of is documented forever on this talk page and in its archives. It seems every time I make an edit based on enwp policy, you have no defense other than to say that you want to maintain the status quo. I'll wait a few days to see if you or any other editors have any further valid concerns as they relate to the two improvement tags currently on the article; and if not, then they should be removed. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:BD9D:E31D:E983:1B00 (talk) 16:18, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

It still reads as an advertisement, maybe Ixocactus is right... If this is the best we can do it shouldn't be a stand alone article. IMO the entire second paragraph of the lead is promotional and there are promotional elements to the first like "in honor" rather than something neutral like "named after." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Agree with "in honor of" bit, fixed. Regarding the rest of the paragraph, the rest are just facts about circulation, building capacity, utilization, and different rooms within the library, so don't see anything else of concern. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 04:50, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

All of that is of concern when its in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:20, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Also removed a few potential weasel words. Thank you. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 04:51, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

I would say that the cherrypicking of a rating from 2004 is questionable... And the presentation is misleading because it suggests that the opinion is the Princeton Review's opinion when its actually "Based on student ratings of their library facilities." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Another editor removed it, so I'll take that as consensus and move on. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 04:57, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

The Library of Congress bit seems undue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:13, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't actually have a problem with using it, but I wouldn't call Circulation Policies in Major Academic Libraries unrelated to BYU or the Harold B. Lee Library. That content also seems undue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:16, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Agree, that one's not completely unrelated since authors have BYU affiliation, but since it's published in a peer-reviewed journal, I'd say that a RS; plus, the text it's supporting has another RS to lean on, so I think it passes muster. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:00, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Not just BYU affiliations, they all appear to be BYU staff (not faculty). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:19, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Librarytechnology.org/Library.org isn't a WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:17, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I've removed, thanks 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:05, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Sirsi Dynix isn't an appropriate source in this context. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:18, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

SirsiDynix is a reputable, independent org focused on library science, so I don't see any issue here. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:08, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

No it isn't... At least the linked company isn't. Nothing there suggests that they are a "reputable, independent org focused on library science" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

SirsisDynix is a "company which produces integrated library system (ILS) software and associated services for libraries." It's not owned or affiliated with BYU/LDS, and it's in the library industry. What's not reliable about them as a source? 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:797D:6F7D:BC1C:D163 (talk) 01:06, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

They don't appear to be reputable, independent, or an org focused on library science... They appear to be a non-reputable and non-independent (BYU appears to be a customer of theirs) private company focused on making money. If you disagree the burden is on you to demonstrate reliability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:23, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

The American Library Association award seems undue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:19, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I see your point, removed 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:10, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Students Studying Students:An Assessment of using Undergraduate Student Researchers in an Ethnographic Study of Library Use doesn't appear to be independent of the Library. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes authored by BYU affiliates but in an independent, refereed research journal, so I think this passes muster. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:13, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

If the authors aren't independent but the publisher is then the source is not independent of the subject... All of the pieces in the chain need to be independent for it to count as independent. This is the sort of thing that makes me think that you do not have signficant experience on wiki. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

topmastersineducation.com does not appear to be a reliable source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:23, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Noted, removed 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 06:01, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

The link to the americanviolasociety.org source is broken. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Link fixed, thanks 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 05:36, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

The given American Harp Society source is weak. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:25, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't see any issue here, but I've added an additional source for extra support. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 06:17, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

Has it gotten any independent coverage? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:14, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

The given law.lclark.edu source does not support the given text. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:27, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

I've added two more sources to provide full and/or redundant support for the info. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 06:24, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

The law.lclark.edu source doesn't mention the Harold B. Lee Library, it should just be removed. Thank you for adding sourcing. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:33, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks to HEB for the detailed review. I believe I've addressed all items raised by him above. All invited to comment here if any further concerns about POV or Sourcing. 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:2583:8935:E1BE:BC93 (talk) 06:58, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

I think you missed one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Removal of tags

Having worked extensively to address issues of paid contributions (essentially rewriting the article as an independent editor myself) and reliable sources (removing all sources with any connection to BYU/LDS and replacing them with independent and reliable ones), and seeing no further unresolved issues raised here after two weeks, I have now removed the promo and citation tags from the main article. Cheers 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:797D:6F7D:BC1C:D163 (talk) 00:10, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

That isn't how it works... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:20, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Can you please explain why you think each tag is still warranted on this article? 2600:1700:1BD0:3FF0:797D:6F7D:BC1C:D163 (talk) 00:23, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

I did above and at this point I would add your edits as more reason to keep them. An IP insisting that relevent tags need to be removed and going beyond what is reasonable is good enough reason to keep them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

With regards to sources, it appears you only have concerns with one source; therefore, it no longer makes sense to have an article-wide tag that says, "This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject" when it has by-and-large been resolved of that. As a result, I've now replaced with article-wide sources tag with inline tags on the specific source while that is being worked. Thank you. 2620:1F7:8B5:284B:0:0:31:386 (talk) 17:53, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

I raised concerns about multiple sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

You need to stop edit warring your changes into the article instead of getting consensus. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:19, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

User:Horse Eye's Back has been blocked indefinitely (diff) for a pattern of disruptive edits, which were also manifested here. As outlined extensively, this article has been completely re-written by uninvolved editors, so I am removing the paid contributions tag. ~2026-27354-94 (talk) 06:38, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Harold B. Lee Library

COI tag (September 2024)

GA Reassessment

Harold B. Lee Library

Lead changes

Addressing "sources too closely associated with the subject"

Removal of tags

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