Talk:Tren de Aragua

LOL, I won't even try to edit it, but this is a shame, 'enormity of its crimes', etc. This is a non-entity 3rd rate gang for it has neither control of drug traffic outside both the regions of production (Colombia, Peru) passing (Mexico) or destination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.150.233 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

@WMrapids: Hi. With recent fearmongering and hoaxes from far-right outlets such as Breitbart about Venezuelan migration, we have to be careful to use high quality sources, and not only local ones. A good example about this trend is shown by this piece by Chicago Sun-Times:

• Main, Frank; Schuba, Tom (10 November 2023). "Despite internal police alerts, scant evidence of violent gang members among Venezuelan migrants in Chicago". Chicago Sun-Times.

NoonIcarus (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

You are actually citing an outdated article. I have already removed potential xenophobic information from the refugee article, so I understand your concerns, but the best way to improve this article would be expanding information on Latin American sections. WMrapids (talk) 17:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree that the article could do better with expanded sections from other regions. A book I can recommend is one written by journalist Ronna Rísquez about the band gang. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Source misinterpretation

Disputed content includes the following statements:

• The gang targets Venezuelan refugees in the United States where they recruit members
• Their activities increased in New York City, with Tren de Aragua allying with MS-13
• Presence of Tren de Aragua in New York began with various phone thefts in five different counties

All of these assertions, among others, come from a New York Post interview cited here:. The  New York Post (RSP entry) is generally unreliable, and its RSP entry is clear on the matter: "There is consensus that the New York Post is generally unreliable for factual reporting especially with regard to politics, particularly New York City politics. A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication."

• A notable brawl occurred in Times Square on 27 January 2024, with two members of the Tren de Aragua reportedly being arrested after attacking NYPD officers.

The Associated Press article itself says in its headline: "Man charged with attacking cops in Times Square and vilified in Trump ad was misidentified, DA says". The only mention about the gang here is ICE has alleged both are Tren de Aragua gang members.. This cannot be asserted in an editorial voice, and definitely shouldn't be included unless there are convictions or conclusive investigations.

• In Texas, the gang extorts Venezuelan migrants and is primarily present in El Paso.

Nowhere in the article this is stated. Besides continuing to cite the New York Post, there are only three times when the city is mentioned: citing a FBI agent, saying that the gang allegedly uses this place as a crossing (according to the NYP), and citing a former Marshall.

The article that I offered about Chicago already addresses the police reports, and responds writing: "Cops were warned to check crime suspects for tattoos linked to the El Tren de Aragua prison gang. A Sun-Times analysis found shoplifting and domestic violence arrests, but little proof of the gang’s presence among migrants."

All of this, along with WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLPCRIME, leaves pretty clear that better sourcing must be used for this section. --NoonIcarus (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

1. The gang targets Venezuelan refugees in the United States where they recruit members. This was replaced with better sources.
2. Their activities increased in New York City, with Tren de Aragua allying with MS-13 Found other sources for this, but it seemed more speculative.
3. Presence of Tren de Aragua in New York began with various phone thefts in five different counties Was NYP, so not restored into article.
4. A notable brawl occurred in Times Square on 27 January 2024, with two members of the Tren de Aragua reportedly being arrested after attacking NYPD officers. ICE and DHS have both said that they were members of the gang, so this is attributed.

Also, please read my response that the Chicago Sun-Times piece is outdated.

Overall, better sources have now been provided. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

More misinformation, this time from Elon Musk: Did Elon Musk Wrongly Implicate NYC Migrant In Police Assault?!. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

This is not related. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

We should be cautious about naming people who haven't been convicted of a crime. I realize the potential connection with Killing of Laken Riley is hot right now, but those folks are not Wikipedia:PUBLICFIGUREs, especially considering that the alleged gang member is not thought to be directly implicated in that crime, so I feel they should remain unidentified. Thesixthstaff (talk) 19:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree. Care should also with the rest of the content for the same reason, such as during the New York brawl. Sources already describe that Javier Damien was already misidentified, and we have to remember that content on Wikipedia has real-world consequences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NoonIcarus (talk • contribs)

@Thesixthstaff: Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I read your concerns about this on the other talk page and was looking to make these changes myself, but it looks like you got it done. Thanks again! WMrapids (talk) 01:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Basic information to add to this article (which anyone visiting this article would expect to find here): the origin/etymology of the name "Tren de Aragua." How could someone have written an article on this subject and forgotten to explain this? 98.123.38.211 (talk) 00:00, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Tone of first sentence in this section is in breach of impartiality standard. Rather than describing the appearance of the gang as “beginning during the Administration of Joe Biden,” I suggest the use of a date or dates, as one would in other descriptions of start & end dates. C++awx86 (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Today, there was an edit that struck out the description of outlets reporting on the Aurora, CO panic as "radical right" and replaced it with "right-wing." The non-signed-in user 71.199.217.47 who made the edit justified it by saying that Fox News and the New York Post weren't really radical right, that they were merely right-wing and that just b/c radical right outlets had also reported on it doesn't mean it was only a concern of the radical right. First off, the word "radical" has an actual non-partisan definition. It doesn't mean "scary." It comes from the Latin word radix meaning "root". Thus, radical means "of or relating to roots". In a political context, radical means "concerned with changing politics at a fundamental level, i.e. at the roots." Thus, "radical right" means a contingent of the political right that seeks to change the foundations of politics.

There is ample evidence that Trump and the movement of Trumpism seeks fundamental political change that abandons foundational ideas of American politics, like bipartisanship and birthright citizenship. The editorial voice of Fox News and the New York Post are very pro-Trump, and even the times that they haven't been aligned with him, like in early 2023, they've still leaned into Trumpism and its attendant political beliefs and favored policies. Hence, Fox News and the New York Post, at the time of that false panic drummed up by the mayor of Aurora and further propagated by Trump, was an outlet with an overwhelming radical right bias. What's considered "right-wing" as opposed to "radical right" has nothing to do with whether or not they can be described as "fringe". You can be both radical and the dominant political faction, just look at Venezuela's USP, the party of Nicolas Maduro. Just because Fox News and the New York Post are mainstream right wing outlets does not mean they're not radical.

Finally, this user 71.199.217.47 has had a pattern of edits that are meant to downplay the radical right. Their most recent edit doesn't even make logical sense since the item that they edited was part of the "See Also" section which doesn't function as a list of accusations, just related topics. It's for these reasons that I'm going to undo their edit on this page and suggest that their IP address be tagged as problematic. Xerces1492 (talk) 23:44, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

I will not be digging in to past edits, but going forward, this will be on my radar and I have your back. Edit as you see fit. Marcus Markup (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Under the heading “United States” there is this sentence: “Contentions that Aurora was overrun by the gang were highlighted on radical right news outlets.” I contend that “radical right” is an opinion and not factual. 67.234.15.85 (talk) 13:52, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Is there an edit to the article you are suggesting? Beach drifter (talk) 00:18, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Well first the extreme right cannot be "radical". The correct word is "reactionary". The word "radical" applies only to the left. So the point is based in nonsense to begin with. The "reliable source" that conjoins two words that should never be adjacent to each other does not create (magically) some "new meaning", instead it undermines it's own credibility. Why waste time trying to make use of language that is at core, completely meaningless. There are an infinite number of words out there. Certainly they can be found at least some words for use in an encyclopedia that do not read like the burning garbage from a dumpster fire.72.180.111.79 (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2025 (UTC)

Is there an edit to the article you are suggesting? Beach drifter (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora - be aware the regular wikipedia has a similary named unrelated Op. Aurora. Oathed (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

It seems the deportations to El Salvador done by the US government are only indirectly related to the gang. Those deportations are being covered here.

March_2025_Venezuelan_deportations

So maybe move some content over there are provide a link? Bob drobbs (talk) 19:32, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

There are some serious issues with the following section:

• The United States government has labeled migrants sent to Guantánamo as members of the Tren de Aragua, primarily based on tattoos believed to be associated with the gang, such as crowns, flowers, phrases like "real hasta la muerte," a crown on a soccer ball, an eyeball that “looked cool” and the silhouette of Michael Jordan.

The presence of Tren de Aragua gang tattoos is one of about 25 markers used to determine if an individual is a gang member and is weighted very low. Id like to remove this section and/or reincorporate the content elsewhere in the article. MasterBlasterofBarterTown (talk) 14:17, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, no. That's the political line of BS, not the actual arguments made in court. Quote from the arguments themselves, and not the politically biased media that is capable of saying literally anything about anything. The people making these challenges are legal professionals, and their words can speak perfectly well for themselves.72.180.111.79 (talk) 18:11, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

That order was temporarily halted pending further legal challenges.

I think the Article would be improved if this idea were given some substance. There's a fight in the media about the motives and reasons for challenging this, and I think that the Lede should give at least some encyclopedic perspective (meaning not biased) on the legal issues involved.72.180.111.79 (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I found a fact that might belong in this article. See the quote below

But American intelligence agencies circulated findings last month that stand starkly at odds with Mr. Trump’s claims, according to officials familiar with the matter. The document, dated Feb. 26, summarized the shared judgment of the nation’s spy agencies that the gang was not controlled by the Venezuelan government.

The fact comes from the following source:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/politics/intelligence-trump-venezuelan-gang-alien-enemies.html

Here is a wikitext snippet to use as a reference:

 {{Cite news |title=Intelligence Assessment Said to Contradict Trump on Venezuelan Gang |url=https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/politics/intelligence-trump-venezuelan-gang-alien-enemies.html |work=The New York Times |date=2025-03-20 |access-date=2025-05-17 |language=en-US |first=Charlie |last=Savage |first2=Julian E. |last2=Barnes |quote=But American intelligence agencies circulated findings last month that stand starkly at odds with Mr. Trump’s claims, according to officials familiar with the matter. The document, dated Feb. 26, summarized the shared judgment of the nation’s spy agencies that the gang was not controlled by the Venezuelan government.}} 

This post was generated using the Add A Fact browser extension.

Oceanflynn (talk) 16:52, 17 May 2025 (UTC)

Split to Tren de Aragua and the United States

This article is unbalanced, skewing even in the intro to being highly weighted towards the U.S. in terms of amount of coverage. I suggest that U.S. coverage instead be summarized here, and be split into a subarticle, to give it space to for coverage without unbalancing the article as a whole. The TdA isn't primarily a U.S. topic. -- 65.93.183.181 (talk) 22:06, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

What about "Tren ed Aragua in the United States"? JaxsonR (talk) 01:30, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

I would support JaxsonR's version as that is a better sounding more precise title. GothicGolem29 (Talk) 16:55, 3 December 2025 (UTC)

As per @GothicGolem29, I'd support @JaxsonR's suggestion "Tren de Aragua in the United States". - Yadsalohcin (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2026 (UTC)

Support split I support @Yadsalohcin's reasoning. 2x2x2x2x2 (talk) 02:50, 20 May 2026 (UTC)

Support to "Tren de Aragua in the United States" or a shortened version "... in the USA" or "... in the U.S." because it is a much more precise title for the group's activities in the country than "Tren de Aragua and the United States". Regioncalifornia (talk) 03:19, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Oppose I think this unbalance is justified because the main opponent, it seems, is the United States itself. We simply need to expand the content of the other sections, and that’s it. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:25, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose it's unnecessary at the moment since most of the content is about the US. If you CFORK there isn't much left in the base article. If the article is expanded then you can break out US v TdA into a separate article. --Guiltymamba (talk) 06:35, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Oppose for now per _-_Alsor and User talk:Guiltymamba, but open to the idea " If the article is expanded then you can break out US v TdA into a separate article" Historyguy1138 (talk) 17:09, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

Tren de Aragua Leader, Niño Guerrero, whose full name is Héctor Rusthenford Guerrero Flores, was the longtime leader of Tren de Aragua. This post poses questions about who was actually killed in this operation and other facts relevant to producing a factual article. On or about June 12, 2026, the President of the United States of America, Donald J. Trump, posted that the USA, in coordination with Venezuela, killed the Tren de Aragua leader. Also posted by various news sources was information about this leader being incarcerated in various "leisure prisons" which are described essentially as resort compounds. ref: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp36z37knlko After reading the story I referenced, and others, my questions are: 1) Who else was killed when that green roofed building was blown up? e.g, Did "prison" workers and visitors lose their lives? 2) Are the reports, some on this very talk page, accurate in describing that Tren de Agagua was a minor player in global drug trafficking? 3) What is the impact of the fulfillment of the US President's promise to eliminate this criminal to US citizens? 4) How should associated articles be written to accurately describe the history of the events involved, e.g. this might include everything from blowing up alleged "fishing boats" to proof those boats were actually involved in drug smuggling and harm to US citizens, to whether or not these boats, and associated persons, were part of the Tren de Aragua gang, or drug smuggling activities, and whether, as questioned elsewhere on this very article's page, this information should focus on this leader being a Venezuelan problem instead of a US issue? i.e. written about under a different article, which may therefore change the impact of the importance of this story for some persons? Jess (talk) 19:40, 13 June 2026 (UTC)

Bringing this here to explain. The Venezuelan government has collaborated with and formed alliances with TdA multiple times 1, 2. Chile's prosecutor has accused Diosdado Cabello (current minister) of directly ordering TdA to murder dissident Ronald Ojeda 3. All of this separate from US government allegations. Portraying Venezuela as an enemy of TdA in the infobox is at least inaccurate, if not a blatant lie. Regioncalifornia (talk) 02:07, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

The Tren de Aragua has been regarded as one of the worst criminal organizations in Venezuela. Hundreds of members of the organization have been killed or captured in Venezuela by security forces. Venezuelan military personnel and police officers have also been killed in attacks carried out by the organization, including high-ranking officers 1. Portraying the Tren de Aragua as an ally of Venezuela makes no sense.

Of course, this does not rule out the possibility that corrupt Venezuelan officials may work for this organization. But as U.S. intelligence services have noted, an alliance between the Venezuelan state and the Tren de Aragua is “highly unlikely.”2 Brez70 (talk) 13:06, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

You completely ignored all the other sources different from the US government. Is not just a US thing AND that was already added in the original version. Regioncalifornia (talk) 13:51, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

Just recently, the organization's own leader was killed in a joint U.S.-Venezuelan operation 1. Brez70 (talk) 14:35, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

@Brez70 and how does that erase their history of alliances and complicity? Current "president" is acting under Trump's direct orders, not independently. You're only considering the US perspective while ignoring Chile's accusations and other sources that say they have formed alliances. Furthermore, the version you restored isn't the "original". The original never had Venezuela as an opponent. Regioncalifornia (talk) 18:47, 16 June 2026 (UTC)

I have cited multiple sources documenting the repression of this organization in Venezuela for years—not just since June 2026.

If the Tren de Aragua is allied with the Venezuelan state, how can one explain that its members in Venezuela are being killed or captured by Venezuelan security forces? How can one explain that the Venezuelan police and army are targets of attacks by the organization? Whether or not the Venezuelan government ordered the assassination of this soldier in Chile does not change the fact that Tren de Aragua has been repressed in Venezuela for years.

Specialists who study this criminal organization consider that it is not allied with Venezuela: "Similar to the previous case, experts also agreed that there is no evidence that members of Tren de Aragua who are in the United States are following orders from Nicolás Maduro’s regime. The relationship between Tren de Aragua and the Venezuelan regime “is largely antagonistic” and “is better characterized as conflictual and competitive,” although it has “brief moments of coordination when both the government and the TdA benefit economically and politically from such coordination.”1

U.S. intelligence services share the same view: "But the broader intelligence community views it as “highly unlikely” that there is any “strategic or consistent” cooperation between the Maduro government and Tren de Aragua."2

It is therefore not possible to state so categorically that Tren de Aragua is allied with Venezuela. This is a marginal opinion. Brez70 (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

Both sources you cite are about TdA in the US, they have nothing to do with TdA activities in Venezuela or elsewhere. And I have repeated a million times the alliances and complicity I'm talking about are separate from TdA activities in the US. An alliance doesn't necessarily mean there will be no confrontations or there will be absolute subordination, but the government has made pacts with them and has been complicit in their crimes in Venezuela:

• El Líbero: El régimen venezolano ha hecho tratos con el Tren de Aragua para usar a los presos de la Cárcel de Tocorón -penitenciaría donde surgió la banda- para contener manifestaciones en contra de Nicolás Maduro. También, para desplazar a grupos delincuenciales con los que las autoridades no logran negociar.
• InSight Crime: Bajo el liderazgo de Niño Guerrero, Tocorón se convirtió en una de las prisiones más notorias del país, en gran parte debido a la política no oficial del gobierno venezolano de entregar el control de algunas prisiones, entre ellas Tocorón, a jefes criminales conocidos como pranes.
• Vio Demos: El encarcelamiento masivo, de hecho, es una de las causas del surgimiento del Tren de Aragua y de otros grupos de crimen organizado en Caracas. Peor aún, cuando el gobierno se dio cuenta de que no podía ganar ni tampoco seguir derramando sangre, pactó con las bandas una reducción de homicidios y secuestros a cambio de dejarlas gobernar numerosos territorios de la zona centro sur de la capital venezolana.

Venezuelan authorities even had the nerve to deny the existence of TdA. And of course we can't leave out the Chilean investigation that alleges a current minister is involved. Regioncalifornia (talk) 05:36, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

Both sources focus primarily on the activities of the Tren de Aragua in the United States, but they also examine the relationship between the Venezuelan state and this gang. Both rule out the hypothesis of an alliance.

InSight Crime and Vio Demos, which you cite, do not speak of an alliance but of temporary pacts, because the Venezuelan state was no longer able to control certain prisons. This is a situation that has also existed in Mexico, Colombia, and several Central American countries: a failed state sometimes prefers to negotiate a temporary reduction in violence with gangs rather than engage in a war it cannot win, but this does not constitute an alliance in any sense. InSight Crime notes that this pact ended in 2023 with the Venezuelan security forces’ retaking of the Tocorón prison.

This article goes into great detail about the history and activities of the Tren de Aragua, and it does not mention any alliance with Venezuela—on the contrary: Este grupo delictivo consolidó su expansión y transformación después de la muerte de Chávez, en 2013. Desde entonces, con Nicolás Maduro como jefe de Estado, y el abogado Tareck El Aissami como gobernador de Aragua, entre 2012 y 2017, la organización dejó de ser una simple fuerza criminal local, para convertirse, en solo una década, en una organización transfronteriza. Lo consiguieron atacando o enfrentando a las fuerzas de seguridad del régimen bolivariano, a otras bandas de alcance regional, o disputándose territorios en zonas de frontera con los rezagos de agrupaciones, con mayor experiencia y poder.Brez70 (talk) 23:01, 17 June 2026 (UTC)

The sources you cite say they've been cooperating whenever it suits them economically and politically. One of them even says they don't believe their relationship has deteriorated because even after Tocorón, the government never detained the gang's leaders and the TdA still controlled Venezuela's most important gold mine. It also discusses the Chilean case as an example of how they still maintain connections: Rísquez ve el caso de Chile como otro posible ejemplo de que la relación entre los líderes de la banda criminal y el régimen venezolano no se ha deteriorado. Pacts are a form of alliance too.

The source you cite now doesn't add anything new. However in this source says this: Respecto a las conexiones o relaciones que tienen los grupos armados que conforman El Tren de Aragua con el gobierno, todos coinciden en que sí existe una relación permanente con el Estado [...] con altos funcionarios del gobierno como: ministros, gobernadores, alcaldes, jueces y altos funcionarios policiales. Regioncalifornia (talk) 05:05, 18 June 2026 (UTC)