Talk:Ryazhenka

To avoid a pointless edit war, I'm starting this discussion to clarify its origin. Pre-revolutionary Russian sources called it малороссийская ряженка (from Little Russia, i.e. modern Ukraine).^[1] Later official Soviet food industry books called Ryazhenka украинская простокваша - "Ukrainian soured milk".^{[2][3][4][5][6]} The same is written in modern Russian books.^[7] This shows that it originated in Ukraine and was eventually brought to Russia. Since then it also became a traditional Russian product. The name comes from пряжене молоко (Ukrainian for baked milk)^[8] and not from Russian топлёное молоко. Webpages calling it Russian just learned it from Russia in modern times but they have no idea about its history. In contrast Varenets is a traditional Russian analog.

--Off-shell (talk) 23:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

The following comment by Nswapsj was placed on my Talk page. I move it here:

Hi there, thanks for the edits in Ryazhenka. There are however a number of points that are up for a debate. You cannot specifically indicate country of origin as Ukraine, I understand that various sources would provide conflicting information. The best practice in this instance is to cite both examples. I have updated the origin to Russian and Ukraine. We might debate and add Belorussia to the places of origin as well. Note that a cookbook is not reliable source of information.

Please do not remove good references. Apart from a historical cookbook of tne 19th century, these include many books published by the Soviet Ministry of Food Industry etc. The book "Советская национальная и зарубежная кухня" is not just a cookbook, but also a textbook for Soviet state cookery schools which includes reviews on the ethnic cuisines. In contrast, the sources citing Russia are some blogs, Wikipedia mirrors and those which admit that they did not do any research on that (e.g. kefirgrains.eu with statements like "Russian (some say Ukrainian))". If you found a book specifying its origin in Russia, please provide it (with page number) in addition without deleting the other ones. I didn't find this statement in "Food culture in Russia and Central Asia". Note that Russian oven is a common term for a traditional oven used everywhere in Eastern Europe, i.e. in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. Making in a Russian oven does not mean that it appeared on the territory of modern Russia. Note also that until recently Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire and of the Soviet Union and historically "Southern Russia" may also mean "Ukraine". --Off-shell (talk) 05:59, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

One more hint: you added a reference to A Taste of Russia: A Cookbook of Russian Hospitality for a similar Russian drink called Stewler/Varenets. This book is also a kind of cookbook with additional reviews. Despite its rather extensive coverage of Russian cuisine (including Stewler/Varenets), it does not mention Ryazhenka. I suppose it is because Ryazhenka is considered Ukrainian in Russia (like e.g. varenyky).--Off-shell (talk) 06:45, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

@Off-shell

Ryazhenka is a fermented product, though. As a lactose intolerant person, it's not a variation of baked milk from my perspective. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Debunking Ukrainian origin in favor of Russian/Ukrainian

Off-shell, thanks for your update.

I wouldn’t like to start any edit wars however based on your own references, is clearly stated that Ryazhenka is a baked milk.

1. Пасхальный домашний стол. Блюда к Великому посту и Пасхе, clearly states on page 105 that preparation of Ryazhenka involves baking of milk. To refer to words of your own reference “молоко упарить в духовке” which means to bake milk in the oven. Moreover this reference doesn’t anywhere refer to it being from малороссийя. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2. Your second reference, the Молочная промышленность, is indeed an excellent reference since it is a governmental publication. However it just refers to one version of Ryazhenka as a Unkrainian Ryazhenka. What it basically indicates is that there are a few versions of Ryazhenka, one of these versions is the Ukrainian Ryazhenka which contains as a standard 6% fat. A practical example would be that there is Danish and Australian cheese, Neither Danes nor Australian claim they are inventors of cheese, but there are versions of cheese that are modified in certain countries. Undeniably, there are Ukrainian versions of Ryazhenka and there are Russian versions, possible Belarusian. Nothing in this claims that invention of the product is Ukrainian.
3. I didn’t find any mention to Ryazhenka in Гигиена питания, only general descriptions of acidophilic products. Not sure if I missed something, would be great if you point me to it.
4. Вестник статистики: орган ЦСУ СССР again refers to a version of Ryazhenka, similarly as discussed with Swiss cheese and Jarlsberg cheese. Nothing indicates that Ryazhenka was invented in Ukraine.
5. While Советская национальная и зарубежная кухня does refer to Ukrainian kuchen and includes Ryazhenka as an example, the whole book it talking about Soviet dishes. Example, it refers to Ukrainian borsch, and Kievan borsch and other examples of borsch which leads me to think the book enumerates versions of dishes, including Ryazhenka rather than the place of invention. Nothing in the book states that Ryazhenka was invented in Ukraine.
6. And similarly in other references.

I can give you a large body of research that also indicates that Ryazhenka is Russian but not Ukrainian, while I believe the correct way is to denominate it as invented in both countries. Example

1. I reputable research published in a scholarly magazine (not a cook book). Indicates that Ryazhenka kefir, a Russian style kefir made from cooked milk.^[1]
2. Another research “How Microbiome Impact on the Cardiovascular System” here indicates “Swedish and Finnish fermented milk, Russian ryazhenka and prostokvasha”, which indicates it is Russian if I use your logic. While in this context, I believe it is a Russian version of the drink instead^[2].

I think it would be much more accurate to refer to the drink as invented in East Slavic region. (--end of comment by Nswapsj, moved here by Off-shell)

Hi Nswapsj, I moved your comment down here, to continue the same discussion. It is common on such Talk pages to write the responses below the last comment. Now, going through your arguments point by point:

1. Пасхальный домашний стол. Блюда к Великому посту и Пасхе, page 105. The section itself is called "N97. ТУРЕЦКИЙ КАЙМАК ИЛИ МАЛОРОССИЙСКАЯ РЯЖЕНКА", i.e. "Turkish kaymak or Little Russian ryazhenka". It is indeed fermented baked milk, and baked milk is common for all East Slavic cuisines. But the book calls this fermented variety "Little Russian".
2. Молочная промышленность, page 18, does not mention different sorts of ryazhenka. These are different sorts of prostokvasha (soured milk). The table includes 3 sorts: 1) мечниковская простокваша - Mechnikov soured milk, 2) южная простокваша - southern soured milk, 3) украинская простокваша (ряженка) - Ukrainian soured milk (ryazhenka).
3. Гигиена питания, page 143, top of the page, just below the drawing: "Продукты молочнокислого брожения. Простокваши. 1) обыкновенная ... 2) мечниковская ... 3) украинская (ряженка)...". The book says the same as the previous one.
4. Вестник статистики mentions "Ukrainian ryazhenka" and does not mention any other kind of ryazhenka. In fact all Soviet food industry books used the same classification, which was specified in the State Standard GOST. Ryazhenka was called Ukrainian prostokvasha at that time. Later this addition was dropped, I suppose, because it became common throughout the Soviet Union. In fact, all these sources call it "Ukrainian", and no source mentions any "alternative ryazhenka", "Russian ryazhenka", "Belarusian ryazhenka" or whatever.
5. Советская национальная и зарубежная кухня mentions ryazhenka among a few Ukrainian dishes which became popular in restaurants and canteens all over the Soviet Union. As the other Soviet books, it does not mention any other versions of ryazhenka. In contrast to French, Italian or Swiss cheeses, there are no other regional versions of ryazhenka mentioned anywhere.
6. The sources mentioned by you indeed call it "Russian" or "Russian-style". However, these are recent publications by Western chemists and biologists who never cared about the history of these products. Ryazhenka was virtually unknown in the West until the fall of the Iron Curtain. Only recently they became interested in it, and today they obtain the samples from Russian or Russian diaspora suppliers (like Lifeway Foods mentioned in the 1st ref.). During the Soviet times the common Soviet cuisine became standard all over the country, and virtually everything coming from the former USSR is called "Russian" in the West. So I think the only source we can use are either reviews by food history experts (secondary sources, seem unavailable unfortunately) or historical primary sources.

Looking for the latter, I checked the classical Explanatory Dictionary of the Living Great Russian Language by Vladimir Dal. It defines Varenets, as "вост. топлёнка, топленое молоко, заквашеное сметаной || Сиб. пресное топленое молоко и сливки к чаю, каймак". However, Dal does not mention a milk product called ryazhenka. He only defines "Ряженец м., ряженка ж. - переряженный, окрутник, святочник", i.e. a person in carnival dress. Similarly, until the end of the 19th century, Russian cookbooks, like that by Molokhovets, mentioned varenets, but no ryazhenka. Some modern dictionaries, e.g. Ozhegov, say these are synonyms. I infer from this, that basically the same thing was known in Russia as varenets. There were different local varieties of varenets, and any version of baked milk could be called varenets. The particular variety was called ryazhenka in Little Russia / Ukraine, and when in the 19th century the common cuisine of the Russian Empire started to emerge, it defined this "Little Russian ryazhenka" as a specific variety. Later, this was "codified" by the Soviet state industry standards, such that today there is a fixed industrial recipe for ryazhenka, and another one for varenets. So I propose to add something like this to the Origin section: "Similar fermented baked milk products have been known in Russia as varenets (ref. Molokhovets). While some dictionaries define both as synonyms (ref. Ozhegov), the modern times industry standard GOST distinguishes between the two products specifying somewhat different production processes, variations of fermentation cultures etc. (refs. GOST)" --Off-shell (talk) 00:35, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Off-shell, I am glad that we agree it is baked milk! One issue resolved. we can proceed with the rest.

While your comments make sense, I think you are missing the main point and this is why you are having so many people amending the page. for example

Пасхальный домашний стол. Блюда к Великому посту и Пасхе, you are indicating that it refers to "N97. ТУРЕЦКИЙ КАЙМАК ИЛИ МАЛОРОССИЙСКАЯ РЯЖЕНКА", i.e. "Turkish kaymak or Little Russian ryazhenka". Again this is extremely inaccurate. If a book refers to something as Little Russian or Malorussian doesnt mean it is in fact from there. Example, in your argument itself it indicated, Turkish kaymak. Kaymakis not Turkish, never was and never will be. Look at the kaymak page and you will notice why the inaccuracies in referral to Ryazhenka as Ukanian prevail. Just because Turkey is where kaymak is prevalent doesn't mean it is Turkish. Little Russian is not Ukrain, as much as it is not Russia. Political boundaries and countries shift, but giving one country authority over creative rights of a traditional drink that is enjoyed across a wide area is inaccurate.

The patent of production of Ryazhenka is held in Russia^[3][4],

I understand that you are referring to a number of governmental publications, but non of them indicates that the drink was created, invented or otherwise discovered in Ukraine. All of the references indicate that there is a Ukrainian ryazhenka and I do agree with that, however, and I repeat non indicate that invention is based in Ukraine. As much as you tend to disregard the Western writers and their publications as " Western chemists and biologists who never cared about the history of these products" same can be said about governmental publications of the USSR, which were publishing whatever the leaders told them to publish.

Since there is no definitive source and the place of invention is debated, similar to kaymak it should indicate the area only, such is South Easter Europe, Modern day Ukraine and Russia rather than Ukraine as a definitive location.

I don't think I miss a point. Please check the current content of the Origin section: "Russian and Soviet sources call it "Ukrainian ryazhenka"[6][7] or "Ukrainian soured milk" (украинская простокваша, ukrainskaya prostokvasha)[8][9][10] and attribute its origin to Ukrainian cuisine.[3]" This statement is absolutely correct. The sources 6 and 7 call it "Ukrainian/Little Russian ryazhenka" (I've put the explanation of the term Little Russian into the footnote), the sources 8, 9 and 10 call it "Ukrainian soured milk" and the source 3 attributes its origin to Ukrainian cuisine. You may question the quality of these sources, but this is the best we have. We have no detailed reviews by food historians, we basically rely on the knowledge of people working in the Soviet food industry. You see, I did not put the statement that it definitely originated in Ukraine. The statement is very cautious, it just says "these sources tell this or that". If you think that calling ryazhenka "Ukrainian soured milk" does not mean that it originated in Ukraine, it's up to you. The statement says that the sources 8, 9 and 10 call it "Ukrainian soured milk", nothing more! For most people (and for me too) this is of course an indication that it probably originated there (like Swiss cheese probably originated in Switzerland), but I avoided any interpretation of it in the text. There are no Russian/Soviet sources about other varieties of ryazhenka.

Concerning the distinction between Little Russia and Ukraine, it is very picky. The term malorossiyskiy was the most common for this region until Russian Revolution. You will hardly find any "Ukrainian" dish in the 19th century Russian cookbooks. They always called it "Little Russian". The same logic is used in claiming Ukrainian origin of beet borscht which is a consensus among food historians. See e.g. here: "Since the erstwhile Russian name for beet soup was borshch malorossiyskiy (the former name of Ukraine), it is probable that the development of borscht happened in Ukraine".

A cross-check with Dal's dictionary seems to confirm that ryazhenka was unknown in Great Russia until the end of the 19th century, as this dictionary has the most extensive coverage of the 19th century Russian language including very rare regional dialects.

In any case the internal Russian/Soviet knowledge is more reliable than recent Western publications, but a degree of doubt remains due to the apparent scarcity of historical sources. And I don't think ryazhenka was ever a matter of politics and that some party leaders told them to attribute it to Ukraine. Why should it be a political issue?

I don't understand what you mean by giving "one country authority over creative rights of a traditional drink". What rights do you mean? This section just summarizes the best of our knowledge of the history of this drink. Today, the drink is considered traditional by all East Slavic peoples and nobody challenges this. The first sentence of the lede says that it is popular in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.

Concerning kaymak, it is Turkic in general, and it covers Central Asia, Turkey and consequently countries which were once parts of the Ottoman Empire (i.e. also Balkans etc.) The authors of the 19th century book may have confused Turkish and Turkic, or may be it was not uncommon at that time to use both terms interchangeably. Again, you may question the quality of their statements, but we use these just as primary sources. We just say "this source said that ..."

You mention a patent on some modern process of a drink which should resemble ryazhenka. The original process is an ancient one, it is not patentable. I see no controversy in that some modern process was developed in Russia. Ryazhenka is common in Russia and everywhere in post-Soviet states since at least 50 - 100 years. People consider it their traditional product there. Nearly every big dairy in Russia and Ukraine produces ryazhenka, kefir, prostokvasha etc. However, we know that kefir originated in Caucasus and ryazhenka probably in Ukraine. I don't see a problem with it.

The fact that some editors replace "Ukraine" by "Russia" is not due to bad quality. Unfortunately, there are quite many one-time editors (mostly anonymous IPs) which are motivated by nationalistic ideas, and not by Wikipedia ideals. You may check the history of many articles, like matzoon (endless warring between Armenians and Georgians) or ajvar (Serbians and Macedonians, the "origin" changes on a daily basis in this article). Similarly, despite a broad consensus on the origin of beet borscht and an extraordinary amount and quality of references on that page, some editors replace Ukraine by Russia there too all over again. (I have no personal preferences for Russia or Ukraine. As an example, I recently defended a "pro-Russian" position on a linguistic issue on Talk:Borscht.) In case of ryazhenka, I see a mismatch between the internal knowledge in Russia/Ukraine/post-USSR and the reception outside. This is a quite common issue, as nearly everything which was once adopted in the Russian Empire or the USSR from some ethnic minority becomes "Russian" in the West. Another example of this kind is knish. It was common mainly in Belarus, parts of Poland and of Ukraine in the 19th century. At that time, this area was part of Russian Empire. And now, knish is found in the List of Russian dishes. --Off-shell (talk) 23:04, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

@Off-shell

What you failed to address is, the editors behind Borscht were insisting - back then - that there was one and only notable borscht: the one made of beets. You really shouldn't label people like that; as their counterparts were people who would abrupt any criticism with "per wp:consensus" claim. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 13:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Recently, @RedBull1984: added Russia as one of the countries of origin. After doing some research, not only it is obvious to me that this is accurate, but it actually seems like there's more sources citing Russia than Ukraine. Certainly, omitting Russia as a country of origin seems like a major mistake. JimKaatFan (talk) 00:42, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There's naturally going to be a slight systemic bias in favor of Russian sources because Ukraine was part of Russia during the spread of ryazhenka's popularity and Russia is a bigger country with more publications. Certainly it shouldn't be omitted from the article, but it shouldn't be characterized as Russian in origin when even Russian sources identify it with Ukraine. Ibadibam (talk) 05:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: You yourself added this source. Did you read it? It states: "Nobody knows for sure when and who firstly came up with this unique recipe, but originally it was invented in Ukraine and then spread all over the Slavic region." In fact, most of the Russian sources point to the Ukrainian origin. This was discussed here in detail. --Off-shell (talk) 07:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@JimKaatFan: You also put this quote in reference: "In Ancient Rus they mixed milk with cream in special earthen pots and left them in a stove for hours on low heat until ryazhenka thickened enough." Ancient Rus is the region from which Ukraine, Russia and Belarus developed. Its capital was Kiev, nowadays the capital of Ukraine. How does this statement support the claim that ryazhenka originated in Russia? If you don't know the difference between Rus and Russia, how can you edit such pages? --Off-shell (talk) 07:42, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean, we don't necessarily need to get personal in questioning another editor's competence (after all, we're here to lift each other up and enable the best possible work on the encyclopedia!), but your points about the full historical context are quite right. Ibadibam (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the personal attack was quite unnecessary. Especially when our own article on Kievan Rus' says, in the 2nd sentence, "The modern nations of Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine all claim Kievan Rus' as their cultural ancestors." In other words, if something developed in Ancient Rus', it's just as accurate to say it's Russian in origin as is it Ukrainian. In fact, neither is as accurate as saying "the Rus' people" rather than "Russians" or "Ukrainians". JimKaatFan (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Ibadibam:. I think putting Kievan Rus' as the origin in the infobox is somewhat insuffient. Looking at the map, we see that its territory covered at some periods Ukraine, Belarus and parts of modern Russia. Knowing from all sources that ryazhenka appeared at the territoriy of modern Ukraine (there are 7 sources in the article pointing to Ukraine), the statement sounds less precise than our knowledge. So I would put it like "Kievan Rus' (modern Ukraine)". --Off-shell (talk) 11:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

That sounds like WP:SYNTHESIS to me. The dish developed in Kievan Rus', that's clear from the sources. It didn't originate in the time period when Ukraine existed. This would be like calling Julius Caesar "Italian" just because he was born on the land mass that is now called Italy. JimKaatFan (talk) 17:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

No, it is exactly according to the sources. The source which you found says: "... originally it was invented in Ukraine and then spread all over the Slavic region." The other sources which were already in the article before call it Little-Russian ryazhenka, Ukrainian ryazhenka or Ukrainian soured milk (ukrainskaya prostokvasha) and attribute its origin to Ukrainian cuisine. We have 6 sources calling it Ukrainian and one source calling it Little Russian (which was the name of Ukraine in the 19th century). We do not synthesize it, we follow the sources. --Off-shell (talk)

The problem is, it wasn't called Ukraine yet when Ryazhenka was invented. Ryazhenka far predates the term "Ukraine". Again, it's like calling Julius Caesar an Italian. JimKaatFan (talk) 01:29, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

It is not the same. I looked again into many Russian sources. In looks like it is incorrect to put Kievan Rus' as the place of origin. In fact, the term Rus' is used to describe East Slavic lands for the whole history, especially when talking about the common East Slavic culture. There was no "clear cut" as in the case of Roman Empire. There are many details about it e.g. in Ruthenia article (which is the Latin name for Rus') and in Names of Rus', Russia and Ruthenia. So when Russians talk about "Ancient Rus'" they don't necessary mean the time of Kievan Rus' until the mid 13th century. They can mean e.g. also the East Slavic lands even in the 18th century. In different parts of the region the name was gradually replaced by Russia / Great Russia, Little Russia / Ukraine, Ruthenia. If ryazhenka appeared at the times of Kievan Rus', the Russians surely would not call it Ukrainian. As they don't call e.g. blini Ukrainian. However, tons of Russian sources call ryazhenka Ukrainian. So it surely appeared at the time, when the different regions of Ancient Rus' already separated. It is difficult to find the earliest evidence for ryazhenka production. Some sources (e.g. this and this) say it appeared in Ukrainian villages in the 17th century. At that time there was already a separate ethnical identity which formed at the time of Zaporozhian Cossacks. --Off-shell (talk) 16:31, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I have a hard time accepting the 1700s as "ancient", so the source that uses the term Ancient Rus must be in error. Ibadibam (talk) 21:34, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Russians have varenets, though. Unlike that borscht debate, where one side would substitute the ancient original borscht with more modern and "more popular" one. OkiPrinterUser (talk) 13:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:52, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Ryazhenka or baked milk is popular in Bulgaria too. 100.34.234.175 (talk) 05:39, 31 May 2023 (UTC)