Talk:Swords, County Dublin

Not sure if the following under Modern Swords is meaningful or encyclopedic, especially the schools bit, which seems to have been written to "explain away" the "disadvantage tag", edited, and then edited again to stress the disadvantage issue:

As such, it might be said that the town never experiences full-scale middle-class, neither does it experience any major problems associated with large-scale disadvantage.

The fact that two of the towns' four secondary schools are designated as disadvantaged^[1] (St. Finian's C.C. and Fingal C.C.), and the other two (Loreto College Swords and Colaiste Choilm) are not, shows how complex the social mix is.

I have put the explanation of the VEC term disadvantage in a reference, as it is just one body's term, not an absolute. 217.213.75.145 08:18, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removing a sentence in the 'housing' section referring to the location of social and private housing estates next to each other. It seems to suggest that social exclusion does not exist as a result of this. This is subjective and not encyclopedic. Many thanks, Vincent Richarv2 (talk) 11:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, i have again removed a line from this section regarding the location of local authority and privately owned housing estates. The paragraph was not encyclopedic, Richarv2 (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2009 (UTC) Vincent

I've removed the Links to Roganstown, and "Swords" Open Golf Club as they add nothing to the Article and are Merely there to advertise the two Golf Courses (Owned by the Same Family), besides the only Golf Courses in Swords itself are Forest Little and Swords Open, Roganstown is Part of Ballyboughal. Stabilo boss 10:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Roganstown own website http://www.roganstown.com/roganstown_location.php seem to think they are in Swords. What makes you think it is Ballyboughal???

• • Roganstown is a townland in the Parish of Ballyboughal, Advertising it as "Swords" makes it easier to Sell for the owners. It is bordered By Skiddoo (Ballyboughal) Lispopple (Rolestown) and Saucerstown (Swords). The Phone Number (Allocated by Exchange, Which is set down by the Local Exchange, definded by P&T, the forerunners of An Post and Telecom Eireann, is 01 8433 xxx which is the phone no. for the Ballyboughal / Oldtown Exchange. If it were in Swords they would be allocated a Swords No. Roganstown I'm afraid is in Ballyboughal. see Fingal County Council Map The Green area is Swords the Blue is not. Besides the Main reason I deleted the reference was because it was SPAM. Wikipedia is not an Advertising Platform. Stabilo boss 15:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm Removing the Link to Swords Open Golf Course again. Advertising has no Place on Wikipedia. Stabilo boss (talk) 09:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This badly needs improvement. I was driving from the airport this morning and I saw a massive ruin on a hill so I drove up to find it and came across a housing estate called 'Abbeylea' which very helpfully had the Irish name on it, An Mainistir Liath, so I presume from that that the abbey was for the grey friars? Also, what's the background to Swords castle and its current renovation, which seems very extensive? Where are the local history buffs!? 86.42.96.251 (talk) 17:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a point after my own heart, and while I am from the wrong part of Dublin to add much myself, I am sure there must be more about the town, the old monastery, the famous convent of Grace Dieu which once existed nearby and is mentioned in several historical novels, incidents during rebellions, past industries including the mill which once stood in the centre of the town, and so on. Twilson r (talk) 11:33, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The Demographics section is too big compared to the rest of this page. I am suggesting that it is moved into a new page called Demographics of Swords. Does anyone have any problems with this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.79.214 (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

This article is growing nicely, while one or two sections need work. But the lead picture is rather dull, so perhaps someone would have a good shot of Main Street, or Swords Castle, or one of the nice parks? Twilson r (talk) 13:35, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the population of Swords. It is very frustrating to the people of Swords, but the truth is that the Central Statistics Office got it wrong. For some reason, they excluded the Holywell and Drynam estates and listed them as a separate town called Kinsealy-Drinan. I contacted the CSO about it and they referred me to page 44 of the document below: It explains that the two areas are called census towns and that their borders are extended using a rule of 100 metres between buildings. However, the census towns of Swords and Kinsealy-Drinan are closer than 100 metres at several points and should have been ammalgamated under this rule. When I pointed this out I was told that the information had been "signed-off, published and issued" and that "Kinsealy-Drinan will not be made a part of Swords before the next census".

According to Fingal County Councils Development Plan their Swords Development Boundary includes Holywell and Drynam: (red dashed line is the development boundary) and according to the Geodirectory Holywell and Drynam are part of Swords:

This article is about the entire town of Swords, not just the census town. We can't ignore the fact the Holywell and Drynam are certaintly part of Swords.Royboymaps (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

If the CSO has got it wrong, I'm sure that they will correct it in good time, retrospectively even. Meantime, their word is gospel. To do anything else would constitute WP:Original Research. It's not for us to tell the CSO that they got it wrong. Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:14, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

There is still a lot of confusion over the population of Swords, and which areas the different figures refer to. The CSO's sapmap viewer clearly shows the outlines of each area and the population within each. Urban areas are listed as "Towns/Cities (Settlements)". The borders of the developed area of Swords are defined in map 8 of the Fingal County Development Plan as a dashed red line. Both the Swords and Kinsealy-Drinan Census towns are within this border. This means the the total population of the urban/developed area of Swords is 42738(36924 from Swords census town, 5814 from Kinsealy/Drinan census town). Electoral divisions are for legal reasons and do not show the populations of urban areas. Royboymaps (talk) 22:02, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Why are the population figures constantly being changed. This article is about the town of Swords, which for the resons listed above has an urban population of 42,738. The wider electoral division does not have a population of 36,924. The town actually covers parts of 7 different electoral divisions. Anyway, electoral divisions are only for legal reasons and do not show the size of a town. Royboymaps (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

According to GeoDirectory, the full address of Dublin Airport is Swords, Co. Dublin. Geodirectory is Ireland's official address database and is maintained by Ordnance Survey Ireland and An Post. It is used by the Central Statistics Office and the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government. If it says that Dublin Airport is in Swords, then we have to follow this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.95.31 (talk) 11:37, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

There is no such thing as an "official address database". There is a database that was compiled by a private company - An Post. It has no official status. Who says that it is used by the CSO? The OSI is the state's official organ for mapping. Logainm is the state's official organ for designating placenames. Both agree that the airport currently sits on 4 townlands. None of these townlands is in the parish of Swords. Swords is in the Barony of Nethercross. Of the four townlands, Collinstown is the location of the old central terminal buiding (OCTB) while Coultry and Huntstown cover most of the area of the main runways. All 3 are in the civil parish of Santry. The modern terminal buldings (T1 and T2 as they are currently designated) lie in the townland of Corballis which is in the civil parish of Cloghran. Both parishes (Santry and Cloghran) are in the Barony of Coolock. So how can the airport be in the Barony of Nethercross then? The "official" website of the DAA, who ought to know about such things, gives the following as their address "Head Office, Dublin Airport, Co Dublin". To contact Aer Lingus, write to Aer Lingus Media & PR Department, Head Office Building, Dublin Airport. No mention of Swords by either of them. Yet letters miraculously arrive there. Go figure. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:55, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

You call OSI "the state's official organ for mapping" yet you don't consider the GeoDirectory official, which OSI maintain. Townlands, parishes and baronies are historical, and have no relevance today. Today, we use Small Areas, Electoral Divisions, Local Electoral Areas, Constituencies and Post Towns. Dublin Airport is in the Swords Local Electoral Area and the Swords Post Town. Swords is not usually used on addresses in Dublin Airport, but this is because it isn't needed. Everybody in Ireland knows where Dublin Airport is, you don't even need to tell them which county!

The GeoDirectory was used by the CSO for the 2011 census to map each dwelling enumerated. The information received from enumerators was also used to update the database. I was an enumerator myself in the last census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.64.161 (talk) 21:28, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

GeoDirectory is a product that An Post sells. It's not an OSI product. It has no official imprimateur. You mention lots of geograpghical entities. What's your point? Are you saying that Dublin Airport is in Dublin North (Dáil Éireann constituency)? That's true but not particularly useful. Are you saying that Dublin Airport is in Swords Local Electoral Area? That's also true, but no such page exists. And even if it did exist, it wouldn't be particularly useful. Are you saying that Dublin Airport is in the Swords Small Area? That's not true. DAP is near Swords, no more. As for historical, when planning permission for T2 was sought, it's address was defined using townlands and baronies. So they're still used and legal. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:11, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

As a user and occasional editor, I do not understand the point - but this issue, and earlier claims of Swords as the largest town in Ireland (a title many also claim for Tallaght), seem attempts to "boost" Swords in a rather contrived way. The airport is clearly not in Swords, and there is a lot of land in-between. Swords has a modest town core (smaller than that of many country towns, with just a few town-style streets), with a bunch of housing estates around it. And there is nothing wrong with that. But any attempt to label it as a city is patent nonsense - it is a satellite of Dublin, and fine as such. And trying to "gobble up" Dublin Airport is just silly. As for Post Towns, there are part of the delivery path for An Post. No one claims that most of south coastal Dublin is in the village of Blackrock, even though it is part of vast areas' addresses, do they? The energy spent on this kind of thing would be much more useful giving, as I see from the edit history, poor Swords a decent History section, or better pictures, or more on culture. 195.96.72.22 (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I heartily agree. Enough of this Swords-puffery. Get over yourselves. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I have changed some references to the airport as "in or near the Swords area". This should cover all points of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.64.161 (talk) 22:47, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The GeoDirectory states that Dublin Airport is in Swords, County Dublin. County Dublin hasn't existed since 1994, 20 years ago. Therefore, any info on Dublin Airport from that pages should be ignored. Having information 20 years out of date clearly shows it's an unreliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.209.191 (talk) 22:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Interesting to note that various airport offices themselves list their address as being in Swords. I've noticed this trend since the airport and Swords got the same K67 Eircode routing key in 2015. For example:

Customer Experience Department

3rd Floor

Three, The Green

Dublin Airport Central

Dublin Airport

Swords, Co. Dublin

K67 X4X5

It's not necessarily authoritative, and is likely a marketing thing. But it's interesting to note. --BaronNethercross (talk) 07:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, and it is interesting, but I don't think it changes the consensus - the airport is near, but not in, Swords. It never was, and Swords would have to grow quite a bit to change this. As Laurel Lodged noted above, the townlands on which the airport is formed have more to do with districts to the south (Santry in particular). Another editor made a point about Small Areas (a population measurement tool, not a definer of geography), Electoral Divisions / Local Electoral Areas / Constituencies (all for voting purposes, nothing more, and often crossing district lines, and / or mixing up districts) and Post Towns (just a convenience, sometimes taking in areas not even in the same county). I think the above is an example of the latter - in the old system, pre-eircodes, Swords was used because it was the post town for a wide area, as "Blackrock, Co. Dublin" was for a massive swathe of the southside, including many actual districts. SeoR (talk) 02:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

As my watchlist is quiet, I have been struck by the demographics / population / status topic which has sprung up around Swords over recent weeks. On one point, I do believe a good case has been made for a population of over 42 thousand for the town and surrounds. But it is also true that some of the residential areas are only tenuously connected to the town, and can see why the Census people excluded some. Even the County Council notes that most of the town-like features of Swords relate to Main Street and short sections of a few other streets. And the population of the town centre is rather modest. I am not sure that broad debate on a topic like this is relevant to Wikipedia, whose main focus is in what Swords is now. This does not readily fit with speculation about 2035, and plans which sound a little like some of the fantasy of the Celtic Tiger years, with Belmayne or Clongriffin, small and still unfinished housing estates, touted as "new towns." However, Fingal's "Swords Masterplan" is quite realistic:

• Swords is identified as a Metropolitan Consolidation Town within the Regional Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin Area and has an important role as a developing town within the Dublin City Region.
• It is key to the future success of Swords as a multi-functional high quality Major Town Centre within the Dublin City region, that the traditional Town Centre extend in a compact manner to the south and south west

These seem reasonable ambitions, albeit everything was set back a bit by the dropping of Metro North. I do agree that there is still good scope to improve the article, and would also suggest removing the Demographics of Swords related article. Twilson r (talk) 11:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I do believe that after a very busy period of editing, and the development of a long list of references, the article should be considered for the B quality grade. Twilson r (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

There has been back and forth editing on this point, and the best way to solve this is a discussion here, and referral to good sources, and official body positions. Certainly Swords is part of Greater Dublin, and has suburban housing, but I see it as a satellite, in the same way as Balbriggan or Leixlip, say. It differs in this respect from Tallaght, for example, part of the contiguous suburbs of Dublin. I will look into sources, but I hope this can also be discussed here. There has also been editing claiming the airport for Swords, but this was looked into before, and it is clearly not the case (there may have been confusion with old post towns, but that has no more meaning than the huge percentage of southern Dublin, across many named suburbs, which used to be addressed as "Blackrock, County Dublin."SeoR (talk) 17:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I would have maybe said that Swords is both, it is a satellite town - and Fingal Co. Council is very assertive about this the last ten years - and at the same time it is a remote suburb, if there is such a thing. I understand the idea of the suburbs being part of the continuous "mass" of Dublin, and so ending with Portmarnock or maybe Malahide, Blanchardstown and Tallaght. I would say that it is clear that Balbriggan, small towns like Skerries and Donabate, Bray and so on, are distinct. So I suppose Swords is more like those - even if the city is reaching out, the green belt and the airport will keep it separate. At the same time, around the small but real town centre, Swords is mostly suburban semi-detached and terraced housing. So a satellite town with its own suburbs, or just a remote suburb. I will have a look at how some areas around some UK cities are described, I think this might help.

On the airport question, the fact that it is not in Swords is clear. I sometimes take the bus from the airport to Swords for shopping after foreign trips, and it's over 15 minutes and a good bit of countryside from one to the other. The airport is in Collinstown, in what was northern Santry in the old civil parish system, and probably the lands are in other rural districts. Twilson r (talk) 07:48, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

The redirect Kinsealy–Drinan has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 10 § Kinsealy–Drinan until a consensus is reached. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 10:05, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

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