(see discussions above to clarify the dispute, and the section below entitled "FA Status?")
1. "Securing the Reformation" is a subheading summarizing how Calvin took over Geneva, threw out competing protestant reformers, set up a school, and sent out missionaries. "Securing" implies a value judgment that the Reformation was insecure before Calvin took over Geneva and established a school. Many would say that the Reformation became insecure once Calvin took it over in Geneva. It needs a neutral heading, such as "Calvin's Victory" or "Expelling the Libertines".
2. I suggest re-writing the last paragraph of "Securing the Reformation" to remove emotive words, take the reader out of the action, and keep the style of the rest of the article: "By the February 1555 elections many of the French refugees had been granted citizenship, and with their support, Calvin's partisans elected the majority of the syndics and the councillors. On 16 May, having lost the election, the Spiritueles and Patriots, on their way to burn down a house full of French refugees, were intercepted by the syndic Henri Aulbert. Perrin and other leaders were forced to flee the city. With the approval of Calvin, the other plotters who remained in the city were found and executed. The opposition to Calvin's church polity came to an end.[63]" Markewilliams (talk) 04:15, 7 February 2013 (UTC) Markewilliams (talk)
- Do you think the edit I made a little while back addresses your concerns? --JFH (talk) 02:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not enough. It needs to be neutral, i.e. Catholics, atheists, Arminians, Spiritueles and Calvinists would all agree that the paragraph was written from a neutral point of view. "Libertines" is a pejorative name that Calvin coined to describe people who called themselves "Spiritueles". I don't think any other article on Wikipedia would get away with using pejorative terms for the opposition party. There were also other groups that joined with the Spiritueles, the Patriots, and the Humanists. "The libertines conspired and attempted to burn down a house that was supposedly full of Frenchmen." "Conspired" means they all got together and planned. It is redundant unless you want to inject emotional wording that is not neutral. Of course they got together and planned it. "Supposedly" suggests they hadn't done their research or were drunk. Why "supposedly"? Is the reader to suspect that they didn't know what they were doing? "Perrin seized the baton, thereby signifying that he was taking power, a virtual coup d'état." Why are we privy to this minor incident when we have skipped all of the humiliating things that Calvin did to Perrin, making him walk on his knees through the streets wearing only a shirt, to apologize for his rebelliousness? Why this particular detail, grabbing the baton? Why not the other details? Either give much more detail to everything in the story, or eliminate this detail. Otherwise the story is being told almost exclusively from a Calvinist's viewpoint. Catholics, Spiritueles and Patriots would emphasize other details entirely. All the details are true, but who gets to choose which details to tell? Eliminate all the details and just tell the main points. "A virtual coup d'état" is saying the same thing twice redundantly, and would only please Calvinists to re-emphasize repetitively something that has already been stated previously before. "The insurrection was soon over" is another phrase that is redundant, and only pleases Calvinists. Markewilliams (talk) 16:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- "Many would say that the Reformation became insecure once Calvin took it over in Geneva." Really... can you provide a source for that? ReformedArsenal (talk) 16:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- The Libertines/Spiritueles were one of the first to object to Calvin's brand of reformation, Servetus was number two, G.K. Chesterton in his book Orthodoxy criticizes Calvin's theology, Tyacke chronicles those who fought against Calvinism in England immediately following Calvin's life. I'm not sure what you're asking. I believe anyone who disagrees with Calvin would also believe that he headed the Reformation in the wrong direction, and the list of theologians who disagree with Calvin is a long one. Markewilliams (talk) 02:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Papire Masson: "I will not be lying if I say that he was the ruin and destruction of France. If only he had died in childhood or had never been born. For he brought so much ill to his country that it is legitimate to hate and detest his origins." Vita Ioannis Calvini (Lutetiae, Paris, 1620). Markewilliams (talk) 04:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
You've found a contemporary Catholic who thought Calvin was evil... Could you now use your impressive research abilities to find me a Republican who thinks that Obama is evil? It's about the same thing. What you need to do to make progress is find a contemporary historian who argues that Calvin's actions and thoughts either did NOTHING in terms of advancing the Reformation, or made it less secure... if it did either of those things then it is by definition "not securing", however... if it did neither of those then it is by definition "securing".
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 15:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm tired of the sarcasm. Just ask for what you want without the sarcasm, please. Yes, I can find people who were contemporaries of Calvin that thought that he was ruining the progress of Christianity, and I can find contemporary historians who do not admire what Calvin did and view the ensuing years of his influence as damaging. That's what I have been saying. The only people who view Calvin as a hero are within the reformed movement. Everyone else viewed and views his influence on the reformation as unhelpful. All contemporary historians who do not admire Calvin would say that he did much for the Reformation that was harmful. Only historians within the reformed tradition say that Calvin secured the reformation. But the real issue that I want to discuss with you is that you want the Wikipedia article to judge as good what Calvin did, and that is not neutral, and is not what a Wikipedia article is for. You can quote a historian who admires Calvin to say that he secured the Reformation. That is fine with me. But for Wikipedia to say he secured the Reformation is not fine. Just say he took over, everyone agrees with that. Don't say he took over and did something good. Leave the judging up to the reader. Markewilliams (talk) 00:32, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
"I can find conteporary historians who do not admire what Calvin did and view the ensurin gyears of his influence as damaging." Then provide one. So far you haven't provided a single modern source. "Only historians within the reformed tradition say that Calvin secured the reformation." That's a pretty generalized statement. "Everyone else viewed and views his influence on the reformation as unhelpful." Historian Margo Todd traces Calvin's influence to show how it was instrumental to the Reformation movements in Britain, which she seems to think is a pretty positive thing. (
Margo (2007), "A People's Reformation?", in Matheeson, Peter (ed.), People's History of Christianity, vol. 5, Fortress Press, pp. 70–91, ISBN 978-1-4514-1591-9, retrieved 2 March 2013) Her teaching post is as the "Walter H Annenberg Professor of British History at the University of Pensylvania, and she doesn't have any particularly Reformed commitments.
Kenneth Scott Latourette has an entire chapter in his opum magnus dedicated to the rise of the Reformed churches and there isn't a single word about Calvin somehow jeopardizing the Reformation. What he does say is "Like Luther, through hsi writings Calvin had an influence which extended over much of Western Europe." (
Latourette, Kenneth; Winter, Ralph (1975), A History of Christianity: A.D. 1500 - A.D.1975, Prince Press, p. 759, ISBN 978-1-56563-329-2, retrieved 2 March 2013). He also is not a Reformed historian. Finally, least Reformed of all,
Justo González in his chapter on John Calvin says "Without a doubt, the most important systematizer of Protestant theology in the sixteenth century was John Calvin." (
González, Justo (1 January 2001), From Augustine to the Eve of Reformation, vol. 2, Abingdon Press, p. 61, ISBN 978-0-687-17183-5, retrieved 2 March 2013) I'm happy to discuss the situation, but you're making unfounded statements, with no sources. That doesn't make for a compelling argument. Oh yeah... just for good measure
Roger Olson, author of
Against Cavinism, writes of Calvin "John Calvin is the most widely known Protestant reformer" and "his influence on English-spakin Protestants has been incalculable." (
Olson, Roger (1975), God in Dispute, Baker, p. 121, ISBN 978-0-8010-3639-2)
ReformedArsenal (
talk) 02:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with all of the statements you quoted. If the heading was one of those statements I would not object. Those are neutral statements about Calvin's influence. None of those statements say his influence was good or bad, just large. Everyone agrees on that. Just alter the heading to reflect one of those neutral statements and I will be happy. Markewilliams (talk) 17:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've reworded the parts of the paragraph that others have complained about. I disagree with your contentions on the rest of it. If no one else chimes in in support of further edits, I think the NPOV tag should be removed. --JFH (talk) 16:58, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
- I won't agree with that until there is consensus. Perhaps if you could get the others who criticized the paragraph in the first place to agree that the paragraph now is both well written and neutral I would agree to the notice for #2 above being taken down. That would still leave #1. Markewilliams (talk) 02:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- The other criticism was only of the "plotting to make trouble" and "set off to burn down a house" wording, which has been eliminated. Right now you are the only person who has expressed concern about any other issue in the paragraph. --JFH (talk) 03:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- If you can get two people out of 84.197.178.75, KillerChihuahua, RedSoxFan2434, or Collect, who have commented on the section in the past, to agree that the paragraph is both well written and neutral, I will withdraw #2. Markewilliams (talk) 10:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Markewilliams, I suggest you familiarise yourself with Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. The fact of whether particular editors identify themselves as Calvinists or not is irrelevant to the establishment of consensus. StAnselm (talk) 11:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- We don't have consensus yet. "The libertines allowed the trial to drag on in an attempt to harass Calvin...It's not a subject I'm interested in, landed here by accident, but thought I'd mention it, the general tone seems inappropriate for an FA article. I'll return to science now, bye 84.197.178.75" Also in the Legacy section it might be appropriate to quote one or two authors who are not pleased with Calvin's influence on Christianity, in an effort to show all sides of Calvin's legacy. Markewilliams (talk) 02:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Well, your tag is in the Securing the Reformation section so I'm not sure why we're going into other sections. If you or someone else have no further objections, I'll remove the tag. Then we can talk about other sections or general TONE issues. --
JFH (
talk) 20:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- I still have objections to this section. Please read them above. Markewilliams (talk) 22:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Your objections have been discussed, here as well as in other locations on this talk page, and no other editor has found them convincing. --JFH (talk) 23:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- I have quoted an editor who was before me, that originally got me thinking that this page was not neutral. I have offered a way for me to withdraw one of my objections. But the rules for NPOV notices that I read, correct me if I am wrong, do not require that more than one editor object to a section's neutrality. Markewilliams (talk) 02:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- You're wrong. Wikipedia does not follow minority rules policies. If you have an objection, you bring it up, we discuss it, and we follow what the consensus is (51-99% is a consensus).
- Could you please point me to the appropriate policy that I missed? Markewilliams (talk) 00:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BRD and WP:CONS ReformedArsenal (talk) 11:16, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for those references. I'm not seeing where they say 51% is consensus. Markewilliams (talk) 10:45, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's the definition of consensus. Where does it say it say something else? ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- "Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote… Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's norms.The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever." By this definition almost none of my arguments have been discussed. My arguments were just dismissed with "I don't agree", and "You can continue to bury your head in the sand but that's just the way it is", "your story is quaint", or "no other editor has found them convincing", but mostly just silence. No, we do not have consensus according to the Wikipedia definition. Markewilliams (talk) 13:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:CONS#Level_of_consensus
I believe I've explained that I think the details of the incident being described is necessary because it is confusing without them. The opponents of Calvin are commonly called "libertines" in RSes, so it only adds unnecessary confusion to use the other terms. Explaining that a coup d'etat was implied is necessary to convey the gravity of the situation. Saying that the house was "supposedly" full of Frenchmen is not implying that the libertines were drunk or buffoons, but apparently either the house was not full of Frenchmen or it is an open historical question. --
JFH (
talk) 18:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- It would match the rest of the article better if the paragraph was deleted entirely and it only stated that the refugee votes put Calvin over the top. To include Perrin's seizing of the baton without including other much more important details throughout Calvin's life, or even the prior humiliation of Perrin and Ameaux by the consistory, seems biased and confusing. For the entire article we are at arm's length from the historical details, but suddenly in the baton seizing story we are in-the-action, for a minor detail about what you believe is a coup d'etat, which lasted all of ten minutes or less. I can't imagine that Perrin thought that grabbing the baton of power would enable him to take back Geneva. It sounds to me like he lost his temper and acted impulsively for a few moments. Michael Mullet in his Historical Dictionary of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation manages to tell the story of John Calvin and his victory over the Perrinites without mentioning Perrin's grab of the baton, nor of a group called the "libertines". I am aware that the opponents of Calvin are commonly called "libertines" in RSes, just as the opponents of McCarthy were commonly called communists, the opponents of apartheid were commonly called terrorists in the newspapers I read in South Africa, Martin Luther King Jr. was commonly called a communist from the pulpits of America, the Jews were called many things, American Indians were called many things, and the Taliban today is commonly called a terrorist organization, but it is still not permitted on Wikipedia to call a group by a pejorative name chosen by the victors. Markewilliams (talk) 04:13, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
That dictionary article is considerably shorter than this article, and by the way it uses the word "coup." The length of time over which the event occurred or Perrin's intentions are irrelevant. The event seems like an important one in Calvin's life. It states the facts, and helps the reader understand why all of the sudden the libertines are gone. As for the term "libertine;" "Christian," "Lutheran," and "Calvinist" were also originally pejoratives. We can't always use the terms a group prefers for themselves. You've admitted RSes use the term, so we should as well. --
JFH (
talk) 14:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
- The article is shorter, I will give you that. I thought it said the expected coup did not happen. Wikipedia insists on not using pejorative terms to describe opponents, because it is not neutral. The reason Calvin's opposition disappeared was because they lost the election, Geneva having offered shelter to religious refugees from all over Europe who voted for Calvin's side. Yes, the street fight and the plan to burn a house down did contribute to their final extermination, but their ultimate loss of power was the election. Markewilliams (talk) 23:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I forgot to respond. You're right, it does say the coup didn't happen, but that's presumably in the sense of not being completed. But the term is being used here to say that Perrin's action symbolized that he was initiating a coup (or something like it, hence the word "virtual"). That is what the sources say, and it is something that the average person reading the article won't understand. Please point me to the WP policy or guideline which demands that we not use a pejorative which is commonly used by RSes to describe a group. Many Calvinists prefer other terms than "Calvinist," but that does not mean that we must change the way we refer to them. You're right that the loss of the election is the primary cause for the loss of the libertines' power, and the first few sentences of the paragraph talk about it. I don't see how mentioning the incident which culminated in their expulsion is POV. --JFH (talk) 21:22, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Here is a summary in an intro by Backus and Benedict of the overturn of Geneva [1] The opposition is referred to as Les Enfants de Geneve (The Children of Geneva) on page 8, and Ami Perrin is named as their leader, along with Philibert Berthelier (who was denied communion for several things, one of which was for belching in front of Calvin). The intro gives a few instances of the power of the consistory and the irritation of the people towards its decisions, which helps the reader understand the opposition's irritation. The grabbing of the baton is only summarized as "a riot", and the subsequent trial of 12 leaders, which I prefer as a better way to summarize the final takeover of Geneva for this article. Unless the WP article goes into greater detail throughout Calvin's time in Geneva, it doesn't make sense to me to go into such great detail for the riot only. Markewilliams (talk) 04:41, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- If you are arguing that the article gives a lopsided account by cherry-picking facts, you have much more work to do as it is well-sourced, and based on my knowledge of the literature presents Calvin's life in pretty much the standard way. That last source was a collection of essays, so you're not going to be able to argue that the article is unbalanced based on it. --JFH (talk) 18:35, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- I was using the example to show that historians do not always use Calvin's disparaging term "libertines" when referring to Calvin's opposition. I was also using the example to show that a balanced telling of the take over of Geneva either (1) includes both details of why the opposition didn't like Calvin as well as the riot, OR (2) does not include the detail of grabbing the baton. Yes, I am accusing the current state of the article of cherry picking to make Calvin look better than most histories of Calvin. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.63.103.38 (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- (Assuming the above IP is Markewilliams). I realize I've taken a long break from this, but I'd like to resolve it. I've made an edit that might resolve some of your concerns. I don't think there's good reason to suppose that Perrin was attempting to initiate a coup, so I made that clear. I also found in a new source that the protest was a drunken riot, so that may explain some of the concerns you had with "supposedely". Let me know if you still think there is an NPOV issue, and if so I will start an RfC. --JFH (talk) 19:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
- Timestamp changeMarkewilliams (talk) 00:31, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
There are apparently three issues per this edit summary, also see the discussion above:
- The title of the "Securing the Reformation" section (discussed previously here)
- The inclusion of "insignificant details", presumably regarding Perrin's grabbing of the baton of office (feel free to clarify, Markewilliams)
- Whether the party(s) opposed to Calvin should be called "libertines". JFH (talk) 01:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- No change, 1 has been resolved with an RfC, and I see nothing new. 2: Perrin's grabbing of the baton is not an insignificant event in Calvin's life, as demonstrated by its mention in three high-quality RSes, as well as the fact that it marks a turning point since it led to Perrin and his followers to be expelled, allowing Calvin to act unopposed. Markewilliams's argument that Perrin was acting impulsively is WP:OR. 3: "Libertines" may not have been the term preferred by this group (neither was "Calvinist" for Calvin's followers) but RSes often use it. --JFH (talk) 01:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Change, 1 was never resolved. All but one of those who voted not to change the title identified themselves as Calvinists on their homepages. All but one of the others voted to change the title. The Reformation was not "secured" by John Calvin. It was co-opted, taken over by cutting people's heads off, but not secured. The Reformation was Insecured by John Calvin, and is still recovering. We all agree he took over Geneva. We all agree on the facts. We don't agree on the POV. 2 The section has been carefully written to make Calvin look like he had no choice but to chop people's heads off. There are numerous examples from other encyclopedias that completely leave out the grabbing of the baton. In fact I haven't found any other encyclopedia that includes that incident. 3 Wikipedia specifically forbids calling a political group by a name that they have not chosen themselves, regardless of how many sources use the more disparaging term. They have been called other names in other history books (les enfants de Genève, literally: children of Geneva, Patriots, Spiritueles). Why are these names not being used here? Why only the slur that Calvin slapped on them because he hated them so much? Because this page is not neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markewilliams (talk • contribs) 03:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comments -
- (1) - Honestly, I can see that changing the section title might not be a bad idea, but I am myself far from sure what alternate title to give it, and, without a clear indication of what to change it to, I think the current title is acceptable. "Securing" can have multiple meanings, and I think in this case it can be seen as acceptable, although, having said that, I would be open to considering certain specific changes.
- (2) It would really help if it were made clear exactly what is being discussed here, although I'm guessing this is about the baton. Personally, I would suggest going through some of the other highly regarded reference works and their biographies of Calvin to see if this detail is mentioned, and, if it isn't mentioned often, I could see it being removed. But we would probably need to see specifically which reference sources don't mention it and which do, and I'm not seeing that information yet.
- (3) At this point, don't see reason to change, but it certainly would be possible, again, to review relevant reference sources which discuss Calvin and Calvinism and length and add information here regarding what if any names or descriptions the "libertines" are given there. But I can't see a change without a clear indication of what to change it to, and I'm not seeing that yet here.
- So, while I could see some of the changes proposed, I would need to see better indications of what to change (1) and (3) to, and clearer negative evidence regarding exactly who does and does not discuss (2) at length. John Carter (talk) 01:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Hi John Carter, This is the second RfC on this topic. The first one did not receive much comment, and was unresolved. So it languished for a few months until one of the participants in the discussion deleted the POV dispute without reaching consensus. So the POV dispute was re-instituted. If you would read the previous discussion you would find that all of your issues have been addressed at length.
- 1: Two editors have made it clear that they want the title "Securing the Reformation" to indicate that Calvin and Calvinism saved the entire Reformation, and that the corner was finally turned at this point in Geneva. I would estimate that only 10% of Protestants would agree with that idea that Calvinism saved the Reformation, and certainly Catholics and other would disagree with that POV (none of the people Calvin kicked out of town or had beheaded or burnt at the stake would agree he secured the reformation). Opposition vanquished has been suggested as a possible section title.
- 2: The baton is the main problem in this section. The article sails along, hitting the high points, until this section, then suddenly we are in the middle of the action, a drunken riot with a tug of war with a baton. Why is this important? Evidently to support the idea that Calvin was justified in having the opposition people's heads chopped off. I cannot find the baton event discussed in any other encyclopedia, so I cannot give you any references. It only occurs in detailed histories of Calvin in Geneva.
- 3: Calvin nicknamed his opposition the Libertines after a passage in the book of Acts when the apostle Paul was opposed by the synagogue of the Libertines (false teachers in the apostle Paul's view). It was a disparaging name tag that the opposition never accepted for themselves. They called themselves by three names: The Children of Geneva, the Spiritueles, and the Patriots. Wikipedia forbids the use of a disparaging name given to a political party that the party does not accept for itself. This is a clear violation of Wikipedia policy to keep calling the opposition "Libertines" no matter how many other historians use the term Markewilliams (talk) 23:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
- I found this somewhat at random and have no experience in the history of religion, but nonetheless: I agree that the heading "Securing the Reformation" is inaccurate and probably non-neutral to summarize a section that describes various power struggles between Calvin and his opponents. Even if it were the consensus of reliable sources that the result of all this was "securing the reformation", the text in the section should explicitly say so, and source it. As it is, I don't see a connection between the section title and the section's contents. Sandstein 15:15, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
- No change - per reasons by Jfhutson (JFH). United States Man (talk) 22:25, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
- Change
- 1: "Securing the Reformation" seems a bad title all round. It neither accurately labels the contents of the section, nor represents a neutral POV. "Removing opposition in Geneva" seems more accurate, although the final choice of title depends largely on what the section contains after it's re-written.
- 2: The whole section needs re-writing, as it is not neutral in tone and there are at least a couple of sentences that do not appear to follow on from previous ones. I don't think the baton is the problem, as it seems to me an important symbolic event. It's the events surrounding the baton that don't appear to be adequately covered. There's no explanation of how we get from Perrin taking the baton to his being forced to flee the city, and there's no indication of Calvin's connection to any of it. The section needs more information and neutral wording.
- 3: "Libertines" seems to be the Calvanist name for these groups, but it is not a NPOV name. It needs to be replaced with the actual group names throughout the article. The fact that some RSs use it seems to me to be irrelevant. Reliable sources aren't required to be unbiased, but Wikipedia is. Feraess (talk) 10:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- It looks like everyone who is going to comment has commented. It looks like 4 votes to 2 votes to change the title and change the name of the Libertines throughout the article. If there is no more discussion, I will make those changes in a week from now.Markewilliams (talk) 19:30, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, I think you will need to ask an uninvolved editor to close the discussion, since you are involved. StAnselm (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep "Securing the Reformation" title per previous RfC. Keep the "libertines" name - once again, this is the most common name in reliable sources. There are a number of groups whose disparaging names have stuck, and we use them here on wikipedia. Most notably, of course, the Antinomians, but also the Pneumatomachi ("Spirit-fighters") of the fourth century. No opinion on the second point. StAnselm (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- We've always agreed that "libertines" is the most common name in reliable sources. That is an irrelevant observation, since RSs do not have to abide by WP policies. The fact that other disparaging names have stuck in WP articles is also irrelevant; they should be upgraded to keep WP standards as well. Address the argument: Disparaging names violate WP standards. And there are three other names the group called themselves by that can be used.Markewilliams (talk) 23:56, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Are you seriously saying that the Antinomianism article should change its name? StAnselm (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
How many times is this going to get reposted... it's been put up here like 5 or 6 times and every time we vote not to change it. ReformedArsenal (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- It has only been up once, and has never come to a consensus. It was taken down, against WP rules, and had to be put back up again. Again we are tied with the votes. So it cannot be taken down. WP is tough that way.Markewilliams (talk) 02:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- You keep on using that word. We don't normally count votes on Wikipedia. If you think your arguments are stronger (and I'm sure you do), I suggest you ask someone to close the discussion. StAnselm (talk) 03:04, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Requested Closure from an Administrator as per StAnselm's suggestion.Markewilliams (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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