Only after the beginning of the foreign conquests of the Age of Discovery, the autonomous discourse of "Europe" as "the West" began to detach itself from that of "the Christendom", the hitherto dominant identity system in the area, in which was until then subsumed.[1]
- Sources
Why is it a wrong phrasing of the (literally quoted below) source (Delanty 1995)? And why do the changes of KIENGIR (talk · contribs) adhere best to the source?--Asqueladd (talk) 05:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
- Proposals
To improve the phrasing we can add the adverb protractedly. It is a concern posed by KIENGIR and it follows the "slowly" adverb cited in the source.--Asqueladd (talk) 06:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Only after the beginning of the foreign conquests of the Age of Discovery, the autonomous discourse of "Europe" as "the West" began to protractedly
detach itself from that of "the Christendom", the hitherto dominant identity system in the area, in which was until then subsumed.
Comment+Proposal -> I think it is not enough, the phrase ...its own secularised version of Christendom which began to decline as a unifying narrative... should included, since this "protractedly detach itself" does not properly demonstrate we are speaking approx. a 400 years span, not even fully finished. In fact, the unifying narrative became abandoned step-by-step by some means, and not really the Christendom itself.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:48, 8 September 2020 (UTC))
- -----------------------------------------------------------
- Because your close pharaphrasing is misleading/misunderstandable, per your lates edit summary protracted is questionable (this "began to detach itself" phrase is a recent modification, but not satisfactory still), it may be interpreted a severe detachment, which is completely false, and the source does not even use the word "detach".
- On the other hand if I click to the source you provided also here, and head to the Europe in the Age of Modernity abstract, I read i.e. this:
- The idea of Europe is a creation of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, for it was in these centuries that it entered into its own as a secularised version of Christendom which began to decline as a unifying narrative. The Reformation and the seventeenth century wars of religion shattered the unity of Christendom. The Renaissance and the Enlightenment provided the basis for a new secular identity. The idea of Europe henceforth became the cultural model of the West and served as a unifying theme of modernity. But this did not mean that Europe signified a radical break from the Christian world-view. What happened was that the idea of Europe simply became less subservient to the old nexus of Christendom and its alter ego Islam.
- All in all suggesting that that Europe detached from Christendom at the time, is completely false (even exported it in the colonized world outside), it has been a slow process and even after more hundred years and not necessarily became completed, Christendom has been as well in the 19th-20th cenutry a core principle in Europe, even until today in many parts dominant.
- Hence your new addition and phrasing has no consensus, it has to be rephrased properly.(KIENGIR (talk) 06:09, 7 September 2020 (UTC))
All in all suggesting that that Europe detached from Christendom at the time, is completely false (even exported it in the colonized world outside), it has been a slow process and even after more hundred years and not necessarily became completed,
. But that is not the idea of the author and it is not what the article states. It states that after the Age of Discovery the idea of Europe slowly became autonomous (as in not subordinated) from that of Christendom (unlike presumably it was the case until the 15th/16th century). Not that Europe abandoned Christianity. That is your misconception. In the other hand I am citing the Westernisation of Europe chapter. You are citing Europe in the Age of Modernity ("This chapter focuses on the idea of Europe in relation to the great universalist revolutions of modernity") chapter. I don't think they pose any conflicting views (both are after all authored by the same author, lol), just for the record, but the westernisation of Europe could be more in topic for this article (Western Europe).--Asqueladd (talk) 06:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)- Btw. the idea that the "Age of Discovery" is
"marginal"
here (as previously posed by KIENGIR here), is frankly speaking, way way out the line. If that is a concern for removing it from the article, well, that's a bad start. "The acquisition of the New World greatly strengthened a sense of European superiority at a time when the West had failed to defeat the Muslim Orient. In its colonising thrust across the Atlantic a myth was created. This was the European myth of the West, which was in subsequent centuries to become an important part of the identity of North America in the myth of the limitless frontier of the West."
(Delanty 1995, p. 31) "The older ambivalence between Christendom and Europe was thus replaced by a new one with Europe and the West as the shifting signifiers of a rapidly expanding world-system with its epicentre in western Europe."
(Delanty 1995, p. 31)--Asqueladd (talk) 06:33, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
- No, there is no misconception, the "article says" is equal with the bold edit you did with improper paraphrasing, even if you modified it since then, it is the issue (consequently you did not transmit the author's idea properly and what I edited says the author, since it was directly taken from the same source). The two different chapter's content is the perfect demonstration why your close pharaphrasing was wrong (= became detached, etc.).
- Again, please don't address me something I never said (especially if you provide the diff which contradicts your allegation), what I referred that if we list touching centuries or use this term is marginal, considering the main problem was the false representation of the dealing with Christendom. So for, I have to react nothing more, the removal had not any specific reason, but the appropriate summarization from the other chapter I inserted instead.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:43, 8 September 2020 (UTC))
- Proposal 2
If KIENGIR does not disapprove I therefore intend to also add: "The territory of Western Europe became the epicentre of the nascent world-system that followed the expansion to the "New World", with Europe and the West as dominant signifiers". as per (Delanty 1995, p. 31).
- No problem with this, but the fisrt issue has to be solved earlier.(KIENGIR (talk) 02:50, 8 September 2020 (UTC))
- Proposal 3
I'd like to suggest that the lede be rewritten in vernacular English rather than Academispeak. If you want to argue about autonomous discourses, narratives, identity systems, signifiers, and other obfuscatory jargon in the body of the article, that's fine, but how about writing a lede for the article that follows WP:LEDE, and instead presents a "summary of its most important contents" in "a clear, accessible style"? Magic9Ball (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Present your proposal then.(KIENGIR (talk) 01:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC))
References
Delanty, Gerard (1995). "The Westemisation of Europe". Inventing Europe Idea, Identity, Reality. p. 30. doi:10.1057/9780230379657. ISBN 978-0-333-62203-2. Until the late fifteenth century the idea of Europe was principally a geographical expression and subordinated to Christendom which was the dominant identity system in the West. The idea of Europe as the West began to be consolidated in the foreign conquests of the age of 'discovery" (...) "Europe then begins to shed itself of its association with Christendom and slowly becomes an autonomous discourse.
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