Talk:Rumspringa

Egged on by the "cleanup" tag on the article, and while reading Shachtman's book, I took a stab at a new introduction with appropriate citations. I also added sections for the remaining body, attempting to leave as much of it unchanged for future edits or collaboration with you all as possible. I'm also hoping the sectioning will inspire more editing and clarification. Owlmonkey 22:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I found the reorganization affirms the rumspringa as factual, as institutional; at the very least, that's in dispute.DavidOaks 05:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, would love to work with you on this. I still think the citations were valuable, the article really could use more of those. Shachtman seems to be describing a phenomenon that is quite observable, but I agree he does not depict it in any way as institutional to the Amish or even sanctioned by elders. My suggested changes were an attempt to honor that point of view as well. Is that what you meant? That's why I only used "some youth diverge" and "generally refers". But these edits sounded like they were too institutional to you. Nonetheless it seems to be both a notable phenomenon and factual in the sense that it is being observed by at least some scholars. How can we rectify that, I'd really love to help clean up the article. Right now it's really rough. Or do you really feel like the whole rumspringa depiction in the references is poor scholarship? I'll include the paragraphs I wrote again here, I'd love your specific thoughts on them. Owlmonkey 06:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, I had some specific issues with the current article language, including the "widespread belief" language. It seems to me that the concept of rumspringa isn't really "widespread" or well known really at all. So "widespread" struck me as odd. I also didn't find any citation in Shachtman at all that described the phenomenon as a "rite of passage". My understanding of that term would mean it were a required social or religious stage for the youth, but the citations I added clearly made the point that less than half of youth in larger amish communities had pronounced changes in behavior during that age range. But I left that language only not to step on anyone's toes in my initial changes. Owlmonkey 06:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Rumspringa generally refers to a period of adolescence for members of the Amish religious denomination - a subsect of the Anabaptist Christian movement - that begins around the age of sixteen and ends when a youth chooses baptism within the Amish church or instead leaves the community.^[1] The vast majority choose baptism and remain in the church.^[2] Not all Amish use this term{{facts=October2007}}, but in sects that do Amish elders generally view this time for courtship and finding a spouse.^[3]

Tweaked the lede; there's no evidence at all that adolescents typically leave the community during adolescence. 150.243.14.35 (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Popularized View (section)

As is the case in many societies, during this period rules may be relaxed and some misbehavior is tolerated. A view of rumspringa has emerged among some scholars and popular culture that this divergence from custom is part of adolescence for Amish youth or a rite of passage. Among the Amish who use this term, rumspringa simply refers to adolescence. During that time a certain amount of misbehavior is unsurprising and is not so severely condemned (for instance, by Meidung or shunning). Adults who have made a permanent and public commitment to the faith would be held to the higher standards of behavior defined in part by the Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions^[4]. In a narrow sense the young are not bound by the Ordnung because they have not taken adult membership in the church. Amish adolescents do remain however under the strict authority of parents who are bound to Ordnung, and there is no period when adolescents are formally "released" from these rules.^[5][6][7]

A minority of youth do diverge from popularized customs of the Amish community.^[8] Some may be found:^[9]

• Wearing non-traditional clothing and hair styles
• Driving vehicles instead of horse drawn buggies (for communities that eschew vehicles)
• Sleeping over in bed courtship with the opposite sex
• Not attending home prayer
• Drinking and smoking

Diverging from community standards may sometimes go beyond the desires of the community, but that is not inconsistent with Anabaptist tenets. In particular it is essential for adults to enter baptism knowingly and informed, and that could mean informed of life outside the strict Amish culture.^[10] Not all youth diverge from custom during this period, approximately half in the larger communities and the majority in smaller Amish communities remain within the norms of Amish dress or behavior during adolescence.^[11]

then a Leaving The Community subsection

then a Variations subsection

then Citations (adding)

• Bowman, Carl Desportes. Brethren Society: The Cultural Transformation of a Peculiar People, 1995 ISBN 0-80184-9055

This looks good to me -- it conveys the key points in an orderly, NPOV way, including the disputed areas. DavidOaks 15:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, going ahead with the changes though trying to preserve all of the original content as much as possible. But inviting further editing and cleanup to meet modern quality standards for the article. Owlmonkey 22:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I really appreciate your willingness to take on the cleanup. Going back in the history of the article, what was tussled out was the difference between recognizing the claim made by non-Amish and non-scholars that adolescent misbehavior was more or less condoned by the Amish -- essentially institutionalized; sensationalized accounts like "Devil's Playground" and "Amish in the City" would I think sufficiently document the "widespread" characterization, and it would be supported by a little googling. The solution was to make the question about the normative quality of the "suspension of rules" the lead-in to the article. An alternative would be to have perhaps a single sentence lead-in the simply states that "rumspringa" is a term used in some AMish comunities to refer to adolescence (Nolt and others are very clear that the term is not universal among the Amish). Then subsections could treat the use of this term in folklore concerning the Amish. At this point, maybe only the phrase -- "During this period, rules may be relaxed and some misbehavior is tolerated" -- tends that way; maybe it needs to go, maybe it needs to be modified with something like "as is the case in many societies." DavidOaks 15:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'm seeing better what you were getting at. It's tempting with a topic like this to emphasize what is popular culture about the term instead of emphasizing that the popular view is only a minority phenomenon and opinion and from the vantage point of the Amish, not characteristic of their culture. So we have an opportunity to be more neutral here than emphasize the popularized account. Sounds good to me. I'll give some more thought to the phrasing. I did find also in Shachtman citations for the Amish viewpoint but he downplays them, perhaps to emphasize the more interesting, minority phenomenon that is not really about being Amish - just being teenagers in a modern world. I like you're idea to lead with the basic term, then have a section on the Amish internal view then a section about the popularized depiction then how about a section on the variations within the different communities? We have a fair number of citations and details on the variation, and I think that would also help neutralize the popularizing. Owlmonkey 21:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've made some significant edits to the proposed intro above. Would love to hear what everyone thinks. Owlmonkey 08:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, after the edits of the last year, are we feeling like this article should have the cleanup tag removed finally? Is there additional major work that needs to be done or should we remove the tag and let the page evolve over time without an entry in the cleanup list? Owlmonkey 02:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Let’s go ahead and remove the tag ~2026-24389-6 (talk) 16:10, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Two weeks have now passed, removing cleanup tag. Owlmonkey 21:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry chap, I think there's a paragraph repeated in two different sections. I was about to introduce a cleanup tag. :)--Thecurran (talk) 08:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

At the end of "Rumspringa in popular culture" paragraph the last sentence states "ABC showed a doctumentary about rumspringa titled the "outsiders" it aired Tuesday june 24." This needs a specific year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.52.133.15 (talk) 06:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

fixed "outsiders" date —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.52.133.15 (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverted Stick figure's edits, because very material facts of authorship which have been present since the beginning of the article have been changed without explanation or source, which often signals vandalism. However, this editor seems to know a lot about the film's director, so these may have been totally legit edits that just need citation. DavidOaks (talk) 17:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not used to edit wikis, but as a native German (with poor English, sorry) let me just say a word to the meaning of "rumspringen", which is common short use for herumspringen. It does not only refer to "around", but my also refer to a bad behavior which annoys you, so you say to this person with the bad behavior: "Ich lass nicht so mit mir rumspringen", in English: "I don't let you let you longer deal with me in that bad way".

I hope this may be help to improve your article; for further questions you may mail me at: 2009@kheck.info.

Klaus Heck Aachen, Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.67.231 (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The first footnote, "please do not 'correct' either the meaning or the pronunciation to standard German", is something that belongs here in the Talk page, not in the article. No article should be telling readers what and what not to do. A footnote explaining the difference between the word and the German word it derives from would be more appropriate, thugh you would need a citation. I am taking the liberty of removing the footnote. Matt Thorn (talk) 01:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

My error -- meant to hit the "hidden comment" button and got the "ref." DavidOaks (talk) 01:51, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The Popularized View section states that Amish adolescents are never formally released from the rules laid out by the Ordnung. However, the following section, Leaving the Community, states that the adolescents are essentially free to experiment. The latter has been added without a citation, but it might be right. One of these needs to be clarified and expanded on and the other should likely be deleted. Are there any experts out there who can decide which one is right? 174.0.56.57 (talk) 01:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the contradiciton. No such phrase as "the adolescents are essentially free to experiment" occurs. They are free to leave the community, but are subject to their parents' authority as long as they remain (the article notes that there is variation in the strictness of parental enforcement). DavidOaks (talk) 02:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

wonder who came up with that wrong translation of the "springen" term (german). it never meant anything other than jump, leap, bounce etc.. but clearly never such thing as "running". linkage: http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&search=springen Suggestednickname (talk) 11:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

The lead says that it's "derived from the Pennsylvania German term for 'running around'" (rather than "from the German term"), so I assume this is a local dialect word. Would be good to have a clear source, though. --McGeddon (talk) 11:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

In fact, the etymology section goes on to say that "In Swiss German as in some German dialects, springe however does - besides meaning "to jump" - also mean 'to run'." Again, an actual source would be good here, but I hope this explains the confusion. --McGeddon (talk) 11:53, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Think of it similarly to the English "bouncing off the wall". What does this describe? Are people literally bouncing off actual walls? Kar98 (talk) 00:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

springen translated as "run" is South German dialect (Franconian, Alemannic German). Regards, _{•  • hugarheimur} 17:19, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

This statement in the lead:

'a youth who dares to attend one of these events before reaching the age of sixteen might be forcefed warm milk from a spoon, as a good-natured reminder to observe the lines of status'

sounds absurdly retarded. I would remove it on the assumption it was some form of lighthearted vandalism if amish tradition wasn't so peculiar. Either way, someone really should confirm this with the cited source.
--K10wnsta (talk) 08:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

You have WP:RS including page number. Depending on the holdings of your local library, and especially if you live in a town with a university, you can look it up yourself. Refusal to believe a thing is not by itself a reason to delete, though an editor might wish to place a confirmation here for the benefit of others who find the statement dubious (though to tell the truth, I have no idea what's doubtful about this very typical folk custom). I do agree it's a level of detail inappropriate to the more general purposes of the lead, and have moved it down into the body of the article. DavidOaks (talk) 13:47, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's the same scholar making the same observation online; he refers to it by the sociological category "boundary maintenance mechanism" DavidOaks (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I do want to clarify that while deletion would not be called-for, the double-checking of things that sound weird is exactly what we need to do to keep the encyclopedia on track -- props to K1Ownsta. 02:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Massgebend (standard form) is how the Amish themselves spell it. In Hochdeutch sp is pronounced like Englisg shp while in northern Low German, and, for example the Bremen and Hamburg dialects, it schp pronounced sp - a common anecdote is Die Hamburger stolpern über einen spitzen Stein -all pronounces s : The Hamburgers trip over a sharp (or pointed) stone. --Kudpung (talk) 07:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

In about a week, without objection, I will be changing citation format away from the precious, distracting, and quaint inlining of citation page numbers^{[1]:182-199,802} to the more^[2] usual^[3] followed by:

1. Smith, John A. (full citation) (no page numbers mentioned)

2. Smith, John A. (full citation), pp. 182-199, 802

3. Smith, p. 282

--Lexein (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

In plain sight 04x06 - "Something A-mish"
Sex Drive (2008) ---> "an Amish community"

As per WP:COUNCIL/AFAQ#Quality scale, if an article fails one of the 6 itemized B criteria, it could be a C. I believe this articles lead is insuficcient to summarize the article, and had already been tagged as such,

This article contains rather substantial sections of content which are unreferenced or inadequately referenced. I see only one refernce citation in the entire "Variations" section. In general, we prefer having at least one, preferably two, citations per paragraph, and from multiple sources as well. The "Etymology" section contains no clear reference citations. Much of the "Popular culture" section is unreferenced. This is particularly problematic because of the length such sections can sometimes get to be. Each of these items should be individually referenced to something other than the pop culture entity itself, to establish that they are sufficiently notable for inclusion. Lastly, and this is admittedly a minor point, the refernce style is at least to my eyes not necessarily clearly transparent. I think some of the early reference citations, which have additional numbers after the citation itself, are referring to the individual pages in the book in question. But I do not see that particular style included in WP:CITE, possibly/probably for the reason of lack of clarity.

Adding additional citations and maybe getting the existing ones to adhere to guidelines, and expanding the lead to better summarize, might well be sufficient to bring it up to B. There may still be concerns about the amount of weight given the popular culture section, but that is a fairly frequent question and more or less one which would probably benefit from additional opinions. John Carter (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Rumspringa, "running around" in Pennsylvania Dutch or, more accurately, Pennsylvania German (as the term "Dutch" used in this context is a variant of the original word deutsch: German) is a noun closely related to the Standard German verb herumspringen meaning "to jump or hop around or about".

"Rumspringa" isn't merely "closely related": it is a dialect form of the identical word. All verbs in German can function as nouns merely by capitalizing the infinitive. Again, the word for this type of "close relationship" is "identity." The parenthetical statement about "Dutch" and German is unnecessary here.

The Standard German term is a portmanteau of the adverb herum (literally: here (her) about (um)) which means "around" or "around here" and the verb springen which means "to jump" or "to skip". However, in Swiss German as in some other German dialects, springen does — besides meaning "to jump" — also mean "to run".

If this is the case, then the number of portmanteaux verbs in German is legion. Rather, it is simply a separable prefix that can be added to any verb of motion or stasis: rumsitzen, rumlaufen, rumlauern, rumblödeln, whatever. The component parts may mean "here" in the sense of being close to the speaker and "um" around, but "herum" indicates random motion within a confined space or just "hanging about." Alemannic dialects indeed use "springa" for "to run" and "gumpa" for "to jump, hop." However, the meaning "to run" is only relevant if one wishes to force this word into the English "running around." The image almost any German speaker would see when hearing "Rumspringen" is small animals gamboling about. Since the Amish are primarily an agricultural community, could this possibly be more relevant than an amateurish attempt at etymology?

In modern Standard German "to skip" ordinarily would be translated with the verb hüpfen, which literally means "to hop". This term/concept also is used as a separable prefix verb, i.e., rumspringen/er springt rum.

Well, it's "hupfen" or "hüpfen" in some areas, but how is this the least bit relevant? And now we get the explanation of a separable prefix verb.

The Pennsylvania German noun Rumspringa was derived by contracting the first component of the Standard German term herum to 'rum and converting the word ending to the Pennsylvania German noun form "a". Such dropping or swallowing of an initial sound (in this case the first two letters he of the first syllable here being dropped to form the contraction 'rum) occurs widely both in colloquial Pennsylvania German as well as many other German dialects, and does not alter the meaning of the prefix/term in any way.

'rum is the standard contracted form of "herum" used in casual spoken German everywhere. It is not a peculiarity of Pennsylvania German. And is it necessary to explain that a contraction — in any language — doesn't change the meaning? The Standard High German infinitive ending is "-en", which becomes an "a" or "e" in every Southern German dialect from Switzerland, Baden, and Swabia and into Bavaria and Austria. It is not a "noun" ending per se.

Apart from Rumspringa's relationship to the Standard German term herumspringen, it also bears close resemblance to the standard Dutch verb rondspringen which likewise is translated as "jumping around".

How thoughtful to include Dutch! But why not Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, and Frisian as well? Again, this is totally irrelevant. --Janko (talk) 02:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, this entire section could be deleted. All relevant information is already included in the brief etymology at the beginning of the article.--Janko (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree. --Peter Putzer (talk) 08:25, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

From my perspective, the Etymology section follows a wrong approach. Rumspringa is not derived from the standard German word herumspringen or its colloquial form rumspringen but from the corresponding words in the dialects of the immigrants. In Palatian, there is the word rumspringe which exactly means "to run around". In this case, the "sp" is pronounced like "schp" in Palatian (and even in Standard German in most regions) - or "shp" to better reflect an Englisch pronunciation. So the Palatian word is spoken like rumschrpringe, which is already one of the variants.

If you then add the fact, that the infinitive ends with -a in Pennsylvania Dutch (which is probably an influence of other southern German dialects like Swabian), the you get rumshrpringa or rumspringa.

Or short: No reference to Standard German is required for the etymology. -- JogyB (talk) 10:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Why is the pronunciation tagged as "dubious--discuss"?

Is it because the accent is placed on the second rather than the first syllable?

The online OED, in an article dervied from the OED 2011 third edition, give the English pronunciations as: Brit. /ˈruːmʃprɪŋə/, U.S. /ˈrumˌʃprɪŋə/, /ˈrumˌsprɪŋə/

The Pa. Dutch pronunciation that is given, [rʊmˈʃprɪŋə] , seems fine to me (a student of the dialect), except for the placement of the accent, which should normally be on the first syllable.

Gambaguru (talk) 09:41, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Hang on a sec: I get it now! There are two pronunciations, identified as "Pennsylvania German" and "Pennsylvania Dutch" respectively -- but those are two names for the same language. Dubious, indeed!

The second pronunciation is correct apart from the accent, as I noted above, due allowance being made for slight regional variation in vowel quality. And it would be well to add an English pronunciation, too.

Gambaguru (talk) 09:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

• I've taken the liberty of removing the dodgy "Pennsylvania German" pronunciation and relabelling the "Pennsylvania Dutch" one as "Pennsylvania German". I wonder about the stress too, but I only know standard German, so for all I know it might be different in dialect. Or it might just be a confusion over where the stress mark goes in relation to the syllable - in IPA it goes before, but the pronunciation notation used in some US dictionaries puts stress marks after the syllable. Hairy Dude (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

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