Talk:The Weakerthans

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Earlier Versions

I took a previous version of this page and copied it into The Weakerthans/Temp. Cigarette 1 July 2005 13:20 (UTC)

Citations

I don't believe you have to have a weblink to an article from a magazine, but if you're referencing a specific fact in a specific magazine a citation is needed to reassure the reader that this information actually does exist. The citations should require that information, such as issue, volume, writer, magazine name etc. be present. For more on citations, please see the Wikipedia Citation Templates ---Little Tinyfish. Nov 20, 2006

Folk Punk?

more like alt/punk/post-emo. they're just too promise ring meets weezer. no folk feel whatsoever.65.33.64.202 06:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

AOL Music says their genre is "punk-pop, post-punk, indie rock". Metacritic says "indie, rock". PopMatters uses the label "indie rock", but also says they have "a sturdy post-punk sensibility mixed with a good dose of prairie roots". I suppose that one could interpret "prairie roots" as being in the realm of folk music. Also, an Edmonton Sun article has noted: "The band can play a blues festival one year, the Winnipeg folk fest this summer and, meanwhile, sell out an Edmonton college rock bar twice." The band's MySpace page says they are an "independent rock band". --Paul Erik 15:09, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

You obviously haven't heard "One Great City!" or "Psalm for the Elks Lodge Last Call" if you think there's no folk aspect to what they do. Their sound is completely consistent with the genre known as folk punk — the fact that it doesn't sound like coffeehouse hippie folk doesn't mean there aren't folk roots to it. (They recorded a Phil Ochs cover, for gawd's sake!) "Promise Ring meets Weezer"? I can sort of see Promise Ring, but that's less a case of direct influence and more "both bands draw from some of the same third party influences", and there's nothing even remotely Weezer about the Weakerthans. Try Billy Bragg meets the Lowest of the Low. And anyway, what on earth does "alt" mean in 2007? Bearcat 21:18, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

My record store has only a few sweeping categories...four of which are Progressive Rock, Alternative Rock, Rock, and Metal. How on earth they decide what band qualifies for which genre is beyond me. I usually end up searching for one band in three of the categories and am always surprised as to which genre it falls under. Little tinyfish 01:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, I found this very amusing and thought I'd add it here: according to allmusic.com, the artists most similar to the Weakerthans are Ted Leo, Clem Snide, The Mountain Goats, Hanalei, The Buttless Chaps and, um, Death Cab for Cutie. "Promise Ring meets Weezer", my ass. Bearcat 00:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Virtue the Cat

virtue the cat seems to be mentioned in the upcoming album again.. anyone think the cat theme should be mentioned somewhere? Hoorayt 03:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It's Virtute, and unless you can come up with reliable sources about John K. Samson's actual thematic intent, any discussion of the cat theme would fail our original research policy. Bearcat 20:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Future members?

I'm not really a wiki expert, so maybe I'll leave this to the experts. ;) I don't know where to add this information, but according to Grant Lawrence on CBC Radio 3 a couple weeks ago, Ottawa musician Jim Bryson has/will be joining The Weakerthans. Bryson Rapidly Weakening —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.229.13.8 (talk) 03:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I went ahead and added it! Little tinyfish 00:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

He's joining as tour support, not as a permanent member, but yes, it is still worth mentioning. Bearcat 00:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

External links

Per WP:EL provisions around linkfarming, the external links section of this article is not meant to be an exhaustive web directory of every page that can be found with any Weakerthans-related content whatsoever. Interviews with and articles about the band can be cited as references for specific statements of fact within the article, where appropriate, but are not suitable as external links — the external links section is meant to be a minimal (one, two or three links max) selection of the most centrally important and official(-ish) websites for the topic.

The following links may be readded as references where appropriate, but do not belong as direct external links:

Set of six live videos from the band's 2007 tour on scheduletwo.com
"10 Questions with The Weakerthans" on bandoftheday.com
"End of the Road: The Weakerthans' Last Stop" CBC Radio 3 live concert session
Reunion Tour review on music webzine Rock Louder
Interview with John Samson on HEAVEmedia

- Bearcat (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Breakup

While it's true that numerous media sources have reported that the band is breaking up, all of them are simply covering Jason Tait's tweet as the story in and of itself, and none have yet secured any independent confirmation — virtually all of them, in fact, are still ending their headlines with a question mark, or with the qualification "drummer claims" (or some other similar phrase which conveys that it's still an unverified claim rather than a confirmed fact.) The problem is that a tweet is not a reliable source in and of itself: Twitter can be easily hacked, and the 140-character limit imposes serious constraints on the ability to read for tone and nuance (Tait's tweet can, in fact, easily mean that he's merely acknowledging the existence of rumours that the band is breaking up, while not actually confirming their truth.) So what we need is added confirmation that (a) Tait actually tweeted it himself, and wasn't hacked by a pranker making a false claim instead, and (b) he actually meant exactly what he's perceived to have meant. And even then, we'll still need to cite any content in our article to media coverage of that confirmation, and not to the tweet itself.

And I see that some outlets are also citing a recent CBC Music post to Instagram as corollary confirmation — but it's actually no such thing. It's just a general tribute post to the band, which quotes something Stephen Carroll said over a year ago about the band's activity hiatus — and even Grant Lawrence himself has personally denied that it had anything to do with the breakup claims (which caught him just as off guard as everybody else). So that post isn't what it's being claimed to be, and does not constitute adequate confirmation.

I'm not the one who's been doing the reverting, but that's why other administrators have been reverting attempts to add the breakup to this article: the tweet itself is not enough of a reliable source. Until some media outlet is able to secure a more detailed statement of confirmation from one of the members, we're just not there yet on the level of sourcing that we require to include the information on here. If they are indeed breaking up, then I'm sure the necessary followup confirmation won't be more than a day or two away — but the tweet is not, in and of itself, enough. Bearcat (talk) 14:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm all for not putting everything in past tense until we get confirmation, but it's going to be a constant stream of good faith edits and reverting as long as this rumour is going around. Maybe it makes sense to just add something about a rumoured but unconfirmed breakup? - Themightyquill (talk) 09:28, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree, that's probably the best solution available to minimize any editwarring over it. Bearcat (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

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Weakerthans name origin (The Lover)

First three comments were copied over from my talk page. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello. Regarding [edit] I'm unable to verify the assertion that the quote, "Go ahead, I'm weaker than you can possibly imagine," from the film The Lover is contained in the liner notes of the album Fallow. I have two CD imprints of that album (G-7 Welcoming Committee; Sub City) and I don't see that quote in the booklet. The ref that accompanies this origin story in the Wikipedia entry points to the band's AMG bio, but even that does not cite the liner notes. I do find an unattributed quote (likely from John K. Samson) at this band name site. It also is the most complete. But for the record, the quote from the film The Lover appears to be misremembered by Samson. The actual line (at about 1:11:48) is, "You have no idea how weak I am." M. David Hughes (talk) 23:28, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Interesting! There is also this interview with Samson. Would you mind if we copied this discussion over to Talk:The Weakerthans? Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine. I'm a newbie when it comes to this stuff. M. David Hughes (talk) 00:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

To respond to the Epitaph interview with John K. Samson cited above: Samson's explanation of where the name came from seems much more solid than the two competing and somewhat tenuous notions in the current Wikipedia entry, Samson's misrememberance of the dialogue from The Lover notwithstanding. Samson clearly gives The Lover as one "place" from which the name comes and "Solidarity Forever" as the other, even though he says up-front that there are "a few places." I suggest scrapping the Fallow liner notes bit—unless someone can corroborate this. The current language, "The band alludes to" the line from "Solidarity Forever" in the Weakerthans's "Pamphleteer" is misleading. "Solidarity Forever" is clearly referenced in a footnote contained in the album's lyric booklet. I'll be happy to rewrite ¶2 of History in the Weakerthans entry after a day or two, so anyone can weigh in. M. David Hughes (talk) 04:24, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Pinging Themightyquill and Bearcat. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Weird. I have a clear memory of seeing it in the liner notes, but I don't have my copy on hand to confirm. I'm happy to see the reference to the liner notes removed since I can't back up my claim. I'll double check next time I pull my CDs out of storage. Perhaps I was wrong, unless there are different editions of the liner notes for some reason. - Themightyquill (talk) 08:57, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, Themightyquill, you've cleared up one question I had: Were the liner notes from an LP? Evidently not. According to Discogs, there are several editions of Fallow. I have two CDs (G-7 1997 G7003; Sub City 1997 SC006-2), but none of the later editions from B.A. Records and Epitaph/Anti-. For clarity, my CD booklets contain 1) cover; 2) inside cover w/ quotes from Hunter and Wayman; 3) song list; 4-15) individual song lyrics; 16) G-7 – a promo for Love and Rage, Sub City – promo for Mount Carmel Clinic; 17) blurbs for G-7 and Sub City respectively; 18) Credits (w/ minor variation); 19) Thanks (w/ minor variation); 20: back cover, band photo. M. David Hughes (talk) 15:28, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't have any deep personal knowledge about the origins of the band's name beyond trusting what other people have written here — Fallow is the one album of theirs I don't have in CD format, so I can't speak to what is or isn't in the liner notes. One thing I will point out is that even if the "I'm weaker than you can possibly imagine" quote isn't actually in the movie, there's a possibility that it might still be in the original Marguerite Duras novel that the movie was based on — I haven't read it, so I can't say, but there's probably somebody on Wikipedia who has read it and could clarify one way or the other. Also possible, of course, is that the quote comes from a different film and Samson just misattributed it. That said, even if it's just wrong, it is still sourceable as the explanation Samson gave for the band's name — so it would probably be more appropriate to rewrite how we address the statement than to just remove it entirely. Attributing it to the liner notes in Fallow should definitely go, if it's just not actually there (which, again, I'm simply trusting what's being said because I can't verify for myself) — but it would be entirely reasonable to reattribute it to what he said in the interview. Bearcat (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Glad to have your take on this, Bearcat. I agree that what shines through Samson's memory is primary. Regarding the Duras novel, I have read it, and Samson's phrase is not used. The film's nightclub scene in question (see it on YouTube at 5:18) is led up to and covered on pp. 50–54. Sharp words (not specified) are uttered by the writer's brother to the writer's Chinese lover in a restaurant. No confrontation, however, later at the nightclub: "My brothers are soon drunk. But they still don't speak to him. Instead they start finding fault" with the nightclub itself. I was surprised that Samson (as publisher) quoted the film rather than the novel, but returning to the novel I saw why: the film gives a precise voice to what only is described in the novel. I am working on a rewrite of the name-origin paragraph and will post it here for review. M. David Hughes (talk) 16:57, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Draft rewrite of ¶2 under History, for your review:

The origin of the band's name was explained, in 2004 by Samson, as having come from "a few places." The first was a line from the 1992 film The Lover: "Go ahead, I'm weaker than you can possibly imagine." A second (he gave only two) was a line from Ralph Chaplin's union anthem "Solidarity Forever": "What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?" The band includes this line in the song "Pamphleteer" from the album Left and Leaving.^[1]

Re the reference, I obtained its format from another Wikipedia entry (Paramore, note 18) that cited the now-defunct Crush Music Mag. That ref points to a "true" archive at Wayback Machine, whereas I point to a "de facto" archive at Epitaph Records. I don't mind you cleaning up what I've done, but please explain, because I need to learn. Thanks. M. David Hughes (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

References

[1]
John K. Samson (November 2, 2004). "Weakerthans' John Samson Interviewed by Crush Music Mag" (Interview). Interviewed by Rob Todd of Crush Music Mag. Archived from the original on November 22, 2004. Retrieved November 15, 2018. {{cite interview}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)