Talk:Mathematician

I cut the following form the article since it is more about mathematics than mathematicians, perhaps some of it could be merged into mathematics:

The publication of new discoveries in mathematics continues at an immense rate in hundreds of scientific journals. In particular, mathematics is not a closed system, in that there is no shortage of open problems; in fact, at any given time, there are infinitely many potential open problems which mathematicians have not stumbled upon. The diversity of mathematics also allows for problems, which, in certain contexts, may not be solved or are undecidable in particular theories!

Recently, an important problem in the field of number theory was resolved by the mathematician Andrew Wiles; this is known as Fermat's Last Theorem. The problem remained open for approximately 350 years making it one of the oldest problems in the history of mathematics.

Another recently resolved important problem, in the field of differential topology, is the Poincaré conjecture. Like Fermat's Last Theorem, this conjecture withstood 100 years of attempts at its solution, but was eventually resolved by Russian mathematician Grigori Perelman in 2003. A peer review was completed in 2006, and the proof was accepted as valid.^[1]

The Poincaré conjecture belonged to a larger class of open problems (prior to its proof) known as the Millennium Prize Problems. These problems concern such diverse fields of mathematics such as algebraic geometry, algebraic number theory, differential geometry, theoretical computer science and so forth. For any one of these problems, there is a US$1,000,000 award for its solution. However, many mathematicians consider the prestige to be of a greater value than the actual sum of money.

There is a a lot more like it that needs removing in my view. Paul August ☎ 19:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I wrote that content at some point. My point of view is that "mathematics" and "mathematician" are connected, and thus one cannot mention one without mentioning the other (as an analogy, consider "axiomatic set theory" and "set-theoretic topology" :)). For instance, should the article cover some famous mathematicians in the past, or should the article also consider what mathematicians, in general, do? I feel that both ideas should be a fundamental part of the article, but the former is certainly the most important. However, when I added the content under the current "motivation section", I kept in mind the section title, and as such described "mathematics" in relation to "mathematician". Do you think that some of this content should be merged into mathematics instead? If so, feel free to do that. With regards to the above content, I actually mentioned "mathematician" in the last three paragraphs, although not to a significant extent. As such, I do not think (correct me otherwise) that there is mention of either Andrew Wiles or Grigori Perelman (who are famous mathematicians). Could you please expand slightly on your point? Cheers, --PST 03:54, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi PST. Yes obviously "mathematics" and "mathematicians" are interrelated. And yes, the article should (and does to some extent) "cover some famous mathematicians" and "consider what mathematicians, in general, do". Perhaps some of the content above about Wiles and Perelman, as "famous" present day mathematicians could be reworded to be more from a "mathematician" slant than a "mathematics" one, and so retained in the article. This might help dispel the naive notion that all of mathematics is already known. Let me give that a try.

By the way reading some of the discussions above I see that a few other editors have expressed similar concerns to mine. For example immediately above in the section "Article Is In Sorry Shape", Jaimeastorga2000 says: "There is too much about mathematics and too little about mathematicians here" and suggests that we should look at Scientist for ideas on improving the article. That seems like a good idea to me. Also in the section "Rewrite" an editor complains that "most of the sections on the article focus on mathematics, as opposed to mathematicians" and lists a series of specific issues to be addressed. All of which seem worthy of consideration. I might also try to give some attention to these.

Regards, Paul August ☎ 18:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone else have a problem with the definition of applied mathematician given in the intro:

     Conversely, some mathematicians may provide insights into other fields of research—these people are known as applied      
     mathematicians.

Ignoring the fact that it is not a mathematic use of the word conversely, I would say that many mathematicians who are not applied mathematicians have provided insight into other fields of research, many of them posthumously. Isn't an applied mathematician someone who does applied mathematics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.91.213.146 (talk) 20:41, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of problems with the introduction. This foolish article lacks any discussion of applied mathematics and applied mathematicians. Until that mistake is fixed, there should be no discussion of applied mathematics in the lede.

It is bizarre that this article has a whole section on category theory and foundations and nothing on applications.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I referred to a 1990s study of research mathematics in the USA, which found that the majority of academic authors of MR-reviewed papers were in departments outside of mathematics. This study was referenced by the outside review of USA mathematics around 2000, by a panel that included Lennart Carleson, which I assume is known to full professors and other sufficiently wizened.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I expected an article about the "hardest" of the hard sciences to have a lot less subjective generalization than this one does (specifically, the "Motivations" section). For one thing, I doubt the section describes the motivations of every mathematician (if so, that definitely deserves a reference), so it would be nice to know where these described motivations are coming from, to get a sense of how well they can be expected to describe any given mathematician. For another thing, leaving aside the point about the section as a whole, there are multiple factual statements made in the section that should be cited, for example, "However, among academic mathematics, the majority of mathematical papers published in the United States are written by academics outside of mathematics departments." --Spameroo (talk) 02:20, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

please discuss. i dont' think a hindu 'god' has any place as a notable mathematician. i know lots of these guys believe these hindu gods are teh founders of math, which i don't agree with.

plus, having someone filed under Wiki's 'chapter on HINDUISM' is pretty off in my opinion. math isn't associated with any religion, and i don't think ANY prominent mathematician on the page is filed under a wiki series on a religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.213.121 (talk) 07:42, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I see nothing in Baudhayana or Aryabhata that refers to them as Hindu gods. The edits by Shakerb did not appear to me to claim them as the founders of math. The articles themselves have sourced information on the mathematical works of these 2 mathematicians. Both are linked significantly throughout mathematics articles. There are even articles on their discoveries, named after them, Āryabhaṭa numeration, Baudhayana sequences. While there are issues with the potential eventual length of a section called "Notable Mathematicians" as the inclusion criteria is poorly defined, I see no reason to exclude them specifically. ― Padenton|✉   16:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Baudhāyana, (fl. c. 800 BCE)[1] was the author of the Baudhayana sūtras, which cover dharma, daily ritual, mathematics, etc. He belongs to the Yajurveda school, and is older than the other sūtra author Āpastamba.

if you follow the wiki links, you'll see the following:

The Yajurveda (Sanskrit: यजुर्वेदः yajurveda, a tatpurusa compound of yajus "sacrificial formula" and veda "knowledge") is one of the four canonical texts of Hinduism, the Vedas. Estimated to have been mostly composed c. 1200–1000 BCE (see below), the Yajurveda Samhita, or "compilation", contains the liturgy (mantras) needed to perform the sacrifices of the historical Vedic religion, and the added Brahmana and Śrautasutra add information on the interpretation and on the details of their performance.

The Vedas (/ˈveɪdəz, ˈviː-/;[1] Sanskrit: वेद véda, "knowledge") are a large body of texts originating in ancient India. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism.[2][3]

would this not be considering someone such as baudhayana to be a deity of sorts? i'm not hindu so i cannot say for sure, but it sure seems to me this individual is revered and is viewed as a prophet. isn't that a reasonable inference, given the text above?

if indeed these texts originated in 1200BC, i would argue babylonian mathematics is more important than this individual. since i'm a bit lazy to alt-tab back to the page and see if they're there (i think they are), i do not see what the addition of baudhayana adds. furthermore, his work on approximating pi wasn't significant enough to earn inclusion of his name (which i think is supposed to be aryabhata, who is on that list of people, and thus i don't even know if that tooltip/toolbox thing belongs on bhaudyana's page).

further, the contributinos of aryabhata are somewhat controversial, evidenced by this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80ryabha%E1%B9%AD%C4%ABya):

it has been suggested by some commentators, most notably B. L. van der Waerden, that certain aspects of Aryabhata's geocentric model suggest the influence of an unknown, underlying heliocentric model.[2][3] This view has been contradicted by others and, in particular, strongly criticized by Noel Swerdlow, who characterized it as flatly contradicting Aryabhata's own words.[4][5]

to me, it seems a lot of the things claimed by ancient indian mathematics is highly disputed. if you see my edit on the history of mathematics page, i quote boyer edition 1 verbatim which states it's very hard to find conclusive proof to give basis to much of the claims of indian mathematics.

this situation is further exacerbated when boyer states that some claimed that indian mathematics discovered things 2,000,00 years ago (again if you see my history of mathematics discussion, it's there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_mathematics)

i would be much happier putting Dr Rao (who is still alive) over any of these current additions. he is a great mathematician and he was actually a heavy influence on me. comparatively speaking, given the clear disputes surrounding importance of ancient indian mathematics, i believe it's easier to make a case for dr rao (who, in my opinion, is an equal to ramanujan at the very least) than it is for these.

what do you think? 174.3.213.121 (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

User:115ash, who has been blocked repeatedly, is behaving very oddly. He has taken out noted mathematicians like Hilbert. Someone with more time might reverse this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uselessnogood (talk • contribs) 09:06, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

The ones he put in are mostly Italian. Those taken out are mostly or all non-Italian. 115ash has already been banned for patriotic peacockery. Most of his efforts have been reverted by Alessandro57, but not all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uselessnogood (talk • contribs) 09:09, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

He uses dishonest edit summaries like "fixes". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uselessnogood (talk • contribs) 09:12, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

As I contemplated repairing the damage done to this section by recent edits (see above), it occurred to me that I would only be using my own sense of who the most notable mathematicians were. There are individuals who I think should be listed and others who I don't see any reason to list. I am sure that other editors would have different takes on these lists. I see a need to have some criteria for inclusion in this gallery, perhaps something like having more than x amount of space devoted to them in some general History of Mathematics tome or having to appear in the top twenty of someone's greatest mathematicians list. Having such a criteria would be in the spirit of WP since it would not be a judgement call on the part of editors as to whether or not someone is included. Another concern that I have is whether or not the quality of a person's mathematics should be the sole factor in determining their notability. For instance, I would keep Fibonacci on this list, but not because of his mathematical contributions which are paltry, but because he was so influential in opening up Europe to the influx of Hindu-Arabian mathematical ideas. I would also keep Agnesi, again not due to her mathematics, but as a woman writing a very influential textbook that spread and popularized the concepts of calculus. These are people whose notability is grounded in what they did for mathematics as a field and I believe that they need to be recognized for this as well as those whose mathematical contributions were seminal. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 04:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

In almost two weeks this has drawn no comments, so I will be bold and implement an idea mentioned above. We currently have about 40 names and pictures in this section (20 of each). I think that this is about the right number, maybe we can let it grow to 50, but not more. As a basic criteria I will use inclusion in James Dow Allen's list of the "Greatest Mathematicians of All Time". He has listed 150 names at Greatest Mathematicians. I will now prune our listing to remove anyone not on that list. I think that anyone in the top 30 of that list should be an automatic inclusion in ours and that would still leave plenty of room for editors to express their own favorite choices. (Note that with this criteria, Fibonacci would be in, but Agnesi would be out.) Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 04:49, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I have added Paul Erdős to the list. As he is not in the top 30 of Allen's list (he's #115) I should justify this inclusion. As the most prolific author of mathematics (nearly double the number of publications of the former holder of this record – Euler) his place should be assured, but I have other reasons for including him. Erdős represents an extreme among mathematicians. He lived, breathed and ate mathematics 24-7. He did not have a job or a permanent address, but rather continuously traveled around the world visiting mathematicians for a few days and then moving on. There are very few living mathematicians that do not have a finite Erdős number (distance from Erdős in the co-author graph). He has had books written about him and his mathematics and even a film made about him. I do not consider him to be a role model, but rather an example of how far one can go in the pursuit of mathematics. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 20:18, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As you've mentioned, I am going to add legends like Fibonacci and Agnesi. I am also going to add Cardano and remove Euclid, as he is already included in the infobox. Nevertheless, I'd keep also keep lovelace, Peano and Aryabhata. --115ash^→(☏) 10:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I have seen the part entitled "Notable mathematicians" and I am surprised that Stefan Banach has not been mentioned there.

Banach is listed at #58 of Allen's list. Would you care to make an argument for his inclusion? Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

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A mathematician is someone who uses an extensive knowledge of mathematics in his or her work, typically to solve mathematical problems. Mathematics is concerned with numbers, data, quantity, structure, space, models and change. Add, plz url "change" to "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus" Thanks! Mgreat (talk) 19:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Done Altamel (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I recently changed a contested paragraph in the history section. The first sentence of which talked about the Rennaissance and the second listed some mathematicians with other occupations. True, the listed examples were all Italian and it is generally agreed that the Rennaissance did start in the italian peninsula, but that superficial commonality is the only thing that links the two statements. The essence of the paragraph is that mathematicians had other professions and the only reason that the Rennaissance is brought up in connection with that statement is due to the fact that prior to the Rennaissance the concept of "having a profession" did not make much sense. I've altered the paragraph to imply this and added some names to show that it was a European phenomenon. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 19:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

There were certain mistakes on those sentences. I've just fixed them. --115ash^→(☏) 09:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, I've just changed this, which seems much better.

@Bill Cherowitzo, there were even some mistakes on the University section, which have been fixed now. I believe that there must something about Italian Universities, (such as Bologna or Rome), as many of them are oldest ones. What do you think? Let me know. --115ash^→(☏) 09:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I've reinstated the list of notable mathematicians but placed it after the picture gallery. The list was certainly not redundant as there was no overlap. I think the list is needed because I would not like to see the picture gallery get much larger than it already is yet I would like the total listing to be large enough so that different disciplines, cultures and ages are represented. I also found your edits to the Rennaissance paragraph to be problematic. The parenthetical statements should indicate the "other profession" that these mathematicians were engaged in, as that is what the sentence is about. Identifying them by their mathematical accomplishments is not to the point. I had left Pacioli untouched in my edit since I wasn't sure that I wanted to say that being a member of the clergy was a profession, but if we don't say that, then he should probably be removed. I have not changed this back for now. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Bill Cherowitzo, what about the university section? Also, can we add Lovelace? --115ash^→(☏) 08:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

What would you like to say about the universities? I would not support Lovelace; she's a stretch as a mathematician and doesn't make the top 150 list. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 05:45, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

@Bill Cherowitzo , I'd like to say something about Uni of Bologna and Sapienza of Rome, as they're the world's oldest institutions.

Besides being old, what is their significance with respect to the topic of this page? If there is no significant relationship with mathematicians, there is no reason to mention them. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 22:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Instead of that "notable mathematicians" section, why don't we create a new collage and label it on the infobox? I think this would be a better idea and it will certainly stop vandals. --115ash^→(☏) 09:52, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of infoboxes, and they are certainly not the place to put long lists of things. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 22:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

But I believe that a collage for this article will be very useful. Shall I create one like this? --115ash^→(☏) 14:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

There are a couple of problems with the montage idea. The most important for me is that the image selections are controlled by only one editor and to make a change you have to create a whole new montage. This runs counter to the basic idea of Wikipedia - that it is a collaborative effort that anyone can contribute to. I'd like to hear what other editors have to say. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 02:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Let's wait. --115ash^→(☏) 14:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Considering the amount of screen space it takes up, I don't think the current picture gallery of historically notable mathematicians is an improvement to the article. The pictures achieve nothing in explaining to the reader what a mathematician is, perhaps apart from illustrating that it is an ancient vocation. Tayste (edits) 01:51, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

The very concept of a section on "notable mathematicians" is prone to constant tinkering (at best) and bickering (at worst). Abandon the idea of a "who's-who", and make this article about the history and nature of the profession. "notable" people in the profession will come naturally in the progression, and will be in appropriate context. As it is now, I'm tempted to remove the whole section to discourage this lazy sort of presentation of material. -- Netoholic @ 01:56, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree it needs culling. I've seen the same kind of thing in various articles about music. Lists get longer and longer, turning into an example farm. If we need to list notable mathematicians then let's do it with an actual List page and/or Category, not in the article itself. Tayste (edits) 02:14, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Are all Mathematicians a specific type of logician? If so then the parent category of Category:Mathematicians should be Category:Logicians —User 000 name 09:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually, most mathematicians I know (including myself) would consider that an insult. You are confusing the wielder of a tool with someone who studies that tool. That is not a hierarchical relationship, unless you want to claim that everyone who uses logic is a logician. Bill Cherowitzo (talk) 03:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

What would be the reasons for a supposedly insulting categorisation? I am surprised by this statement!--5.2.200.163 (talk) 12:47, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

A truly "mathematical" approach to writing an article about the concept of "mathematician" is to investigate first whether an answer to the question "what is a mathematician?" exists at all. Mathematicians know that attempts to find non-existing answers may occasionally be apparently successfull, although the answer is inevitably nonsensical.

The article demonstrates the problem of defining the "mathematican" by using a circular definition: mathematicans work on mathematics. And mathematics is what mathematicans do, of course. Is mathematics just logical thinking in abstract symbols? The written representation can not be decisive for the nature of mathematics. Take the example of the concept of a "sufficient condition". It can be defined with a formula in boolean variables, and then it "looks like" mathematics But lawyers apply exactly the same reasons if they interpret statutory provisions containing sufficient conditions. But no one calls them "mathematicians" if they do that. This example shows that definting mathematicians is a conventional matter, not a fundamental one. Incidentally, the same problem applies to engineers: prople involved in engineering. Vice versa. Rbakels (talk) 12:47, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

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I think that some data from RS re the employability of math graduates are useful for inclusion in article. Examples , , , ...--5.2.200.163 (talk) 13:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

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I can do Grammer K5gproWiki (talk) 06:15, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 06:21, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

lol i dont like math — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.191.57.85 (talk) 16:37, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Mathematician actually means a machine for turning coffee into theorems(if you know what I’m saying). 112.150.25.221 (talk) 12:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

vedic mathematicians are ancient in the world , pythagoras theorem, number system, zero , geometry was already mentioned in Vedas much much earlier than these mathematicians mentioned. It is time people respect the ones who gave the world these things, mutilating history is extremely disrespectful Kayera (talk) 04:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I removed the "more citations needed" template added in April 2021. The editor who added it is not edited since 2023, so it's impossible to know for sure what prompted the addition of the template. There was one specific sentence which had a citations needed tag. That tag itself was slightly problematic as a sentence had a citation which was a dead link, and rather than follow the usual process of leaving the dead link, and editor simply replace the dead link with a citations needed tag. I tracked down the dead link which could be found in Internet archive, but I chose to use an active link to a better site, rather than "cure" the dead link with the Internet archive link. It's only my speculation that the addition of the article wide "more citations needed" was prompted by the existence of that tag. If so, the problem is cured. It is my opinion that the article wide tag should be reserved for articles with very few citations relative to the length, while using the more specific citations needed tag if there are a few remaining assertions meeting citations.

I won't disagree that a careful reader could find some sentences which could use some citations, but I push back on the notion that the article wide template is appropriate for an article of this length with 25 citations. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:33, 1 October 2025 (UTC)