Talk:Lake Gistova

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The Alpin Lake of Gramos is located at an altitude of 2,375 m, on the Albanian side of the Gramos mountain.Ilirio'starja (talk) 00:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Lake Drakolimni or Gistova is located in Greece as all the international maps indicate. The sun rises from the East and sets from the West. Geographical Revisionism is not accepted. Changing the border pyramids it wont change the borders. As we talking Google map has already being informed of what has happened. Facts are sacred comments are free.

1) https://wego.here.com/?map=40.36458,20.79138,17.96

2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/40.36486/20.77759&layers=P

3)https://earth.google.com/web/@40.24867303,20.72206932,1587.12013806a,430.59951344d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CgRCAggBOgMKATBCAggASg0I____________ARAA Aetolia (talk) 18:12, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Does anyone know if online maps are enough to support this according to WP standards, we do have Template:Cite Google Maps. It would be best if it was mentioned in some sort of border treaty or by an Albanian government institution. Lots of low quality sources say it's Greek, haven't seen any claiming it's Albanian.

P.S. Just checked, Google Maps has it on both sides with the border running straight through it. Seems like shared control is the most likely truth.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 22:37, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, international boundaries, since 1914 all maps and all resources available in the world place the borders as they are today in the Balkan region between Greece and Albania. Albanian revisionism is something that has started in the area after 2000. They even claim that Alexander the great was Albanian. More precisely Lake Gistova is called as well as Drakolimni but has no Albanian name as it is currently written and claimed. Above all to prove what I claim about the name Drakolimni it is in Wikipedia as an article well. (1) Therefore we have two articles with the same subject.

In addition the borders between Greece and Albania as we talk are marked with small movable pyramids that have been moved lately towards Greece. The changes were report to google map and slowly from Albanian lake it has moved to half and half curently Athens is in consultation o the issue with google map. All what I am describing is in the Hellenic media news as well.(2) Therefore you have to be critical with claims without substantiation from the Albanian revisionist side/sources and Wikipedia has to create a security apparatus with viable English sources/links that checks claims with legit references. Thank you for your attention.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakolimni

2) https://epirusgate.gr/i-google-metetrepse-ti-drakolimni-tou-grammou-gkistova-se-alvaniki/ See also,https://primenews.press/i-alvania-fainetai-na-ekmetallevetai-mia-sovari-koutoprovokatsia-me-stocho-na-diekdikisei-elliniko-edafos/ Aetolia (talk) 14:27, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

It is important to know we cannot cite Wikipedia on wikipedia. The Drakolimni page also isn't very good with only one source on the lakes (and one on the biodiversity) and I wouldn't call it a high quality source. It's also important Lake Gristova isn't called Drakolimni, since that's a collective name for a bunch of lakes, of which Gristova is one, so we don't have a duplicate page. However I do think it might be possible to merge all Dracolimni lakes into one article. Those other two sources are quite interesting, I think it is best to wait for google to respond and see what they have to say, or see some reporting on the issue outside of Albania and Greece.

I could perhaps try to look into it more myself, but I'm already busy with another politically controversial project so I don't have too much energy right now. I would ask for help in the Wikiprojects Greece and Albania. (I don't think Wikiproject lakes would be very interested, but who knows.)

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 14:42, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

How many pictures or international sites non Greek or international agreements I have to document to prove that Lake Gistova or Drakolimni is the same thing and that lake Guistova drakolimniis located in Greece? If I start claiming that I, as a person I am you are you going to believe it? I personally think so that this is becoming a little funny when it comes of not believing international magazines sources and maps and European and international agreements.

Facts are Sacred Comments are Free

https://stock.adobe.com/search?k=drakolimni

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

https://www.shutterstock.com/pl/editorial/image-editorial/panoramic-aerial-view-drone-drakolimni-lake-tymfi-11855634a

https://powertraveller.com/papigko-2-day-drakolimni-and-voidomatis-springs-hiking-tour/ Aetolia (talk) 14:59, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS on reliable sources and WP:OR on original research. Drawing conclusions from pictures is called original research. I'm not here to take a stand in any political conflict, I'm just here to keep editors following the rules of wikipedia.

If you have a link to those international agreements than things could be solved very quickly.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 15:22, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

Official website of the Greek National Tourism Organisation More official than that it cannot be done. Aetolia (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, more official can be done... Like an official border treaty ratified by both countries. Like it seems Albania and Greece have a border conflict, so the Greek government would of course state their position.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 16:22, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

https://shop.geospatial.com/Your authoritative source for global mapping, geospatial data and GIS services That is more official than google map...

Next:Something that Defense and Intel services use...not Wikipedia O guess?

https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/8S7S7J39TQXX4QADMPWT4Q9CC4/Greece-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps Aetolia (talk) 17:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm no expert on the use of maps for sources, for these things I would highly recommend getting editors who are more experienced involved in this. I guess English isn't your first language, so sometimes it is difficult to understand what you exactly want from me. I highly advice you to ask someone on wikiproject greece and/or albania for help on this. Else try asking at the Teahouse.

Since this does seem to be getting some news attention outside of Greece, for example here is an Albanian Voxnews article, it shouldn't be hard to find people who would be interested in it.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 17:39, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

English is my first language. Sometime now I am giving you the facts as they are and you cannot read them correctly. As you previously said you cannot read/comprehend maps and what they mean, yet you can read the articles that have been written by non Greek writers. Also, I forwarded the Greek Ministry of tourism site. Their info is in English and also Greece belongs to the EU. I don't know what else to tell you or do if you are not an expert on reading articles or lacking skills reading maps.

Nevertheless, I have already forwarded Maps, Intel sources with maps (official ones) and tourist Sites that have been for there for years. Aetolia (talk) 18:27, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

I'm not denying any facts or sources. The fact you are not getting that is what is making me doubt that English is your first language. I am saying that I don't know the precise details of how to use these sources and how to go around the problems of bias in these situations. The problem is not what the sources say, it is whether they are admissible on wikipedia or if they are admissible on wikipedia without the other side of the argument. (I.E. ignoring a dispute and only presenting one side of the argument)

Therefor once again: I advice you to talk with people from wikiproject Greece, Albania or maybe even lakes and ask them if they know someone who is experienced with a situation like this.

I cannot help you much right now, I don't even know what you want. There seems to be an international conflict going on of which I do not know enough context to make bold edits.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 19:39, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

I want nothing from you or wikipedia, but just to make clear that prior to changing the article that dealt with Lake Gistova that someone was using revisionist policies and claiming that lake Gistova is in Albania. I am a security analyst and that's why I can find info on the matter at any given moment. I present facts not claims. All the info is admissible to Wikipedia if you know about maps and geography and history. They are old and new, and above all accepted in the International arena.

The sun rises from the east and sets from the West. In addition the Albanian lakename (Liqeni i Gramozit) never existed in history but suddenly appeared on this site claiming areas that don't belong to Albania. Yes, I have more sources and more live Intel maps on this issue if needed. Facts are Sacred and Comments are Free. Thank you for your attention. Aetolia (talk) 20:56, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Google map has made a mistake and from Albanian lake moved to half and half but it is on the Greek side. The foreign ministryis working on this issue with google map. Facts are sacred comments are free. There is an article of Drakolimni in Wikipedia which is lake Gistova ...The same thing

1) https://wego.here.com/?map=40.36458,20.79138,17.96

2) https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/40.36486/20.77759&layers=P

3)https://earth.google.com/web/@40.24867303,20.72206932,1587.12013806a,430.59951344d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CgRCAggBOgM Aetolia (talk) 14:30, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

Official website of the Greek National Tourism Organisation More official than that it cannot be done Aetolia (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

The lake is in the albanian side of the border, Source 1. - Leutrim.P (talk) 20:34, 8 June 2026 (UTC)

@Leutrim.P: Please provide a valid, reliable secondary or institutional citation for your claim. Per Wikipedia's Verifiability policy (WP:V), individual assertions cannot override official state geodetic frameworks. The border layout along the watershed ridge is explicitly mapped by the following official authorities:

1. AKPT Framework: The national spatial planning data openly places the basin outside the Albanian administrative sector via the AKPT Interactive Map: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=ff270e99f5be45f19c7b7a1e3e618b27&extent=2313524.2226%2C4918645.5462%2C2315293.0232%2C4919436.1917%2C102100

2. ASIG Geoportal: Under the supervision of the Albanian Prime Minister's Office, the official ASIG Map Platform clearly delineates the frontier: https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true (Instructions for review: Zoom directly to the Greek-Albanian frontier at Lake Gistova and toggle the left-side menu to activate the 2007 20cm orthophoto bottom imagery layer to view the definitive boundary line).

3. Topographic Surveying: This state boundary data is structurally verified by standard regional records, including the official K-34-126 Korçë 1:100,000 Scale Topographic Map: https://shop.geospatial.com/product/GRTR6ZGGV83KM0YJNW8WFQJX32/K-34-126-Kor%C3%A7a-Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps

Please present concrete, high-quality institutional references if you wish to contest these primary sovereign mapping layers. ~2026-33936-94 (talk) 01:34, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2025

Lake Gistova or Drakolimni (Greek: Λίμνη Γκιστόβα) is an alpine lake in the Kastoria regional unit[1], northwestern Greece.[2] [3] It is located at an elevation of about 2,350 metres (7,710 ft), on the Gramos mountain.[4] The nearest village is Gramos in Greece. The last years the lake through social media and websites took more attention and more people come to visit it.[5]

References 1 "Αλπικές Λίμνες Γκιστόβα και Μουτσάλια". Digital Kastoria (in Greek). 2021-06-06. Retrieved 2025-02-24.See also:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakolimni, See also:https://www.travel.gr/en/experiences-ee/unknown-greece/smolikas-drakolimni-sub-alpine-lake-with-wild-orchids-on-greeces-second-tallest-mountain/ see also:https://elxis.com/have-you-heard-of-greeces-dragon-lake/ see also:https://lifessmallworldsbig.com/hiking-the-dragon-lake-drakolimni-greece/ see also:https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/drakolimni see also: https://www.easyreserve.com/travel-ideas/2019/greece/activities/hiking/drakolimni see also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42mbOMLRJos see also: https://olympusmountaineering.com/2017/08/23/mount-tymfi-pindos-thru-hike-part-2-dragon-lake-drakolimni/ see also: https://www.tripadvisor.com/AttractionProductReview-g970274-d25437232-Dragon_lake_Trekking_from_Mikro_Papigko_to_Drakolimni-Papigko_Zagorohoria_Ioannina.html 2 Bledzki, Leszek (2016). Freshwater Crustacean Zooplankton of Europe: Cladocera & Copepoda (Calanoida, Cyclopoida) Key to species identification, with notes on ecology, distribution, methods and introduction to data analysis. Springer. p. 886.

3"Mastorochoria: The Ultimate Greek Winter Getaway". athens-express.gr. 2020-11-25. Retrieved 2022-03-19.

4 "Δρακόλιμνη Γράμμου (Γκιστόβα) (2350μ)". www.konitsa.gr (in Greek). Retrieved 2022-01-09. 5 "Η ΔΡΑΚΟΛΙΜΝΗ ΤΟΥ ΓΡΑΜΜΟΥ (ΓΚΙΣΤΟΒΑ) ΣΤΑ 2.350 ΜΕΤΡΑ". OlaDeka (in Greek). 2018-06-11. Retrieved 2022-03-19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aetolia (talk • contribs) 17:16, 24 February 2025 (UTC)

The lake is on the border

There are 2 academic RS for that in the article, and more can be easily provided. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:58, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

To be fair to Aetolia here, while I have concluded from my post-block discussion with him (mostly by me; he just insists on saying "They're good sources and I'm right"), we cannot say authoritatively from either Google Maps or any of the other maps he cites that the lake straddles the border, neither of the two sources currently in the article prove this either. The book is offline so I can't personally verify it and, as well, it looks like a scientific treatise, which is not concerned with accurately describing the location of the border and should not be considered a reliable source for that information. That tourism website not only may not be an RS, its statement that the lake is the highest in Greece does not disprove it being on the border. Daniel Case (talk) 02:50, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The 2 sources are Bledzki and Alfonso et al., not the tourism website. Both are online, and the latter source is a group of academics who visited the lake multiple times to study it. Both say that the lake is on the border, not near the border in Greece as Aetolia claims. I could not find RS beyond these, apparently because almost nobody gives a f about this small lake on the top of a mountain well-known for its harsh conditions. One can find online tourism companies in both Albania and Greece that organize visits to the area, including the lake, so it is obvious that the lake is accessed by both countries. While this is not a RS speaking, it is an indication that indeed the lake is on the border and shared by the 2 countries. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Bledzki actually just cites Alfonso's work. There is also a work by Greek biologists that lists Gistova among the cross-border lakes, though only Alfonso et al. can be considered an in-depth source, as they visited the lake multiple times to study it. The others just mention it in passing or cite Alfonso. There are also 2 Albanian academic sources which mention Gistova as the highest lake in Albania, but they don't say whether they consider the lake to be fully or partially in the country, i.e. not clear enough for our purpose. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, we have four sources cited right now. One, Athens Express, should be removed as it clearly fails our definition of a reliable source. The idea that "tour companies from both countries listing the lake as a destination proves it's on the border" is not just a stretch, it's OR. Tour companies may believe the lake is on the border, but that doesn't mean it is. Tour companies do not define borders. They cannot be expected to be accurate sources for where they are.

Likewise for the scientists ... unless the location of the border is in some way relevant to the research, I would not consider their papers reliable sources for where the border is, as that is matter of law, not science, as Speederzzz observed here several months ago.

Really, the best thing to do would be to get in touch with the consulates of both countries and see if they can find anything in their laws or records. Daniel Case (talk) 02:05, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Just to butt in while I'm at work, perhaps the website of the State Authority for Geospatial Information (and if it exists its Greek counterpart) could provide some answers. I sadly can't do the in-depth research I want rn, else my boss is going to look angry at me.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 07:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Daniel, I have never used tourist companies or Athens Express as sources in this or any other article. The only reason why I have not removed it is as a good faith act; I added an academic source saying that the lake is the highest in Albania, and Athens Express serves as a source that the lake is the highest in Greece as well.

I agree with both of you that some official government source from both countries would be helpful and desirable, however this is all I can find online and I won't bother contacting governments, be it consulates or something else. If someone wants a better source, they should find it by themselves. I did what I could do with the very limited resources that are available online. After all, it seems that few people care enough about the lake to write about it in RS; indeed although I have a good degree of knowledge about southern Albania and northern Greece, I had never heard about this lake before. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:43, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I never accused you of putting Athens Express in. But that's beside the point, which is that we should not be using it. An authoritative source saying the lake is the highest in Albania does not make it OK to use a tour company's website saying the same lake is the highest in Greece. Good faith has no bearing on the reliability of sources.

(To have a little more fun with this, look how Bing Maps depicts it: entirely within Albania.) Daniel Case (talk) 03:10, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Daniel Case, ok I am removing Athens Express. I came across that website of the Albanian Government, where the PM is cited as promoting the lake as a tourism asset. So Aetolia's claim that the Albanian Government has never mentioned the lake as part of Albania's territory is not true. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:24, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I thought that Athens Express was a news site, not a tourism guide. I should have better checked it or better read your first post. My bad, I made the discussion over Athens Express longer than needed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:30, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Salom Speederzzand everybody else...

Since Daniel seems to enjoy the subject of Geography, I concur with you and with everybody that Official primary sources are needed on this matter and I would like to help Daniel by providing them. I have documented and included certain Official Government Albanian Geospatial Maps from the Civilian and military sector in order to be checked and verified. Therefore, we can clarify where this Glacier Lake Gistova or Drakolimni resides geographically once and for all. I did the home work for everybody and the sites posted here are active and cannot be changed by anyone. Well even if somehow, some elements of revisionism try to change their own Civilian Geospatial resources I would like to inform that they have already been digitalized and stored for further evidence in the near future if needed.

Now Daniel as far as Eddie Rama's expression concerning this little Glacier Lake of being Albanian, I would like to illuminate that they are orally spoken words but not official written foreign policy of the state, but even if it was just to make your major point heard here, the Prime minister of Albania Eddie Rama should had consulted with his advisors first and secondly studied his nations Official military and Civilian topographic maps concerning this glacier lake’s territorial sovereignty before making a claimless statement. (1)

Mr. Eddi Rama knows that any official written irredentist policies won’t bring Albania closer to its European dream of joining the civilized nations of the EU, quite the opposite. However, to return to our original discussion, I did the investigation for Daniel concerning the Albanian official sources and since in his Wikipedia resume claims that he studied the art of Geography I am sure that the Official Civilian and Albanian military topographic Gov sites and documents will shed light on the situation of where Gistova or Drakolimni lake actually resides. However, to defend his questioning concerning Albanian flip flop irredentism or to amplify it better as a mistake, many maps used by Albanian circles have discrepancies especially the newer ones when they are cited by geospatial private enterprises like, Tom Tom, Bing and Google map. Not by chance, though. As a prime example, here you can see how two images in the same site differ concerning lake Gistova position on the Albanian population statistical site https://instatgis.gov.al/ Check imagery versus Imagery Hybrid??

I would recommend to our Albanian friends to be consistent in their endeavors when it comes to this matter. Afterall, the lake has changed in Google map from being Greek to becoming totally Albanian and now being shared 50-50? Nevertheless, this issue soon will get clarified with those companies as well.

Lastly, I would like to provide the official Greek Military topographic site that is located were the Albanian military one is located as well. One site that cannot be tampered by any outside source. The Albanian Military one has two active internet addresses made by the Institutin Topografik të Ushtrisë or better known as the Albanian Army Topographic Institute (2) and as a final touch the official Greek military one as well. (3) Both institutions are active organizations of their Ministries of Defense.

Yes, now moving to the Albanian SAIG (National Infrastructure of Geospatial Information of the Republic of Albania) is slightly complicated but nevertheless, we can get a good picture of the reality on the ground by scrolling and zooming and above all we must remember that all the maps overlap equally despite certain vague discrepancies on the Greek Albanian border. Here anybody else can visit this SAIG official government address https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true and just zoom where Lake Gistova/ Drakolimni is located. You will be surprised and this is only the beginning. Nevertheless, more information is detailed below in a footnote form in order to be checked and verified once more.

Speederzz, I don’t remember sending you the Athens Express site but if I did I apologize but the one that was enclosed during our past conversations is the Official Greek government Tourist one (4)

In conclusion to the administrators Izno and Daniel, Nemesis 1944 is not me, you can believe it or not, that is for you to decide. The only thing that, I expect now after everybody checks the official Albanian government sites is how to rethink how we can readjust the article in a more corrective form and place geographical reality on the ground. I will be looking for your comments on this matter

Facts are sacred comments are free.

1)https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true (Please zoom here directly to the Greek Albanian frontier where Lake Gistova is located and the rest will clarify by itself

https://akpt.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=ff270e99f5be45f19c7b7a1e3e618b27 ( from https://planifikimi.gov.al/ ) See also, https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?fc_name=DEM_2015&auto=trueSee also: https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?fc_name=Ortofoto_2018&auto=true See, also: https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?fc_name=61_bashki_2020&auto=true

2)Official Albanian Military Topographical maps: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/38PCREFVGPMH4RPD0MSAVZHMV6/Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps see also, https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/0K48DGWKGBQ44E21WWYBAJKMS7/Albania-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps

3)Official Hellenic Geographical Service: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/8S7S7J39TQXX4QADMPWT4Q9CC4/Greece-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps see also:

4) https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/ Aetolia (talk) 04:22, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

This is a strange rant that veers into Eddie and/or Eddi Rama (who?), implications that Abania is somehow uncivilised (... won’t bring Albania closer to its European dream of joining the civilized nations of the EU...), Albanian flip flop irredentism (what?) and the subjective interpretation of map overlays. Most of this has nothing to do with the lake.

Interpreting primary maps and using them to override secondary academic RS is WP:OR, is it not? Also, the political commentary about Albania’s EU aspirations, "flip-flop irredentism" and their supposed dream of becoming civilised are quite worrisome and indicative of Albanophobic sentiments, something which unfortunately surfaces across a number of Balkan-related articles. Let’s stick to RS bibliography and drop the national insinuations.

Regarding Lake Gistova (also known as Liqeni i Gramozit in Albanian), I have found the following two sources which indicate that the lake is considered to be at the very least partially within Albania, although perhaps more sources can be found:

- this is a list of papers presented at the 'Scientific Conference: Inhabited Centres of Albania – The Present and the Future', held in 2021 by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. A compilation of the conference's proceedings was published in 2023 under the title "Qendrat e banuara të Shqipërisë – gjendja dhe e ardhmja: libri i kumtesave" (Inhabited Centres of Albania – The Present and the Future: Book of Proceedings). This volume includes 43 scientific papers presented by 58 authors and co-authors from the Academy of Sciences and twelve universities across Albania and Kosovo. The following paper - Doc. Dr. Arben Belba & MSc. Amarildo Shallas, Shpërndarja Hapësinore e Qyteteve dhe Modelet e Lëvizjes në Nivel Bashkie dhe Qarku - begins on page 518. On page 526, it reads as follows: Pasuria liqenore plotësohet edhe nga liqenet akullnajore në malet e Shebenikut, Valamarës, Gurit të Topit, Gurit të Zi dhe Gramozit. Ato dallohen për përmasat e vogla dhe vlerat ekologjike e peizazhore (Belba 2015:10). The list of glacial lakes is presented as part of the natural hydrography of Albania. All the other mountains listed (Shebenik, Valamarë, Guri i Topit, Guri i Zi) are located entirely within Albania. The clear contextual implication is that it is considered part of Albania’s lake system - especially in a state-funded academic publication focused on Korçë’s geography.
titled Mapping of Albanian Hydromonuments, According to the New Administrative Territorial Division, the authors - Ermiona Braholli and Suela Hena - say the following: Liqenet akullnajorë janë liqene që janë formuar në lugje akullnajore, në cirqe dhe komplekse cirqesh, të periudhës së akullzimit të kuaternarit (Pervizi, 2016). Liqenet gjenden nga lartësia 1105 m (liqeni i Dushkut) në 2400m (liqeni i Gramozit). Mund të shfaqen të veçuar ose në grumbuj liqenesh. Sipërfaqja ujore, 132 pastërtia e ujit, biodiversiteti i pasur dhe peizazhi estetik, i bën këta liqene tepër interesantë për t’u studiuar. Liqenet akullnajore pjesë e hidrotrashëgimisë janë: liqeni i Luleve, liqeni i Zi, liqeni i Madh, liqeni i Zi (mbi Radomirë), liqenet e Kacnisë, liqeni i Zi, liqenet e Valamarës, liqeni i Dushkut, liqeni i Zi në Lenie, liqenet e Rajcës, liqeni i Shebenikut, liqenet e Lenies, liqeni akullnajor i Gramozit, liqenet e Lukovës, liqenet akullnajore të Dobërdolit, liqenet akullnajorë të Sylbicës, liqeni i Jezercës, liqeni i Pejës dhe liqeni Ponarëve (Qiriazi & Sala, Monumentet e Natyrës të Shqipërisë, 2006). Now, this has been published in Buletini i Shkencave Shoqërore (Bulletin of Social Sciences), which, from what I can gather, seems to be a peer-reviewed academic journal published by the Faculty of Education and Philology at the University "Fan S. Noli" in Korçë, Albania. Now, I am not 100% sure on whether this falls entirely under WP:RS or not, but even in the case that it doesn't, the passage directly cites Monumentet e natyrës të Shqipërisë by Qiriazi and Bego . I cannot access this document, but if someone could, it would most definitely be worth taking a look. These are additional sources that clearly consider Gistova as being within Albania's borders, although Braholli and Hena don't specify whether it's on the border or anything else.

This is such a hard topic to find concrete information on, but it would seem that the lake is variously treated as part of Albania, part of Greece, or as part of the border between the two nations. Nothing indicating with certainty that it is just in Greece. Please also keep in mind that multiple lakes with the name Drakolimni exist in Greece. Botushali (talk) 11:06, 7 May 2025 (UTC)

It is of no secret that multiple lakes in Greece with the name Drakolimni exist too however Lake Gistova’s, local second name happens to be called Drakolimi as well. (1) Now let’s return to my primary Albanian government sources (2) those that are coming direct from the official Albanian Ministry of Defense and those of the official Albanian geospatial agency (1) vis-à-vis your argument that its main defense lies on secondary written sources, namely peer purview articles among the Albanian University educational system and Kosovo only. (3)

Therefore, are you implying that these professors, researchers or PhD students that wrote 2 or more scientific research papers within Albania claiming what they are claiming and just by representing certain Albanian educational institutions as an example the Korytsa University have more validity than the official Albanian Geospatial state agency or the Topographical Institute of the Albanian Ministry of Defense? In other words, are they questioning the sovereign territory of Albania as we know it and its international borders as they have been represented among the Greek Albanian frontier since 1913 with their so-called scientific research? With all due respect, what are you claiming has no scientific or legal validity in the international arena of arbitration visa vis the official Albanian Geospatial agency and that of the Albanian Ministry of defense topographical primary artifacts. Lastly, I am willing for a Wikipedia Admin arbitrator in order for this Greek -Albanian Travesty to come for an end. The administrator Daniel Case seems to be a knowledgably personality on matters of geography and I am looking forward for his opinion on this matter or if he can recommend others that they do. Given the fact that some Admins did request primary sources, in order to solve the issues, well I found them therefore the question is what now? These Official Albanian Government Geospatial sources are not gray nor are based on secondary ones but they are primary, reliable accurate, legal and above all straight from the horse’s mouth. The only thing that, I expect now after everybody checks the official Albanian government sites is how we can readjust the article in a more corrective form and place geographical reality on the ground. I will be looking for Admin Wikipedia comments on this matter

Facts are sacred comments are free.

1) https://www.visitgreece.gr/inspirations/dragon-lakes/

2) https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/0K48DGWKGBQ44E21WWYBAJKMS7/Albania-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps See, also: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/38PCREFVGPMH4RPD0MSAVZHMV6/Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps, See also: https://akpt.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=ff270e99f5be45f19c7b7a1e3e618b27

3) Batusali’s argument on Primary Albanian Geospatial Government sources vis-à-vis secondary research papers within Albania’s Educational system, See at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lake_Gistova Aetolia (talk) 02:26, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

I’m not familiar with “Batusali” and “Korytsa University” – the proper terms would be helpful in this discussion.

That said, please do not misrepresent my position. At no point did I claim that peer-reviewed research from Albanian universities is superior simply because of its origin. I cited academic secondary sources - including work published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania - because they directly describe the lake in textual form, which is consistent with how Wikipedia handles source material. That is in line with WP:RS and WP:SECONDARY.

On the other hand, your approach - using primary cartographic material (military or civilian topographic maps) and interpreting their overlays to assert a specific legal or geographic claim - leans more towards original research under WP:OR and WP:PRIMARY. On top of that, what about those maps clearly indicates that Lake Gistova is entirely within Greece? Wikipedia policy is clear: we summarise what reliable secondary sources say; we do not independently interpret primary materials, especially on sensitive topics like international boundaries.

Your comments about researchers “questioning the sovereign territory of Albania” and your framing of this as a “Greek–Albanian travesty” are rather inappropriate. This is not a political tribunal. It’s a content discussion governed by sourcing policy, not by nationalism. Let’s keep the focus where it belongs - on reliable, policy-compliant sources, not speculative interpretations or inflammatory rhetoric. Botushali (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Greetings to Mr. Botushali

Your words: I’m not familiar with “Batusali” and “Korytsa University” – the proper terms would be helpful in this discussion.

Now if I am not wearing my classes I make mistakes, and I am guilty here and I apologize. Batusali meant to write Botushali, and Korytsa University is the Anglo version of Korytsa I guess you like the whole word: University "Fan S. Noli" in Korçë, Albania. Now let’s return back in to the real issue since it seems that you are extremely sensitive in accepting facts and primary resources concerning International recognized delimitated borders as they are represented by the State of Albania.

Your comments: This is such a hard topic to find concrete information on, but it would seem that the lake is variously treated as part of Albania, part of Greece, or as part of the border between the two nations. Nothing indicating with certainty that it is just in Greece

Firstly on your comment: This is such a hard topic to find concrete information on…..My answer to your comment: Isn’t the Official Civilian and Military Albanian Geospatial primary geospatial sources enough? Did I forget something? (1) And: but it would seem that the lake is variously treated as part of Albania, part of Greece, or as part of the border between the two nations. Nothing indicating with certainty that it is just in Greece. Could you elaborate on this issue with Albanian Government Civilian and military Geospatial sources and not secondary ones?

Your comment: On top of that, what about those maps clearly indicates that Lake Gistova is entirely within Greece? Are you serious on this matter? Those maps have clearly international border delimitations. They have fixed borders. Are you in a state of denial? Borders are clearly visible and if they were not I am sure that Wikipedia admins would have recommended to find the proper ones. Please don’t throw the ball outside from the field. I did the outmost by providing to the Wikipedia Admin with Primary sources as they requested, (2) thus you have to find something legal binding as I did to prove that I am wrong with my legal artifacts and I assure you that my argument will be withdrawn, but don’t use sensitivity excuses or by altering the meaning of my words and phrases.

Above all from my understanding is that: "ASIG (Autoriteti Shtetëror për Informacionin Gjeohapësinor) is focused on presenting the geospatial data and services provided by the responsible public authorities, as defined by law no. 72/2012, "On the Organization and Functioning of the National Infrastructure of Geospatial Information in the Republic of Albania". ASIG's main objective is the creation of a geodetic framework to enable the support of a unique map covering the territory of Albania. Through its geoportal, it aims to establish a national infrastructure geospatial database that is accessible to anyone. Note that The State Authority for Geospatial Information (ASIG) (Albanian: Autoriteti Shtetëror për Informacionin Gjeohapësinor) is an Albanian state owned central agency responsible for surveying, mapping and land registering the territory of the Republic of Albania. The agency is under the supervision of the Prime Minister's Office. (3)

In other words, you are using sensitivity as means to justify your answer versus the authority of the Republic of Albania and of the existing registered borders among the State of Albania and Greece?

Your Words: Your comments about researchers “questioning the sovereign territory of Albania” and your framing of this as a “Greek–Albanian travesty” are rather inappropriate.

You are calling this inappropriate? Why? These are facts. The Albanian Defense Ministry and its topographical institute has precedence and legality over people’s views when it comes to international borders and the international rule of law. That is legal and binding therefore Researchers within Albania are free to claim whatever they want but they cannot counter act against the Albanian rule of law concerning International accepted borders. That is the law, fait accompli. Unless the Albanian Republic decides as a whole to change the borders either by legal means using the International Court of Justice or by War, and since that is not currently happening on that part of the border your argument lacks validity, please try to be original and use Primary Legal Binding artifacts that can counter my point of view and reality on the ground. As far as lake Gistova position just by referring and using the Official Albanian government sources, I clearly document that the small glacier lake is located 100% inside the Republic of Greece. Unless you know something that I don’t know please elaborate with primary sources and artifacts and not wishes or Scientific research papers from within the Albanian and Kosovarian Educational community. Nothing wrong to have a different opinion, but an opinion is not a binding Geospatial border delimitation. Lastly, the continuous allegations of the sensitivity justification are not plausible concerning my case. I have 30 percent of Arbëresh DNA and I am proud of it . Now as far as to the Wikipedia Administrators, I would love to have an arbitration on this matter: Primary legal binding Geospatial artifacts that clarify the borderline between two nations vis-à-vis secondary publishing articles that allege otherwise, and without legal binding in the international arena. Thank you for your attention, AETOLIA

Facts are Sacred Comments are Free

1) https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true (Please zoom here directly to the Greek Albanian frontier where Lake Gistova is located and the rest will clarify by itself use the 2007 20 CM bottom picture makes it easier.

Official Albanian Military Topographical maps: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/38PCREFVGPMH4RPD0MSAVZHMV6/Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps see also, https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/0K48DGWKGBQ44E21WWYBAJKMS7/Albania-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps

Official Hellenic Geographical Service: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/8S7S7J39TQXX4QADMPWT4Q9CC4/Greece-1-to-50000-Scale-Topographic-Maps

2)Really, the best thing to do would be to get in touch with the consulates of both countries and see if they can find anything in their laws or records. Daniel Case (talk) 02:05, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

3) https://asig.gov.al/ See also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Authority_for_Geospatial_Information Aetolia (talk) 17:06, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm kind of tired right now, but I did try to read all this, and the most it seems to support saying is "While some official Albanian maps show the lake entirely within Greece, Albanian scientists appear to consider it as shared by the two countries."

The AKPT map does show the lake outside Albania. The ASIG map does too, but only because its photomontage is so incomplete that I cannot even find the lake on it, much less where it is supposed to be. As for the ITU maps, one has to purchase them and we try not to use such sources online if better ones are available. Daniel Case (talk) 03:18, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Purchase the ITU ??? Find the square and zoom in and it clearly shows where the border delimitation is. That is an Official site . You don't need to purchase anything? Just zoom in it. All information is quite open Daniel. Quite open. If you want to buy it that is a different case. Nevertheless the info is quite open to bee seen and to be referred. All are copied by the Official Albanian Military Topographical maps: https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/38PCREFVGPMH4RPD0MSAVZHMV6/Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps see also, If you need help just ask

All ASIG maps overlap exactly.

https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true (Please zoom here directly to the Greek Albanian frontier where Lake Gistova is located all the way to the end and the rest will clarify by itself Above all use the 2007 20 CM bottom picture makes it easier. Use on the left side the 2007 CM bottom picture.

Facts are sacred comments are Free. Albanian scientists within Albania have no precedence over international boundaries that exist since 1914. Ordinary people can claim what ever they want but the Boundaries are boundaries. That is an example too. Are we defending secondary sources from within a cycle of scientists or researchers that lack international recognition? Please don't make it difficult when it is quite clear where the border lies. Aetolia (talk) 04:00, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Everything is there Daniel everything. Open the link: https://geoportal.asig.gov.al/map/?auto=true then chose the 2007 20 Cm square on the lefts bottom press it. and then scroll all the way down to find where lake Gistova lies...

567362.404, 4470179.392 I can assure you cannot miss it.

Also the military of Albania has provided us with lots of info: We dont need to buy. Just to view

Korça, K-34-126

https://shop.geospatial.com/product/GRTR6ZGGV83KM0YJNW8WFQJX32/01-ALAD-GRTR-Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps Aetolia (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

OK, I did that. But this site is not the most intuitive to use; without your instructions I would never have realized that was possible. Given what other mapping sites do so users can figure this out for themselves, this does not lend itself to being the most citable source without adding some instructions to the note.

Really, the more that I look at this it seems Google or its algorithm made a mistake. No other map shows the border transecting the lake; since borders usually follow ridgelines in terrain like this it is just counterintuitive for it to drop off the ridge and cross the lake. Even Bing's map, putting the lake entirely within Albania, does so by putting the border on the ridgeline to the lake's east. Daniel Case (talk) 15:31, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Daniel. Yes, the Albanian site is a little complicated and trust me I did spent time with it in order to prove my point, but it is an official governmental one that no one can argue against it. The military ones that derive from the Albanian and Greek Ministries of Defense you just have to scroll into the squares and follow the map. I used only the Albanian government ones in order to prove my point and lastly the Greek one. Just to make you think, today someone swore at me and not in English lol, not that I care as you can also see at the comments. It seems they don't like facts for one reason or another? Nevertheless, I thank all of you in the Wikipedia Admin for having patience with me.

Cheers Aetolia Aetolia (talk) 16:02, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

More ,maps this time from the European Union's environmental agency for those who might still have questions in the future concerning Lake Gistova's geographical Geolocation which lies solely inside the Republic of Greece. https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/maps-and-charts/water-framework-directive-rbmp

https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/maps-and-charts/water-framework-directive-quality-elements

https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/maps-and-charts/water-framework-directive-rbmp?activeTab=8a280073-bf94-4717-b3e2-1374b57ca99d Aetolia (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2025 (UTC)

Please Daniel I would like to add that they are starting again the same revisionism concerning the location of lake Gistova or Garmozit or Gramoz or Gistove as it is widely known. Its the same Glacier Alpine lake. Now the new revisionism takes place in the Albanian page by using unidentified bots. I edited it , again the Albanian article but they have my review as pending? Is that real? I cite primary sources on my discussion but they just change the page again and again. Please, I need assistance on this matter from any administrator out there that can help on this issue. They cannot use revisionism when facts exist. Certain people try to play revisionist games by changing International borders. Thank you for your attention, Aetolia. Aetolia (talk) 17:26, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, Daniel. Your geographic assessment is entirely accurate: running an international border vector drop off a major watershed ridge line just to arbitrarily slice a small alpine water feature is entirely counterintuitive to standard cartographic delimitation conventions.

Now that Section 6 has formally documented the official state geoportals from both adjacent countries—specifically the Albanian Prime Minister's Office AKPT portal and ASIG—we have the legal-binding proof that the border follows the physical ridge. Since the main article page has successfully been updated with these official institutional citations, the underlying data is settled. I appreciate your diligent review and guidance throughout this geographical verification process. Aetolia (talk) 19:18, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Useful links for the discussion

Since there is a lot of long pieces of text, I wanted to segment off a little part to list some policies, essays and discussions that might be helpful for this long conversation.

The first is WP:PRIMARY which always comes in when we use primary sources. Wikipedia doesn't ban primary sources, but they do need to fulfill some criteria. Those criteria are listed in the link.

I also found an essay (so not a policy) WP:MAPCITE about interpreting maps.

RFC: Using maps as sources which ended in consensus for: "Source information does not need to be in text form—any form of information, such as maps, charts, graphs, and tables may be used to provide source information. Routine interpretation of such media is not original research provided that there is consensus among editors that the techniques used are correctly applied and a meaningful reflection of the sources."

If anyone has any other interesting and useful policy/essay/RFC whatever links, feel free to add them. But please don't move the conversation to under this comment.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 19:16, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Speederzz, How can you have concession among editors when some people for their own mysterious reasons don't accept the international borders that are Legal, Bidding and show clearly the Delimitation of the Greek Albanian Borders? Primary sources from Albania's Military and Civilian authorities and also from the Greek one should clearly clarify the location of Lake Gistova as they are posted on this site. Please elaborate on this matter. The sun rises from the east and sets from the west. Facts are Sacred comments are Free. Thank you, Aetolia Aetolia (talk) 00:37, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

If you would actually read what I've linked you would see that you can use maps as sources. However I would prefer if we kept the discussion in one place, that being the thread above.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 07:15, 12 May 2025 (UTC)

Can someone fix the map citations.

Bare urls and a reference that refers to unlinked maps should be fixed. I am at work so I don't have much time, but I recommend using Template:cite map when fixing it. Template:cite web might work but is a lot less appropriate in my opinion, since it's not the page we're citing but the map on the page.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 07:18, 6 June 2025 (UTC)

Done – Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:41, 14 June 2025 (UTC)

Please I would like to add that they are starting again the same revisionism concerning the location of lake Gistova or Garmozit or Gramoz or Gistove as it is widely known. Its the same Glacier Alpine lake. That takes place in the Albanian page using unidentified bots. I edited, again the article but they have my review as pending? Is that real? I site primary sources on my discussion but they just change the page again and again. Please, I need assistance on this matter from any administrator that can help on thismatter. They cannot use revisionism when facts exist. Certain people try to play revisionist games by changing International borders. Thank you for your attention, Aetolia. I am amazed that they use the pending review postponement game on the Albanian site. I need urgently assistance on this matter. Aetolia (talk) 17:30, 23 May 2026 (UTC)

(This was send to Albania administrator on the Albanian site that it seems approved the anonymous edit? )

Greetings Mr. Klein Meci

Lake Gistova or Gramoz or Gramozit which happens to be the same Lake under different Albanian names happens to be part of the Hellenic Republic. It is not shared with Albania and has already been adjudicated in Wikipedia as Lake Gistove/Garmozit/Gramos just by using Albanian Primary and Official Sources only which are also under the Jurisdiction of the Albanian Prime Ministry. Lately, have seen bots or unidentified person changing the border reality on this matter on the Albanian version of Wikipedia. Actually you have reviewed a change like that on April 24 , 2026 and was approved by you? If it was not approved by you I apologize in advance. Please redress this matter quickly as it was original sighted in the Albanian Wikipedia page. Additionally, I have already informed and reported this matter on Wikipedia on as well and I am looking an answer on this topic. Border revisionism should not be allowed. Clearly the Albanian Military Topographic Institute and the National Territorial Planning Agency of Albania both confirm the lake is not in Albania

ALBANIAN Governmental Agency

https://akpt.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=ff270e99f5be45f19c7b7a1e3e618b27 Here as well the official Albanian map shows clearly where the Lake Gistova lies.

Institutin Topografik të Ushtrisë

Official Albanian Military Topographical maps: You can zoom in, very easy

https://shop.geospatial.com/publication/38PCREFVGPMH4RPD0MSAVZHMV6/Albania-1-to-100000-Scale-Topographic-Maps

Official Geodetic Consensus (AKPT / ASIG) — Resolving the Dispute Status

Dear Administrators, Daniel Case, and editors,

I am posting this new section to formally request the permanent removal of the "geopolitical dispute" designation for Lake Gistova / Gramozit (Coordinates: 40.334145, 20.785012).

While there has been extensive back-and-forth debate on this Talk Page regarding commercial map renderings and secondary articles, the core Wikipedia policies regarding Verifiability (WP:V) require us to prioritize official, law-backed public mapping authorities. An absolute bilateral state consensus exists on the ground, proving that no actual international border dispute exists over this asset:

1. The Albanian State Authorities (AKPT & ASIG): The official National Territorial Planning Agency of Albania (AKPT), operating directly under the Office of the Albanian Prime Minister, explicitly maps the international land boundary along the ridge line watershed via its official ArcGIS Geoportal (Item ID: ff270e99f5be45f19c7b7a1e3e618b27). This framework, along with the State Authority for Geospatial Information (ASIG) and the Albanian Ministry of Defence (IMIG), layers the frontier cleanly above the terrain, leaving the lake asset entirely outside the administrative borders of Albania. 2. The Greek Military Standard: This matches the definitive geodetic baselines and 1:50,000 topographic series utilized by the Hellenic Army Geographical Service (HAGS). 3. Global Cartographic Consensus: This baseline is verified by the historical sheets of the US Army Map Service (AMS Series M506), British War Office GSGS 4439, Soviet General Staff GUGK (Sheet K-34-126), and the 1968 Polish Military Topography Service records.

Because the premier spatial planning agencies, defense ministries, and prime ministerial data platforms of both countries are in absolute technical agreement, classifying this feature as an active "international dispute" or "shared control" is factually incorrect. The friction is entirely confined to individual user accounts conducting unauthorized rollbacks against official state data.

The main article page has already been updated to accurately reflect these official institutional publications from the Albanian Military Topographic Institute and the National Territorial Planning Agency of Albania, noting that the lake is located entirely within Greece. Therefore, I request that tracking administrators close this dispute log as resolved based on this primary-source bilateral consensus.

Sincerely, AETOLIA Aetolia (talk) 19:02, 30 May 2026 (UTC)

Talk:Lake Gistova

Comment

Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2025

The lake is on the border

Useful links for the discussion

Can someone fix the map citations.

Official Geodetic Consensus (AKPT / ASIG) — Resolving the Dispute Status

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