Talk:Imperial crest of Japan

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jeffrey34555 (talk) 16:47, 28 September 2025 (UTC)

• Imperial Seal of Japan → Imperial crest of Japan
• Government Seal of Japan → Government crest of JapanGovernment crest of Japan
• National seals of Japan → National emblems of Japan

– All across Wikipedia (including some, but not all, foreign language pages, such as German and French) these symbols are called seals. A seal is a specific object. Seals in the Sinosphere are used similarly to seals in the West, where they are used to authenticate documents. While the impression of a seal can serve to identify a certain individual, it possesses additional legal and technical functions which are not seen either in Japanese Mon or Western heraldry – whose use is simply in that of identification. It is also worth briefly noting that in the United States of America facsimiles of seals are often used in lieu of heraldry, and as such emblems may be incorrectly referred to as seals when they do not actually function as such (most seals, such as the Great Seal of the United States or state seals are real or based on real seals however). The Wikipedia page for seals elaborates on this at the end of the lead. It is important to distinguish from this so that foreign terminology is not used inadvertently. For ease of reading, I will refer to everything using its current name on Wikipedia.

In the Japanese language the difference is clear. The Privy Seal of Japan (御璽, literally "imperial seal"), State Seal of Japan (国璽, literally national or state seal), and Cabinet Seal of Japan (Japanese Wikipedia link) (内閣印, literally cabinet seal) are seals. They are used in the traditional manner, by having ink applied to the matrix and then being impressed onto a document. The Imperial Seal (菊紋, literally chrysanthemum crest (in Western heraldry a crest is the part of the coat of arms which appears above the helm and shield, however as the English Wikipedia page for mon explains, they are often called the crest) or chrysanthemum mon (it has some additional names which all mean essentially the same thing, and make no mention of it being a seal: 菊花紋, 菊花紋章, and 菊の御紋)) and the Government Seal of Japan (this symbol commonly refers to the the 5-7 Paulownia (五七桐, literally five seven Paulownia), which is one of the many paulownia mon (桐紋, literally Paulownia crest(s) (also sometimes known as 桐花紋)).

The latter two symbols function only as mon, and the former three seals function only as seals. I believe there is no dispute about this, and all pages individually make that clear. I have myself made that clear on the page for national seals of Japan before I had the idea of requesting this move.

It is now worth looking into how these terms are translated into English from Japanese. For the State and Privy Seal, there is a general consensus that these are always called as such. Some information from outside of Wikipedia can be found on the Imperial Household Agency's page. There is little information about the Cabinet seal, however its use can be observed on various documents uploaded to the internet, such as the document seen on the following page, appointing Makoto Oniki to be deputy minister of defence, where it is seen alongside the larger Privy Seal. This too can be accurately referred to as a seal. The English names for the two mon is more complicated. On Wikimedia projects, we can observe that various names are used, including Imperial seals and Kiku mon (Japanese crests of chrysanthemum). These categories themselves are part of categories which refer to mon as crests (Japanese crests of flowers and plants) or by their literal name (Mon by name). The former category is within Mon (emblem). The Imperial seal's file names usually refer to it as either a seal or crest, while the Government seals (plural as many different paulownia crests exist) file names always refers to it as a crest. It seems clear that for this type of symbol it is accepted that they are called emblems, crests, or mon. It is only for these two particular mon, that is the Imperial and Government seals, which are called seals. There is no other mon which is called a seal. As previously mentioned, the articles themselves make it clear that this is not a seal, but an emblem. The usage of the imperial seal as a banner or coat of arms in Western heraldry exemplifies its primary function, and it is not commonly seen on imperial documents.

Outside of Wikipedia results vary. I believe that due to the fact that these names have always been used on Wikipedia there has been some impact on the internet, with other websites following course, not really knowing (or needing to know) what is a seal and what isn't, and as such have started to use these names. However I believe that it should be generally agreeable that it is not appropriate to refer to this as a seal. It is difficult to find authoritative sources on this topic, but I believe the following are acceptable to represent general usage:

• Edwin O. Reischauer and others, Japan: An Illustrated Encyclopedia (Kodansha 1993), p 200: "The chrysanthemum has long been considered a noble flower, and the crest of the imperial household is a stylized representation of a chrysanthemum blossom."
• "The Chrysanthemum: Flower of Emperors" on nippon.com: "ichimonji (flat blossoms with two overlapping rows of petals, the type of chrysanthemum on which the imperial crest is based)."
• Danielle Demetriou, 'Golden phoenixes and 16-petal crests: Japan's Emperor Naruhito to take seat on Chrysanthemum Throne' The Telegraph (22 October 2019): "The golden roof is adorned with 16-petal chrysanthemum crests, crowned by a clutch of mythical phoenix birds in flight. Sitting just next to it is a smaller twin version of the same curtained throne, reserved for the empress."
• W. H. Hodge, 'Would You Believe A Chrusanthemum Kabuki' The New York Times (14 November 1971), section D, p 39: "The chrysanthemum, with 16‐ray flowers (or showy petals), is the Emperor's flower and has served as the crest of the Imperial Family for over a century. Actually, the identical chrysanthemum crest has existed as a familiar design in Japanese arts and crafts for over 800 years."
• France 24: 'Gold, silk, lacquer: the kit and garb of Japan's imperial ceremony': The emperor's seat sits inside a canopy featuring rich purple curtains hanging from a roof decorated with golden curlicue adornments and 16-petal chrysanthemum crests.

There is less coverage on the government seal, as it is just a simple mon used to symbolise various organisations, however there are various databases which can be found on the Paulownia crests, none of which refer to it as seals. They can be found under external links on Government Seal of Japan, one of which actually uses the word crest.

Many users have voiced their concerns on various talk pages over the years, I found one example from 2006 on how the imperial seal is not a seal. I believe the reason that these names have endured for so long is simply because no one cares, however I also believe that there is a large potential to inadvertently mislead readers. As such I think it is important that the above pages are changed to more accurate titles.

Before I finish, I would just like to take note of the pages for South Korea and Mongolia, who clearly have their emblem labelled as the emblem, and the seal labelled as the seal. National seals of the Republic of China, similar to the page for Japan, includes only actual seals, and not emblems. On Emblem of Vietnam, emblems and seals are clearly distinguished by being titled correctly. For the PRC, the former seal is correctly labelled on its own page, while the usual symbol is the National Emblem of China. Practice across Wikipedia clearly shows that the term 'seal' is only used for objects which are actually seals (seals in the USA notwithstanding). I therefore do not see why Japan should be exempt from this. I apologise for any errors in translation or typography I have made. notadev (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 04:21, 23 September 2025 (UTC)

I wish to note that there is probably some argument to be made on whether "Chrysanthemum Crest" or "Imperial Crest" is the more appropriate name. Chrysanthemum Crest is of course the commonly used expression in English and Japanese. This is seen in the English language resources provided in my original submission, and is the predominately used phrase as it is the most literal and correct one.

However, my requested move requests "Imperial Crest", because whether the word Imperial is appropriate or not was outside of the scope of the request. I think that this expression is, for the time being, acceptable, as the Chrysanthemum Crest is the Imperial Crest. More information on the Chrysanthemum and its history in Japan can be found here. Furthermore, it is the title which would be the least different to the current title, and the title which would be most recognisable, albeit not as descriptive or commonly used as Chrysanthemum Crest. "Imperial Seal" has been present on Wikipedia for many years, and as such this title would be the least disruptive option.

The expressions are mutually exchangeable however, so much so that you can actually find academic resources say "Imperial Chrysanthemum Crest". This expression can be found, among other places, in the following articles:

• Hiroshi Narumi, "Street Style and Its Meaning in Postwar Japan" (2010) 14(4) Fashion Theory, 415–438. 10.2752/175174110X12792058833816: "Other symbols which are used on tokkofuku include the rising sun, the Imperial chrysanthemum crest", "which also depicted images of Japanese “rising sun,” or the Imperial chrysanthemum crest."
• TIME Magazine, 5 May 1952: "In his dark grey 1951 'Cadillac with the 16-petal imperial chrysanthemum crest upon it, Emperor Hirohito made an official call on Supreme Allied Commander Matthew B. Ridgway."
• Hugo Dobson, "The Stamp of Approval: Decision-Making Processes and Policies in Japan and the UK" (2005) 22 East Asia, 56-76. 10.1007/s12140-005-0009-3: "It was in 1948 that the use of the imperial chrysanthemum crest on stamps was abolished by the occupation forces to distinguish the government clearly from the Imperial institution."

I personally believe that "Imperial Crest of Japan" is the most appropriate title at this time. The lead of the page should immediately specify that it is known as the Chrysanthemum Crest in Japanese and most English sources (it already does this somewhat, but says "Chrysanthemum Seal", which is neither used in English nor a correct translation). I believe that "Chrysanthemum Crest [of Japan]" may not be as quickly and easily understood as the alternative option. notadev (talk) 00:59, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

Since posting this I have realised that 'crest' should not be capitalised, as this appears usual practice with emblems and coats of arms. notadev (talk) 04:54, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

Weak Support: I am finding approximately equal number of English sources for both crest and seal, but the crest sources seem in general more academic and reliable, though I will note crysanthemum crest is also common for the Imperial crest/seal, though I agree it is less immediately recognizable.

An aside note, I feel you would get more engagement if you kept your argument to two/three paragraphs max and focused only on what these are called in English outside of Wikipedia or actual Wikipedia rules (not what other things are called in Wikipedia as those may also be incorrect even if they are relevant, which they often aren't). We also do not decide what is a correct/good translation ourselves. We only reflect what is used in the Anglosphere. Erynamrod (talk) 10:02, 25 September 2025 (UTC)