Talk:Tree shaping

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

• What I think should be changed: The 3 drawings in the methods section are derivatives and should be removed ASAP.
• Why it should be changed: Derivative works are not allowed. []
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button): [] BTW, two of the three derivative drawings could be replaced with the real thing.

(Original objections rescinded by author and subject.)

Slowart (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Netherzone (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

• What I think should be changed: In the methods section, on the main page and also in the expanded methods section^[1] the term instant should be removed.
• Why it should be changed: The term is derogatory, it is original research. First added to the main page here ^[2] The one citation I could find, is a magazine interview, preserved here by Pooktre.^[3] it is an interview.

The support citation is a single artist interview, self sourced and therefor is poorly sourced. The methods section under instant mentions a living person (myself) Richard Reames. I object in the strongest terms to having my art labeled as "instant" when in reality it requires many years and tends to degrade and trivialize my work.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):^{[4] [5][6] [7]}

^[8]

Slowart (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this change should be made in compliance with NPOV and RS. Note to requesting editor: could you please add here the exact sentences to be changed per this request? For example: 1) change XYZ to ABC; 2) change PQR to LMNOP, etc. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 13:33, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I have this book in hard copy front of me: Ockenga, Starr (2001). Eden on Their Minds: American Gardeners with Bold Visions. New York, NY: Clarkson Potter Publishers/Crown Publishing Group. pp. 108–117. ISBN 0-609-60587-9, which has an entire chapter on Reames' work supporting the fact that his methodology takes place gradually over a period of months to many years. The book is a fully independent and reliable source, and verifies what is being requested. The use of the word "instant" should be removed from the article. Netherzone (talk) 14:00, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Change this "Instant tree shaping uses trees 2 to 3 m (6.6 to 9.8 ft). The trees are bent and woven into different designs and held until cast. Bends are then held in place for several years until their form is permanently cast. With this method it is possible to perform initial bending and grafting on a project in an hour, as with Peace in Cherry by Richard Reames, Some techniques of this method are bending, and un-localizing the bend. Ring barking is sometimes employed to help balance a design. Creasing is folding trees such as willow and poplar over upon themselves."

To this "One method is to use flexible saplings 2 to 3 m (6.6 to 9.8 ft). The trees are bent and woven into different designs and held until cast. Bends are then held in place for several years until their form is permanently cast. With this method it is possible to perform initial bending and grafting on a project in an hour, as with Peace in Cherry by Richard Reames.

Ring barking also called girdling, may be employed to help balance a design should one part of the design outgrow the other, creating a loss of symmetry.

Creasing is performed by folding trees such as willow and poplar over upon themselves without braking. Slowart (talk) 16:01, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Netherzone (talk) 18:08, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Netherzone please refrain from removing cited content. I've replaced the well cited Instant tree shaping and added some more content to that methods section. I've also added as an extra reference, that you and I both agreed as a peer reviewed scholarly journal is a very reliable source. This isn't the only source of the wording Instant tree shaping linked to this method of shaping trees. Please discuss before making more sweeping changes. Blackash (talk) 07:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

On the Methods page,

Change this

Instant tree shaping

It uses mature trees, perhaps 6–12 ft. (2–3.5 m) long and 3-4in (7.6–10 cm) in trunk diameter. An instantaneous form is created by bending, weaving and sometimes cutting or marking the trees into the desired shape. Then the shaping is held in place till the tree has grown enough annual rings to hold the shape, effectively casting it permanently into place. Understanding a tree's fluid dynamics is important to achieving the desired result.

To this

Sapling bending

One method uses thin saplings, perhaps 6–12 ft. (2–3.5 m) long and 3-4in (7.6–10 cm) in trunk diameter. A form is created by bending and or weaving into the desired shape. Then the shape is held in place till the tree has grown enough annual rings to hold the shape, effectively casting it permanently into place.

Slowart (talk) 17:58, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Could you please add this to that article's talk page, rather than here. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple sources for the wording Instant Tree shaping and the linked method. All the points Slowart has bought up has been gone over and the refences where checked (I think it's called) the reliability noticeboard and they are found to secondary sources and not quotes. Netherzone please don't remove cited content. Blackash (talk) 03:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Blackash (talk)When was the term instant tree shaping, originally published? Who originally coined the term Instant tree shaping? I believe it was here https://www.pooktre.com/extra/3/methods.html I'm I wrong?

It is derogatory to me and my work because it is an attempt by an single wikipedia editor to define "instant tree shaping" as "Arborsculpture" where "the cons far outweigh the pros" as the editor web page says. Slowart (talk) 02:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

By my memory the wording was first used in article by a reporter. Please note that each method in that book has a pro and cons list and that each time the authors are stating their opinion.Blackash (talk) 10:31, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Blackash (talk) Let's find that "article by a reporter" When was the term "gradual tree shaping" originally published? Who originally coined the term? It appears they are tied together. Slowart (talk) 03:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Both terms were added after I could cite secondary source plus a primary expert source. And now there are multiple more good secondary refs for these terms. You have raised this over and over. There has be much discussion on this through out the history. Admin editors and others have told you that yes cites are inline with Wiki. This is a WP:DEADHORSE Blackash (talk) 09:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Disagree. The term "instant" was added before any proper citation. [diff] A book was cited, but that book does not contain "instant" terminology at all so it's inclusion was WP:OR and more recent citations appear to be circular or single source interviews with the editor who included them here. WP:NPV WP:IMPARTIAL As the use of the term "instant" in this art's methods section here and on the Methods [page], is the complete opposite of reality and pointed at my work. [] (note added "arborsculpture to file name)I feel it is derogatory and should simply be change to something neutral. Let's not make this place a WP:battleground. When neutral editors help this page they should be allowed to do so. Editors with WP:COI should only use the edit request form please. We need other involved neutral editors if this page is to improve, not just one main one IMO. [] Blackash · 645 (44.6%)

Duff · 398 (27.5%)

Slowart · 71 (4.9%)

SilkTork · 71 (4.9%) Slowart (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to make two comments:

1) WP's behavioral guidelines on COI editors clearly states that they are expected to disclose it whenever they seek to change an affected article's content and that COI editors are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly, and can propose changes on article talk pages instead. Both editors with COIs (Slowart and Blackash/Pooktre) should, to my understanding of the guidelines, use the edit request system. Presently only one of the two COI editors are complying with the guidance.

2) In examining the evidence in the talk page archives and the article history and its sourcing, it appears that the first usage of the term "instant" tree shaping is from 2008, and that the term was coined (and added to the article) by Blackash of Pooktre. From there the term seems to have been expressed in an interview to a reporter by Blackash as well as used in blog posts by the same editor in the same year. Netherzone (talk) 02:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Netherzone (talk) There are multiple references for the term "Instant tree shaping" that have been checked and verified as secondary sources, not original research at the RN board. Additionally, we both agreed that the peer-reviewed scholarly journal is a highly reliable source. It's worth noting that the term "Instant tree shaping" is linked to this method of shaping trees in other journal sources and articles as well. Blackash (talk) 10:50, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

This citation supporting "instant tree shaping" on the page cites an interview with pooktre as it's source, please see the citation at the bottom of the article. Slowart (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

These are the two cites after the first instance of wording Instant tree shaping on this article. Both are secondary sources for the use of this wording. ^{[9] [10]} Blackash (talk) 05:47, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

1. Overview

I am skeptical of the CO2 mitigating effects of a few living benches, even in a microclimate, mentioned under reference 39. This part is also fairly informal, and offers none of the obvious counter arguments.

1. Quote

"Shaped tree projects can play a role in mitigating the imbalance of carbon dioxide-oxygen that happens in cities, creating a microclimate that could be soothing to human habitation."

1. Counter Arguments

1. Might take more energy to shape these trees than they offset. 2. What about when the trees are growing? Would they be in the way of normal benches (and whatnots)? Or would they be grown offsite, contributing to counter argument 1. 3. Who would pay for these? 50.96.225.113 (talk) 02:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)