Talk:Hope Memorial Bridge

ClevelandHistorical.org states that the Hope Memorial Bridge was named for "Bob Hope and his family". This same source, however, is contradicted by a 2002 Plain Dealer story already present in the article: "... the county decided to honor comedian and former Clevelander Bob Hope through his father, Harry, who was part of a stoneworking team on the bridge." Based on the older PD source, I did some research, and confirmed that the bridge was in fact dedicated specifically to Harry Hope. I've added a PD story from September 2, 1983, the day after the dedication ceremony, accordingly. Levdr1lp / talk 15:13, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I have reverted to the July 19 version until we arrive at some type of consensus. Levdr1lp / talk 18:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I had added numerous sources (before the revert) which showed that nationally, the bridge is viewed as not only honoring his family, but the man himself. It is frequently included with all the other building and streets and what not he has named after Hope. Not arguing over the fact that it was named after Harry Hope, but it also can't be brushed over that the bridge is considered as part of Bob's legacy as well. This situation doesn't have to be one or the other, there's enough room to cover all the bases - named after the stonemason father AND considered as part of the famous entertainer's legacy. There's plenty of sources to verify both things. Named after Harry - FACT. Considered as part of Bob's legacy - FACT. Not gonna go tit-for tat, but I don't think it's unreasonable to see that there's something for everybody here, so it doesn't have to be either/or. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- I have no problem with mentioning Bob Hope. Unfortunately, that does not address the fact there are conflicting sources (see list below). Levdr1lp / talk 18:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp I don't see those sources as a conflict, to me it shows all bases are covered regarding the interested parties...Harry the stonemason who helped build the bridge's most iconic feature, and Bob the world famous entertainer who is considered a favorite son of his longtime hometown. No need to be one or the other, when there's plenty of room to include both. Vjmlhds (talk) 18:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- Numbers 1, 3, 5, & 8 Multiple sources below would disagree with you. Levdr1lp / talk 19:03, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp I must not be making myself clear...I never once said anything against the fact that the bridge was named after Harry - that is indisputable. My thing is that the bridge is also viewed as being part of Bob's legacy as well. Named after Harry and considered as part of Bob's legacy. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- I don't have a problem noting that Bob Hope is the son of Harry Hope. The "legacy" talk is original research, however. Stick to what the sources actually say. Levdr1lp / talk 19:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp I have added what i think are 4 solid sources which I think show that the bridge not only reflects being named after Bob Hope's family, but also the man himself. Let me reiterate...never denied that Harry Hope was who it was named after, but I think I have shown that multiple credible reference have shown that Bob is also recognized as being honored as well. This was never a case about either Harry or Bob, but both Harry and Bob. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- You are certainly entitled to that view. I'm not necessarily convinced. At the very least, we need more eyes on this. My primary concern is the date of many of these sources. Older sources, which are likely more accurate as they were written closer to when the dedication actually occurred, tend to claim that the bridge was named for Harry Hope (there are other archived PD sources I haven't added yet). Also note that the Cuyahoga County: The First 200 Years book is worded very much like the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History entry; I would not be surprised if that's where the author found her information. So if the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History is wrong, then that book is wrong, too. WP:RSCONTEXT & Age matters both deal with these issues. Levdr1lp / talk 20:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp If we include the Cleveland Historical.org reference into the list below, that would give us 4 that say the bridge was named after Bob, 5 that say it was named after the family collectively (w/ Cleveland Historical added in), and 8 that say Harry only. That means 9/17 (over 50%) say that Bob has at least partial credit as for who the bridge was named after. Hate to sound like a broken record, but I never once disputed Harry's claim in having the bridge named after him, my whole contention was that merely Bob should get a piece as well, and there's plenty of evidence that say that is the case. I would love a 3rd set of eyes to take a look-see and settle this. Vjmlhds (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- I'm still adding sources, but that shouldn't stop you from requesting input from the Cleveland Wikiproject, posting a request for comment, etc. I also dispute your claim that "over 50%" give Bob Hope credit (for one thing, it's 16 sources, not 17, now that you've removed the self-published blog). Did you not see the political cartoon? Honestly, if the PD coverage is any inidication, the new name was kind of a joke for most of the '80s. Levdr1lp / talk 22:05, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- given the 18 sources below, arranged in chronological order, are you willing to reconsider the wording I proposed? Here it is:

"On September 1, 1983, the bridge was renamed in honor of William Henry 'Harry' Hope, a local stonemason who helped erect the 'Guardians of Traffic' sculptures, and the father of famous Clevelander Bob Hope."

If not, then I suggest you consider the following points:

• 10 of 18 sources state that the bridge was named for Harry Hope;
• all sources contemporary to the 1983 dedication, the earliest sources available, state the bridge was named for Harry Hope;
• only 4 of 18 sources state the bridge was named specifically for Bob Hope;
• the earliest source stating the bridge was named specifically for Bob Hope is 2002, and it's a political speech delivered by a politician (so WP:WEIGHT);
• none of the four it-was-named-for-Bob-Hope sources are local, and all were published 19 or more years after the 1983 dedication: 2002 Congressional Record, 2009 Hope Book, 2014 Buffalo.com entry, & 2015 NYBooks.com entry.

And before you say that you never disputed that the bridge was named for Harry Hope, please remember what you first said in this thread:

"... the bridge is viewed as not only honoring his family, but [Bob Hope] himself."

When taking all available sources into account, the most reasonable conclusion is that the bridge was named for Harry Hope. Not the family. Not his son (despite Bob Hope's celebrity).

Levdr1lp / talk 22:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I think some acknowledgement has to be made to the fact that there is a lot of sources who include the bridge as part of the collection of other buildings, etc. named after Bob. If we add to the end of your new wording (who has also been credited as being honored by the bridge's renaming) - or at least something to that effect, that would cover all bases. And when I said "not only honoring his family", that included Harry - family means collectively. I'm sorry because I didn't mention Harry specifically you got the wrong idea, but family meant the collective unit. Vjmlhds (talk) 23:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- "A lot of sources" say the bridge was named after Bob Hope? It's only 4 of 18, all 4 of which are non-local and were published 19+ years after the 1983 dedication. Do you suggest we ignore the majority of sources which state the bridge was named for Harry Hope? Again, I have no problem noting that Harry Hope is Bob Hope's father. It's the leap to "the bridge is named for Bob Hope" or "the bridge is part of Bob Hope's legacy" that I can't support, partly because there are conflicting sources, mainly because when considering the date and context of all 18 sources, it's pretty clear that the bridge was named for Harry Hope. Levdr1lp / talk 23:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- To reiterate one of my earlier points, I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that the multiple stories (& one political cartoon) from the local Plain Dealer newspaper at the time of the September 1983 dedication which specifically state that the bridge was named for Harry Hope, that those sources are more reliable than any of the later sources. To quote WP:IRS:

"With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing."

Congressman Dennis Kucinich was arguably pandering in his 2002 speech delivered 19 years after the dedication. The 2009 book, from a Boston publisher, is a Bob Hope biography (unlike the older PD sources which cover the bridge dedication specifically). And both the 2014 Buffalo.com & 2015 NYBooks.com links were written more than three decades after the dedication, and by non-local journalists. Did either Jeff Simon (Buffalo.com) or Frank Rich (NYBooks.com) report on Cuyahoga County Engineer Thomas Neff whose idea it was in the summer of 1983 to honor Harry Hope? No, that was Paulina Thoma & Tom Feran & others of the Plain Dealer in 1983/84 (if he's not named in the quotes below, then I will gladly provide additional quotes... trust me, he's mentioned repeatedly). Ditto for the Associated Press story from 1983.

Levdr1lp / talk 14:08, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp I think sometimes we get too caught up in the weeds of things, where we leave ourselves absolutely no wiggle room. I don't think it can be disputed that Bob Hope has (at minimum) a tangible connection to the bridge. All I'm asking for is an acknowledgement that he is a part of the bridge's history. To say he has absolutely no ties to the bridge is wrong. Never did I say that the bridge was named for him and him alone...but to say he has no connection to it is completely shortsighted. There are enough sources to show that there is a connection. Vjmlhds (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- You are certainly free to think that "we get too caught up in the weeds". I'm not sure it's particularly relevant. You still have not addressed any of the points I've raised regarding the reliability of these 18 sources. Until you begin to address those points, I just don't see this discussion going anywhere. Levdr1lp / talk 14:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

It's pretty clear what happened in the bridge naming, from what the sources say, which is that the Hope name comes from the famous comedian and his not-famous father who helped build the bridge. It's not like they picked one of the stonemasons at random to name the bridge after. So we ought to represent that in the article; surely we can converge on a wording that is not contradicted by the sources. Dicklyon (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Dicklyon- For obvious reasons, I don't have an issue with noting the Bob Hope connection, and I have already indicated this at least twice in the above thread. Also, please note that while I have proposed a wording from which to start, Vjmlhds has yet to comment on it. Levdr1lp / talk 15:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Dicklyon - Which is what I did before Levdr quickly reverted it. My wording: "The bridge was closed from 1980-1983 for renovations, In 1983 during a reopening ceremony, the bridge was officially renamed for William Henry "Harry" Hope, a local stone mason who helped build the "Guardians of Traffic" sculptures.. Harry Hope is the father of actor/comedian and longtime Cleveland resident Bob Hope. Hope's family was present at the reopening/renaming ceremony. In recent years, the bridge has also been referenced as honoring the entertainer, as well as honoring his family's stonemason roots." Everything there has been verified amongst the 18 references listed above. 1. bridge on record as named after Harry, 2. as the years have gone on, the bridge has been credited as part of Bob's legacy (vis a vis all the buildings and what not named after him all over the country). 3. bridge considered to encompass the Hope family collectively - both the stonemason roots AND the celebrity status of the famous "hometown boy done good" (Bob). My wording encompasses all these variables. To say the bridge was merely named after Harry and leaving it at that seems shortsighted. Vjmlhds (talk) 15:53, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I do not oppose noting the Bob Hope connection. How many different ways can I say this? By the way, given the lack of outside input (Dicklyon aside), I've opened a RFC. Feel free to weigh in. Levdr1lp / talk 15:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- By the way, I'm still waiting for you to comment on the wording I've proposed- here on this talk page. (strike after rereading Vjmlhds' previous comment) I'm willing to work with you, but not if you insist on discussing this through edit summaries. Levdr1lp / talk 15:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp - not trying to be unreasonable. There's plenty of fruit on the tree. The difference between you and me is that I can see space for the apples, oranges, and lemons, while all you want is the apples, and are excluding the oranges and lemons. Vjmlhds (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- If we're going to use fruit analogies, then you've certainly been cherry-picking. I am more satisfied now, however, that you have revised your original proposal based on all of the 18 sources (& not just the 4 that support your original view), even if reluctantly. Levdr1lp / talk 16:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's a revised proposal based on Vjmlhds' post above:

"On September 1, 1983, the bridge was officially renamed in honor of William Henry 'Harry' Hope, a local stonemason who helped build the 'Guardians of Traffic' sculptures, and the father of comedian and former Cleveland resident Bob Hope. In the years since the dedication, however, sources have differed as to who exactly the bridge honors. Some now claim the bridge was renamed specifically for Bob Hope; others the entire Hope family; and still others claim it recognizes Harry Hope along with the other workers who helped erect the giant concrete pylons."

I removed the info on the family attending the ceremony as it seems trivial, especially since Bob Hope himself was not present. And I cannot find a second source to verify the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History claim that Hope family members other than Harry were stonemasons. The info on the renovations can be dealt with separately in the preceding sentence. Levdr1lp / talk

Levdr1lp I'd soften that up just a touch. First sentence is fine as is, 2nd sentence - "In the ensuing years since the renaming ceremony, the bridge has gone on to be cited as also honoring Bob Hope, as well as the entire Hope Family (noting their roots in the city of Cleveland and in the stonemason profession)". The way you worded things make it sound like there was something dubious afoot, which isn't the case. I go back to my main thesis...this isn't either/or, and there's plenty of evidence to support all claims regarding who has "credit" (for lack of a better word) for who is being honored by the bridge - Harry (who helped build the bridge), Bob (the big celebrity), and the entire family (noting city and professional ties). This isn't a "dispute" as much as it is noting that there's all kinds of tentacles wrapped around the subject. Life always isn't just plain old cut and dry "X is right, Y is wrong". Vjmlhds (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- I'm glad we agree on the first sentence. As for the second sentence, you can't just blend all of the differing sources together- that's synthesis. I know you might prefer a more unified explanation for the name, but content is determined by coverage, even if it's internally contradictory. Do you not agree that the sources differ from one another? Levdr1lp / talk 18:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp We can go round and round all day and get nowhere...I put in my proposal, you put in yours, so let's see what unbiased eyes have to say. I can live with whatever happens. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- I thought that was obvious, but with one key difference: we need to start building toward a single version in the RfC section below. I think our agreement on the first sentence in my proposal is a good place to start. Levdr1lp / talk 19:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Levdr1lp There's no reason to disagree about the first part. The bridge was closed for renovations for several years, was reopened in '83, and with some pageantry was renamed in honor of Harry Hope...all certified indisputable facts. Another thing we both seem to agree on is acknowledging Bob Hope's connection to it...there's no way a big celebrity like that with obvious ties to the bridge can be ignored. Our only real difference of opinion is how to present that connection. I think it's safe to assume when the bridge is mentioned, the first "Hope" the average Joe thinks of is Bob, and not necessarily Harry. And there's enough evidence to show that others around the country have the same way of thinking. It's finding a way to best present this real life view people have is where we're stuck. Vjmlhds (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- 14 of the 18 sources say otherwise. While all 18 sources obviously note the Bob Hope connection, 14 very clearly state that the bride was built to honor Harry Hope, the whole Hope family, or Harry and his fellow stonecutters. Most (10) are specifically for Harry. I do not deny there are 4 sources which support your view, but you are conveniently overlooking the 14 which do not. Levdr1lp / talk 20:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Vjmlhds- Though it should go without saying, any further discussion on this really belongs in the RfC section below. Levdr1lp / talk 20:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)