Talk:Sahaj Marg

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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It was proposed in this section that Sahaj Marg be renamed and moved to Heartfulness MeditationHeartfulness Meditation. result: Not moved. This has been open long enough, and I see no consensus supporting the move. The supporting arguments seem to support having a top-level WP:SUMMARYSTYLE article that might flow into both Sahaj Marg and Shri Ram Chandra Mission or to have a massive merge. These can be handled WP:BOLDLY or via a merge discussion instead of a move discussion. If creating a top-level article, it might be beneficial to reference this discussion in the edit summary; however, creating the page should consist of new content and not be a copy/paste move of content from only one of these pages. (closed by non-admin page mover) -2pou (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC) Links: current log • target log This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Sahaj Marg → Heartfulness MeditationHeartfulness Meditation – As per prior discussions on this article and the guidance given by Onel5969, adding a request to delete the redirect in Heartfulness Meditation article and move this page to Heartfulness Mediation. Main reason is, this practice is now popularly known as Heartfulness Meditation. See evidence of this in the discussion below. Xiantec (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 12:08, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Redirecting the current page to Heartfulness Meditation is appropriate. I support this move. There are lots of activities and popular programs conducted under the flagship of Heartfulness these days. For eg, see ^[1], ^[2] etc., where it is obvious Heartfulness is the new brand name of this organization. Xtalline (talk) 15:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The current page is mostly about the organisation Shri Ram Chandra Mission so this title as well as Heartfulness Meditation should be redirected to that title – especially since it is apparently just a "brand name" and not an independent practice at all. There was a fairly extensive discussion about "heartfulness" a few years ago, where I and other editors tried in vain to find sources explaining what terms like "heart-based" and "heartfulness" actually meant (see for instance Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heartfulness). To reiterate a main point from that discussion: if there are multiple independent sources talking about the concept of Sahaj Marg/heartfulness meditation, there could be an article about the practice. But the current article shows no independent notability for the concept, and the same thing applies to previous attempt to move the title; unlike this article, the sources in the new version work, but they do not explain or discuss the concept, and they are not independent. The sources listed above mention the term "heartfulness" but without explaining it in any meaningful manner, and more importantly, they are also not independent. --bonadea contributions talk 07:20, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Bonadea, I agree with you that this article is not suitable for title Heartfulness Meditation, but I do not agree that this article is more about the organization. The main part in this article is the practice section which is very old and kinda poorly written and needs a lot of improvement, and we cannot improve it without actually renaming this because this practice is now popularly known as Heartfulness Meditation which is what most of the references refer to it as. As you say that the attempted new version of the article works better, but links are not independent and they don't explain the term in any meaningful manner. I guess this is where, you and other experienced admins can guide. Following are some points and a few more references, please weigh-in on these:

1. These links are from leading newspapers in India and many of these are written by independent editors, are this not qualified as "independent" ^[3][4][5]
2. President of India quoted the book "The Heartfulness Way" in his speech^[6]. This book is all about the practice Heartfulness and it had been a top seller^[7]. Does it not show the notability of the term and makes it an independent validation, not the book itself which would be a primary source but a mention from the President?
3. The Vice President of India recently inaugurated the Heartfulness Essay Event 2020^[8], and in his speech he made a remark on the term Hearfulness (listen to his speech from 2 to 2:30, this video is published by the official channel of the Upper House of Parliament of India). This underscores the notability of the term.
4. These are some research publications on Heartfulness Meditation in reputed scientific journals - ^{[9][10][11][12][13]}. If you see in the first reference, Section 3.3 describes how this meditation is done, hope this will clarify what heart-based meditation means.

Request other admins and experts to weigh-in, whether all of the above justifies this move request or not. Xiantec (talk) 11:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I am not an administrator. You list 11 references (3-13 in the reference list):

• no 3 is not independent, and is about the organisation, Heartfulness Institute.
• no 4 is about the organisation.
• no 5 and 7 are about a book, as is no 6 (a transcript of a speech)
• no 8 is about a writing competition.

None of these references are would be useful in an article about the concept of "heartfulness".

• no 9 – 13 are actually about the concept, but the actual practice is not explained in any intelligible manner. The section you mention uses the same kind of phrasing that was used in the attempted explanations 5 years ago: "Heartfulness meditation practice asks participants to sit comfortably and gently focus their attention, with eyes closed, on the source of light within the heart. Rather than trying to visualize this, participants were asked to simply tune in to their hearts and be open to any experience that they may have. If their mind wanders, participants were advised to gently redirect toward the heart" (Thimmapuram et al. 2017). Even though this particular article was published after the previous discussion, it is the exact same kind of definition of "heartfulness" as was given then, and it is just as impossible to understand. These articles could not be used to make any kind of claims about the usefulness or health effects of the practices, as is hopefully obvious, and given that they say things like "Heart is the seat of Intellect and wisdom" (Amarnath et al.) I question whether they should be used at all. One good place to raise this question would be the Fringe theories noticeboard.

A couple of things you misunderstood in my previous post: I did not say that the "new" version of the article that I linked to works better, only that the sources in that article are live URLs. The version I linked to was in fact edited by myself to remove the text about the organisation, resulting in this. That was subsequently (and rightly) reverted to a redirect; otherwise, the "Practices Offered" section would have had to be edited down quite a lot, to remove all claims about health effects, and verbiage such as "to affirm the link with divinity inside". --bonadea contributions talk 12:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Re this comment: the practice section which is very old and kinda poorly written and needs a lot of improvement – the practice section is written in a factual tone, and although it supported by primary sources there is nothing wrong with the actual writing (well, I spot a missing apostrophe but that's just a typo). Whether or not it is old is not something I can speak to, but it is in fact the kind of text that is useful here: brief, neutral, and without any instructions or inappropriate claims. --bonadea contributions talk 12:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Bonadea, I looked at the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heartfulness, which was about creating an article on the concept of "heartfulness". This move request is not the same thing. This move request is simply about renaming (or moving) the Sahaj Marg page to Heartfulness Meditation and developing it further. Currently 5 of the 8 links in Sahaj Marg page are broken, 1 is not relevant and another is not live link. Heartfulness Meditation is already existing article and is redirecting to Sahaj Marg, all this move request is about is to swap the redirects and develop the article further, because the practice is popularly known as Heartfulness Meditation and most of current references use this term as opposed to Sahaj Marg. Reference links shared substantiate that Sahaj Marg and Heartfulness Meditation are one and the same thing. This move request is not about creating a new article on a new concept. What is the real issue you are trying to raise here, I am not able to understand? IMO your understanding or the lack of, on the process of Heartfulness Meditation is your personal opinion which you have a right to hold; what is of more value for the article are valid, reliable, secondary refs. I tried to post some earlier, here is another one ^[14]. These are scientific journals from different countries, vetted and peer reviewed, they will not publish anything which does not make sense. All your other points about independent source, need for neutral non biased factual language are well taken and should be adhered to in the new article. Thanks for your inputs, will wait to hear from others as well. Xiantec (talk) 18:25, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear. I understand that it is about reversing the direction of the redirect, but the issue here is that the content of the existing article (and consequently of the proposed new target) is not really sufficient for a standalone article. It would be better to redirect both this title and Heartfulness meditation to Shri Ram Chandra Mission, and merge the description of the practice into that article.What would be the content of a further developed article? What information do you propose to add?--bonadea contributions talk 07:14, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

By the way, Xiantec, I did not realise that you had already declared a conflict of interest with regard to heartfulness meditation/Sahaj marg. It is still the case that you should avoid editing areas where you have a conflict of interest. Given that you have done quite a bit of promotional editing within heartfulness meditation related articles, I retract my question above since I don't want to encourage further such editing. --bonadea contributions talk 13:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Bonadea, To my knowledge I do not have any COI. I do not hold any position with the parent organization, or employed by it or paid for any services. I just happen to know more about the subject and I sincerely want only that information on Wikipedia regarding this subject which is of encyclopedic value and which is complying to WP standards period. Now you please tell, does this come under COI? I admit, that being a relatively inexperienced user and with all the right intentions but not knowing the difference, I might have added some content, which can be seen as of promotional nature from Wikipedia standards. I will be more than happy to be corrected in those circumstances. I know you are a power user and you probably see a lot misuse / abuse in Wikipedia, but PLEASE do not think everyone would be like that. Sometimes words and acts of power users can be intimidating to new users. I stopped edits for several months, after our exchange back in 2018. Yes I practice Heartfulness Meditation, also Mindfulness Meditation and Hatha Yoga, I have a heart and have interest in Heart Rate Variability and associated research and have interest and expertise in Software and Cyber Security, does it mean I can not write on these topics on Wikipedia? Wouldn't it be better if a pilot writes about flying, a base ball player write about Base ball so the information is accurate, authentic and valuable to readers? Xiantec (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I am not a "power user" (in fact, I'm not sure what that term means here?) You have previously declared that you have a COI. Thus, using article talk pages to propose changes (and supporting these changes with reliable sources) is the way to go if you want to propose edits to articles related to heartfulness meditation. --bonadea contributions talk 12:46, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Bonadea, Can you please be specific where / when did I declare I had a COI. If you are referring to this exchange, here too you had suspected that I had a COI and I responded to you on that and in fact stopped edits for couple of months waiting for your guidance; my response mentioned above is essentially the same today. Please help me understand where is the COI, it is an important matter for me to understand & resolve, and I need your help in this. By power user I just meant an experienced user, an expert, which I can see that you are. Xiantec (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

This is not really anything to do with the question of the article name, but we discussed this here and that still applies as far as I am concerned. When you have a conflict of interest, use article talk pages to bring forth your arguments, and in articles where you do not have a conflict of interest, you are free to edit just like anybody else, subject to the same policies as all other editors. --bonadea contributions talk 17:09, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Bonadea, In the discussion here, you have mentioned "Since you do have a conflict of interest as declared on your user page ...". My question to you is, please help me understand where or what in my user page is reflecting a COI? Sorry for being persistent here, but I do need to understand this clearly so I can correct things where needed. Xiantec (talk) 07:46, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Closer comment @Xiantec: I looked at the linked discussion and your user page, and I can't figure out what the potential conflict of interest is, either. It clearly states (and did at the time as well) that your interests apart from work include Meditation & Spirituality (my emphasis), so unless these pages also have a cyber security software department, there should be no COI. -2pou (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Support the move

With available sources on the web, the organization is principally referred as Heartfulness Meditation on the public domain, instead of Sahaj Marg or Shri Ram Chandra Mission, and the organization being one and the same, the page can be renamed Heartfulness meditation. I support this move.^{[15] [16]} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imparado (talk • contribs) 15:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, you suggest that Shri Ram Chandra Mission as well as Sahaj Marg should be redirected to Heartfulness Meditation? That is certainly one alternative that might be worth looking into. Kanha Shanti Vanam also needs to be redirected (that has to happen in any case, regardless of which of the other titles is the redirect target.) --bonadea contributions talk 16:23, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Imparado, I tend to disagree that the organization is referred as Heartfulness Meditation in public domain. In my view the Sahaj Marg practice is referred as Heartfulness Meditation, yeah both are related to the same organization, if that's what you meant. Xiantec (talk) 16:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I would recommend the merger. It would better to have 'Heartfulness' as an umbrella page, with the pages of Sahaj Marg and Shri Ram Chandra Mission to be redirected to Heartfulness. Also, this would help keep topics related to 'Heartfulness' under a single page. This notion is also being corroborated by the listed references found on the given wiki pages as well.-- Imparado (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is all about neutral point of view and not personal views, bias or opinions. When I tried searching with the term Heartfulness ^[17]or Sahaj Marg ^[18]or Shri Ramchandra Mission ^[19], in the NEWS section, there is plenty of activity about Heartfulness only. It looks like Heartfulness is the active organisation here. Maybe in the history of Heartfulness, Sahaj Marg/SRCM were involved as could be seen from the above references. In addition to these, there are also other entities under Heartfulness like Heartfulness Education Trust that is involved in activities other than sahaj marg or heartfulness meditation ^{[20] [21]}. This definitely gives the impression that Heartfulness is a superstructure under which several substructures exist. So, to have Heartfulness as the active organization which has/had links to Sahaj Marg or SRCM or Heartfulness Education Trust etc., may be a correct picture based on evidences across the resources. These shall be decided only on the basis of publicly available data and not based on the thoughts of those who know the history of these organisations. This will preserve the sanctity of wiki. Xtalline (talk) 09:30, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose – The page doesn't even mention the word heartfulness, and it's not clear why Meditation would be capped. If it's the proper name of an org, that org is not mentioned in the artcle, so the move proposal it at least premature. Dicklyon (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

You have a valid point Dicklyon that this page does not even have the name Heartfulness then why move it. Actually if you see above, this whole thing started with a need to update this page and for doing that when we go out to find reliable refs, we see most of the refs available are referring the practice as Heartfulness, so we saw two choices - 1) update Sahaj Marg page with links and refs of pointing to Heartfulness or 2) update the already existing Heartfulness Meditation page with recent content and refs and redirect Sahaj Marg page to that. I thought #2 is more reasonable. Does this make sense and what do you think which option we should take? Xiantec (talk) 08:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

References

1. [1]

   https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/hyderabad/2020/apr/28/so-whats-your-kind-of-meditation-2136629.html
2. [2]

   https://www.newsgram.com/stressed-lockdown-heartfulness-help/
3. [3]

   Somasekhar, M (2020-01-24). "World's largest meditation centre coming up in Hyderabad". The Hindu Business Line. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
4. [4]

   Pisharody, Rahul V (2020-02-10). "Near Hyderabad, 'world's largest meditation centre', inaugurated by President Kovind". Indian Express. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
5. [5]

   Kaur, Amarjot (2018-04-10). "Where the heart is..." WBTV. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
6. [6]

   (Speech) https://presidentofindia.nic.in/speeches-detail.htm?800. Retrieved 2020-05-30. {{cite speech}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
7. [7]

   "HT-Nielsen top 10: Ashwin Sanghi's Keepers of Kalachakra tops best-selling fiction list". Hindustan Times. February 3, 2018.
8. [8]

   "Vice-President launches Heartfulness Essay Event 2020". 2020-09-15. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
9. [9]

   Thimmapuram, Jayaram; Pargament, Robert; Sibliss, Kedesha; Grim, Rodney; Risques, Rosana; Toorensd, Erik (2017-03-31). "Effect of heartfulness meditation on burnout, emotional wellness, and telomere length in health care professionals". Journal of Community Hospital Internal Medicine Perspectives. doi:10.1080/20009666.2016.1270806. PMC 5463663. PMID 28634520. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
10. [10]

    Arya, Narendra Kumar; Singh, Kamlesh; Malik, Anushree; Mehrotra, Rahul (2018-05-05). "Effect of Heartfulness cleaning and meditation on heart rate variability". Indian Heart Journal: 6. doi:10.1016/j.ihj.2018.05.004. Retrieved 2018-10-12.
11. [11]

    Amarnath, Raja; Verma, Ghanshyam; Jenitha, Sugirtha; Rajan, Chitra; Prasanthi, Jaya; Elizabeth, Ani (May 2017). "Improving Sleep Quality through Heartfulness Meditation- Technical Aspects and Benefits" (PDF). International Journal of Health Science & Research. 7 (5): 54. Retrieved 2018-10-12.
12. [12]

    Amarnath, Raja; Prasanthi, Jaya; Sharma, Natwar; Jenitha, Sugirtha; Rajan, Chitra (June 2017). "Efficacy of Heartfulness Meditation in Moderating Vital Parameters - A Comparison Study of Experienced and New meditators" (PDF). International Journal of Medical Research & Health Science. 6 (7): 9. Retrieved 2020-10-12.
13. [13]

    Arya, Narendra Kumar; Singh, Kamlesh; Malik, Anushree (September 2017). "Effect of Heartfulness Spiritual Practice Based Program on Mental And Physical Health Indicators" (PDF). International Journal of Research in Management & Social Sciences. 5 (3): 14. Retrieved 2018-10-12.
14. [14]

    Léonard, Anne; Clément, Serge; Kuo, Cheng-Deng; Manto, Mario (2019-05-14). "Changes in Heart Rate Variability During Heartfulness Meditation: A Power Spectral Analysis Including the Residual Spectrum". Frontiers in Cardiovascular Medicine. 5 (3): 14. doi:10.3389/fcvm.2019.00062. Retrieved 2020-10-12.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
15. [15]

    "Heartfulness meditation for living by heart". https://www.outlookindia.com/. Retrieved 2020-10-20. {{cite web}}: External link in |website= (help)
16. [16]

    Sep 17, TNN /; 2017; Ist, 11:34. "Over 300 trees uprooted for road widening get new lease of life in Kanha Shantivanam | Hyderabad News - Times of India". The Times of India. Retrieved 2020-10-20. {{cite web}}: |last2= has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
17. [17]

    https://www.google.com/search?q=g+heartfulness&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIN772IN772&sxsrf=ALeKk001rlnnzVXFWCPxw59yxyVlZOjf8w:1605248959150&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjovfGv8v7sAhWizDgGHY3zD0MQ_AUoAXoECAYQAw&biw=1229&bih=532
18. [18]

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enIN772IN772&biw=1229&bih=532&tbm=nws&sxsrf=ALeKk01DvduZ4NbVlcoFyirRmTNH1lFgVA%3A1605248961373&ei=wSeuX_64Fu_G4-EPiZ2WsA4&q=g+sahaj+marg&oq=g+sahaj+marg&gs_l=psy-ab.3...37238.38772.0.39793.10.9.0.0.0.0.172.852.0j6.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..4.2.262...0.0.vuf5-VFiWIY
19. [19]

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enIN772IN772&biw=1229&bih=532&tbm=nws&sxsrf=ALeKk032ARnhoZkDbUSR6n1QkY6GRnhQzg%3A1605249001878&ei=6SeuX_OJNcmd4-EP2-6RoAY&q=g+shri+ram+chandra+mission&oq=g+shri+ram+chandra+mission&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i10k1.24653.27571.0.27828.24.18.0.0.0.0.291.2828.0j9j5.14.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..10.3.582...0.0.0RcYHkooF-E
20. [20]

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/football/top-stories/aifc-ties-up-with-heartful-education-trust-to-help-football-coaches-learn-to-coach-with-the-heart/articleshow/78663888.cms
21. [21]

    https://indiaeducationdiary.in/vice-president-of-india-launches-heartfulness-essay-competition/

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.