Talk:Toshiro Mifune

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Why was the old image removed? I know it was deemed 'fair use', but this one has no identifying info at all. Quill 21:50, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Added a whole lot

Added a great deal of new info.--Venerable Bede 00:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quill

Quill, I responded to your question on my talk page --Venerable Bede 22:35, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mifune and English

I have never read or heard of Mifune becoming fluent in English. Indeed he used an interpreter for his English language interviews all his life.

As to the specific films mentioned here are the quotes directly from Galbraith's marvelous book on Kurosawa and Mifune.

Grand Prix on page 406 "As with The Important Man, Mifune learned his lines phonetically, with the help of tape recorded dialogue and assistance and of his interpreter...". Page 407 "During filming, Frankenheimer was troubled by Mifune's clipped English. It was clear to the director that Mifune's delivery was not only thickly accented but that he didn't understand the words that he was saying, and his performance suffered."

Red Sun on page 501 "Mifune used the time to practice his English with the aid of tape cassettes he'd brought from Japan. If he could, he was going to avoid the embarrassment of being dubbed as he had been on Grand Prix". And later, "He had managed to avoid being dubbed, but this proved to be a mixed blessing"

Hope this helps make the changes made understandable. MarnetteD | Talk 17:29, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

MarnetteD-

Galbraiths book is crap, pure and simple. His book goes into excessive and useless trivia about many of Kurosawa's and Mifune's collaborations, and includes virtually no relevant information on Kurosawa and Mifune the Men. This book is all filler and nothing else, and borderline plagiarism - Galbraith's book is nothing more than an extensive filmography as well as plot summations and production notes. Virtually nothing substantive is given regarding Kurosawa and Mifune, nor their relationship. I bought it, and returned it.

And Galbraith doesn't even speak Japanese!

However, I will leave your addition of that sorry excuse for a "biography" in the "Further Reading" section only because of the scarcity of english texts regarding Mifune. --Venerable Bede 00:13, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Above assessment of book seems not very wiki NPOV — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.228.33.237 (talk) 04:00, 2005 April 22 (UTC)

"Japanese Parents of Mixed Descent"

In the article, it says that he had "Japanese parents of mixed descent." What does that mean, exactly? Were his parents Japanese/Chinese, Japanese/White American, Japanese/White European, Japanese/Filipino or what? The details should be clarified, at least in my humble opinion.

It must have been a mistake or something. Mifune was just of Japanese heritage. User: Le Anh-Huy.

Someone probably read the born in China part Palm_Dogg 06:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

~Kurt ChildeRolandofGilead 04:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"best-known Japanese actor in the history of film"

Is there a source for this assertion? This would seem open to debate. (Note: this phrase also appears on a disambiguation page.)Cleduc 04:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing to support this. It's just some fanboy's opinion he wants to see up on the page. If he reverts again, I'm getting Jaranda. Targetter 02:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not getting involved in the revert war, but I initially removed it because a)it is POV, b)it needs citation c)it probably isn't true inside Japan (so needs qualifying) d)adds nothing to the article (if you've already heard of him it's pointless, if you haven't it might add the lie to him being the most famous Japanese actor) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yomangani (talk • contribs) 10:32, 2006 July 8 (UTC)

I don't want to get involved in the war either, but here's a similar, if not even more extravagant claim at Seven Samurai: "The Seven Samurai is arguably the most famous non-English language film of all time." Oh? Says who?... -- Rizzleboffin 13:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that is quite as outrageous as it at leasts uses 'arguably' rather than 'easily' but since anything is arguable I removed it.Yomangani 09:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In 2018 the BBC International Critics'poll voted "Magnificent Seven" as the 'greatest foreign-language film of all time'. 83.148.38.158 (talk) 19:08, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I put in what I hope is a workable compromise (it's still slightly POV but makes up for it by being vague...so much for standards!). I still support removing that sentence entirely, but I don't want to make anybody cry. Yomangani 19:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

That sentence doesn't belong in the article unless a source can be cited, otherwise it's original research, speculation, or just a plain bad assertion. Cleduc 03:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Filmography

Why does it end in 1963? Uucp 17:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Shogun

i deleted part of a sentence that said Kurosawa made derisive comments about Shogun "perhaps because, at that time, none of the films he had created without Mifune had made much impact with American audiences." This sort of statement needs a citation. So, too, does the statement that he spoke ill of Shogun. 23skidoo 17:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your removal pf that sentence. Sanshiro Sugata, Ikiru and, especially, Dersu Uzala (which had won the Oscar for Best Foreign Film) were well known at the time. Interviews with AK, from the time, that I remember reading focused more on his dislike of the glaring historical errors in costuming and set design (both were things that AK was a stickler about getting right). Some of the antipathy between the two men was also mentioned. Not as much as the removed statemnt implies. Of course, I was reading these over 26 years ago so I don't remember all of the specifics and I wouldn't be able to cite who the interviewers were but my thanks to you for cleaning this up 23skidoo. MarnetteD | Talk 17:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

this was shown on television in the U.S. and as a theatrical version in the rest of the world Is this entirely true. I remember seeing it on german TV back then.--Tresckow 22:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

Toshiro Mifune is listed as Toshirō Mifune. Anyhow, I don't really care that much about this issue enough to argue about it. Evan1975 05:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

According to the summary Patrick Schwemmer moved Mifune on April 13 (Rationale: moved Toshiro Mifune to Toshirō Mifune over redirect: I feel the distinction between long and short vowels is crucial in Japanese, and English article titles should reflect this difference.). I moved it back today :) WhisperToMe 06:04, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I wish you had put that move up for discussion. It's been many years, but I know that some of his movies listed him as Toshirô Mifune (yes, that is a circumflex, not a macron). Bendono 06:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

IMDB uses "Toshirô Mifune" . His "official" website uses "Toshirou Mifune"! I really must ask that you revert the move and put it up for discussion if you wish to pursue it. Bendono 06:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

1. I would like to know what to move it to first - since you found the "Toshirou Mifune"

WhisperToMe 20:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry I brought up the issue; I had no idea someone would actually try to move Toshirō Mifune's wiki. Mifune's official English website does not spell it "Toshirou". And IMDB uses "ô" because IMDB cannot display Unicode and charaters like "ō" Evan1975 04:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The Japanese page lists in English: "TOSHIROU MIFUNE OFFICIAL WEBSITE". (This is certainly English.) I prefer Toshirō Mifune since it is the expected romanization of his name. (I do not like exceptions and special handling.) I can also accept "Toshirô Mifune", although it is less than ideal. I can even grudgingly accept "Toshirou Mifune" if it is necessary. However, I absolutely can not accept "Toshiro Mufune". Bendono 05:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 03:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Illness and death

There is a section about Mifune-san in the DVD extras for Picture Bride (film) in which the director Kayo Hatta states that his illness was not evident during filming, and that he suffered from Parkinson's disease. That might be a good source for clean up. Srain (talk) 10:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Names of modern figures -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:35, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Toshirō Mifune → Toshiro Mifune – The person's official website calls him "Toshiro Mifune". As far as I have been able to substantiate, a macron was never used on the romanized version of his name in film credits, film posters, or other promotional material. By the rule of the Manual of Style for Japan-related articles, Use the form personally or professionally used by the person, if available in the English/Latin alphabet and by common convention, this article should be titled "Toshiro Mifune". JoshuSasori (talk) 01:12, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Support his films are available in the English language market, and they are credited without the macron. 70.24.244.198 (talk) 03:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Support. No evidence macron is used in relevant sources; all evidence indicates to the contrary. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:18, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Support, per International Dictionary of Films and Filmmakers, Columbia, and his film credits as they are given by Criterion Collection, which produces the definitive versions of his work for the North American market. I get 165 post-1990 English-language GBook hits for the diacritic out of 4,530 total, or less than 4 percent. Kauffner (talk) 16:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Oppose The fact that English translations ignore or are unaware of proper Japanese transliterations is not an acceptable reason for Wikipedia to exhibit the same ignorance. Properly transliterated, Toshirō has the macron. Additionally, it does no harm to be accurate here, as "Toshiro" without the macron leads to the article as well. Monkeyzpop (talk) 19:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "proper Japanese transliterations". JoshuSasori (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

本当ですか？私は反対だ。 Monkeyzpop (talk) 00:44, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

If this insertion of a statement in Japanese is meant to indicate that you're a Japanese person, then as a Japanese person why don't you go to the passport office and tell them you want your name in your passport using a macron. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:50, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You have mistaken my intent. I do not doubt that was your intent.Monkeyzpop (talk) 01:01, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

My intent is to get the name of the article changed to the usual form of the name of the individual. Your objection to this move seems to be based on the notion that there is something called "proper Japanese transliteration". I assert that no such thing exists. The motive for your above statement in Japanese is unclear to me and does nothing to shake my position that no such thing as "proper Japanese transliteration" exists. If you have a stronger argument for why this page should not be moved, then please make it. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Support o and ou are both usually o in English In ictu oculi (talk) 05:52, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
For information purposes A quotation-mark-surrounded Google request for "Toshirô Mifune" (with the macron) yields 1,270,00 hits. The same search, but without the macron, yields only 825,000 hits. I continue gently to oppose the change.Monkeyzpop (talk) 01:06, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately this tells us something about how Google works and nothing about how the name is spelt. A search for "Toshirô Mifune" (which has a circumflex rather than a macron) gives as its first result this article (which uses a macron). If you have evidence of any film (even one) which used a circumflex or a macron on Mifune's first name, that would be interesting, but I was not able to find even one example. JoshuSasori (talk) 01:09, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Even the DVD cover for the television series "Shogun", whose title uses a macron, doesn't use a macron for Mifune's name: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/sleepyhead/images/TV/Shogun.jpg JoshuSasori (talk) 01:16, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Comment. The title should tell the reader what the subject is commonly called in published English. As near as I can tell, these macrons are peculiar to Britannica. So I don't see any "information purpose" in them. Google can't possibly select 1.3 million results in 0.52 seconds of computing time, so that sort of result number is a pure guess. I get 446 post-1990 English-language GBook results for "Toshirô Mifune", i.e. nearly three times as many results for the circumflex as for the macron. Kauffner (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

And yet, "Toshirô Mifune" doesn't correspond to any standard system of romanization of Japanese. If the circumflex is used, it should be Tosirô Mihune (Kunrei system). If the macron is used, it should be Toshirō Mifune (Hepburn system). JoshuSasori (talk) 03:28, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

And yet, this person has appeared in English language films, which we can check the credits of. (like 1941, Grand Prix, etc) Clearly working on a English film means having an English language version of their name because they have to be registered with the Screen Actors Guild, or be banned from working on these Hollywood films. 70.24.248.211 (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no such thing as being "banned" from working on Hollywood films for not taking an English language "version" of one's name. There is no such Screen Actors Guild rule. In any event, it has nothing to do with this discussion. Monkeyzpop (talk) 21:17, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Toshiro Mifune is Methodist. Disinformation.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToshiroMifune

"And it should be noted Mifune was a devout Methodist. Real Men Love Jesus, indeed."

Where is the original source of information?　220.104.44.218 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

It is OK to remove the uncited claims that he was a methodist, which was marked as uncited since November 2011. People who want to restore them need to add citations. Wistchars (talk) 04:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I found support for part of the claims in a book on Google books published 2002. I've added the citation to the article. Is there evidence he lapsed from it? Wistchars (talk) 08:25, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/%E4%B8%89%E8%88%B9%E6%95%8F%E9%83%8E%E3%81%AE%E5%A2%93%E3%83%BB%E7%A5%9E%E5%A5%88%E5%B7%9D%E7%9C%8C%E5%B7%9D%E5%B4%8E%E5%B8%82%E3%83%BB%E6%98%A5%E7%A7%8B%E8%8B%91.JPG

The grave of Toshiro Mifune is a Buddhism type. Is he a believer of Methodist?

I investigated Religion of Mifune on a website of Japan. However, there is no source of information that he is Methodist. 220.96.4.14 (talk) 14:57, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Toshiro Mifune was a Christian. He married in January 1950 at the Aoyama Gakuin Methodist Church. His marriage photos are available online. His marriage was held in a church as per Christian Tradition. ^[1] https://www.flickr.com/photos/bampfa/34925494740 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.213.70 (talk) 11:24, 6 January 2018 (UTC) All Nice and well about him marrying Christian, but he hasn't got a Christian grave. Either he lost his faith, married Christian to please his parents that maybe were still living, or somebody else decided on matters of his grave. But born christian and married Christian is no proof for being Christian through all of adulthood.178.232.27.248 (talk) 09:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

This entire point has fascinated me over the last few years...I still can't find any actual meaningful evidence to support the claim though.

For one, the photo you linked is merely of that: a wedding. None of the text descriptions indicate anything of Mifune's faith or any real reason for why the two held a western style marriage ceremony. It merely recounts the event (which did happen at Aoyama Gakuin's church as stated in the article) and includes some basic magazine fluff. Trying to research the subject further (specifically Mifune and his marriage at Aoyama) brings up...I kid you not, one result in Japanese....which is asking about the validity of this (English language only) Wikipedia article on a Japanese Yahoo Answers page. Even on that page, no one can seem to find any clear evidence (in Japanese textual sources) of Mifune being Christian.

In fact, the few sources I can find about Mifune and religion deal purely with his odd association with the Soka Gakkai and some quotes from people saying he was explicitly atheist. Nothing on Christ anywhere.

None of this is to say its impossible...but I think it's more than enough to say we don't have the evidence to make that sort of claim. Especially when the (very well written) Japanese page for the actor isn't able to find any substantial evidence either.

That being the case, I ask for the claims of Mifune's Christian faith to be removed until further convincing evidence is provided. If no other rebuttal is offered I'll remove it myself in a week or so.

And to be clear to the non-Japanese speaking who might see this discussion, in Japan the ceremony is not really called a Christian marriage--it's a 西洋結婚式--a "western style marriage ceremony." Many people in Japan from the 1900s onward (especially following the postwar) have performed western style marriages with zero care or indication for Christian rites or faith. It's merely an aesthetic choice. These marriages can happen just as often at established churches as well as "mock" venues created only for weddings. I live pretty close to one myself. Zach Arani (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm also just now noticing the near nonsensical line in Mifune's Early Life section claiming he was born to parents working as "Methodist missionaries"....literal moments after the previous sentences described their (actual) background:

" His father Tokuzo was a trade merchant and photographer who ran a photography business in Qingdao and Yingkou, and was originally the son of a medical doctor from Kawauchi, Akita Prefecture. His mother Sen was the daughter of a hatamoto, a high-ranking samurai official."

This information is also present on the Japanese version of the page and is well sourced. The Methodist missionary claim is sourced from two random blogs with no sources themselves.

For one thing, their actual background and (in the case of the father) their jobs were quite literally listed the sentence right before this claim. Was Tokuzo really a trade merchant, photographer, and...a missionary in his free time??

If no meaningfully primary or reputable sources are provided I will also remove this statement from the page in due time. Zach Arani (talk) 17:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

References

[1]
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bampfa/34925494740

Toshiro Mifune is not Christian and Methodist.

Submit a source of information.

External links modified

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

garden path

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Overkill on Wikitables

Alot of the extra info is overkill and walks a razor's edge of being fancruft. The "Release date" column can just be restricted to the year the films/shows were released. There doesn't need to be a column for category and country. The Japanese writing for character names do not need to be listed since there are only two links to Japanese articles. If linking to the Japanese director articles are important then they can be linked like this: Kiyoshi Saeki, same goes for the two Japanese articles for characters. If need be, the Japanese titles of films can have their own column. No source is provided for the alternative titles for films, so those can be outright removed. Repeated content in the Notes column needs to be removed such as "Sanjūrō [2] (三十郎)" and other similar content. Armegon (talk) 22:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@The Optimistic One:@User talk:Mockingbus thoughts? Armegon (talk) 06:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

@Armegon: Completely agree. I even removed some of the unnecessary whitwhat. The Optimistic One (talk) 15:59, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

That's good to see. However, do we truly need separate columns for country and categories? If countries are vital, we can note in the paragraph above the wikitable that all films are Japanese productions unless noted, and non-JPN films can be noted in the Notes column. For categories, I feel it's extra weight with little value. A good number of Mifune's films have their own articles in English and Japanese, so readers can click on any article if they wish to learn the category/genre. Armegon (talk) 23:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with thinning down the tables some, and I hope you can see the lighter touch I left there when I went through the TV section. I'd like to raise a counterpoint, though: especially for movies that don't have English Wikipedia pages, it's the English titles that would need sourcing (especially since some of these have little to no relationship to literal translations), and the Japanese titles should be considered "canonical". That's where it's especially useful to have a Japanese-language title present and a link (through that title, as I've done) there to ja.wikipedia. I feel also like that presents a better experience to the reader, since it's a consistent indicator that they're about to visit a non-English page. The same basic principle works for kanji names for directors, which is currently a bit more common over with Hiroyuki Sanada's page (I haven't gone through all of Mifune's). A separate "Japanese Title" column sounds like a good idea to me, though, if you that's more readable or just better data formatting. For TV shows... as I mentioned in comments, there's a good case for thinning down series appearances to years, but when an actor shows up on a single episode, a complete date feels more truthful and readily informative. What do you think about that? Mockingbus (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, upon further contemplation, it's best to leave the Japanese writings for the films and directors the way they are. I know I proposed a separate column for the Japanese writing for films, but I don't mind leaving them the way they are. My current issue is the supposed value for the category and country columns and whether the Japanese writing for characters are warranted. It seems that only two or three characters have links to Japanese articles. In regards to the year/date column of the TV wikitable, you propose leaving airdates for single episode appearances? I'm a bit confused. Armegon (talk) 02:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to defend the "country of release" or "category"/genre columns; the rare cases where, say, a Japanese working actor hops over to Hong Kong for a Chinese film, can be mentioned in notes. I'd support removing kanji names for most characters, but leaving them in for legitimate historical/literary figures. Does that sound fair?

For year/dates in TV, yes, I'm suggesting that most dates be left at just year(s), but single-episode appearances have complete airdates where available. That might be more appropriate for, for example, It's 8 O'Clock! Everybody Gather 'Round, where he shows up for a single airing of a long-running variety show, vs. The Happy Yellow Handkerchief, where he just plays a character that serves his plot purpose in a single episode. ( But then, maybe we should remove things like that? He wore his costume, but we don't catalog, for example, every instance of an American actor showing up for The Tonight Show. ) Mockingbus (talk) 02:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

So would you be in support of removing the category/country columns? And alright, I understand now. Yeah, I'd be in support of retaining the year for most of his TV appearances but leaving airdates for single episodes. Armegon (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, let's remove those columns. They're definitely the least relevant of the information available; I'm mostly concerned with the Japanese titles and wikilinks. Thanks for taking the time to understand my perspective! Mockingbus (talk) 03:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Anytime! Before I remove any edits, @The Optimistic One: what are your thoughts on these proposed changes? @User talk:Mockingbus I forgot to ask, for the option to keep the kanji for historical/literary characters, did you mean keeping the kanji for the characters that have Japanese articles? Armegon (talk) 09:13, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely support removing the genre and country columns. As for directors, just their Anglicised names are fine. The Optimistic One (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I think historical/literary characters (and directors, to @The Optimistic One's point) probably only need kanji names if they don't have English-language articles (which should naturally include them). I remember a few directors (either here or on Sanada's page) who don't have articles in either Wikipedia, and I think we should leave them in there, on grounds that ja.wikipedia is likely to get them long before en.wikipedia. Mockingbus (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2020 (UTC)