User talk:Gingerfruit

Hello, I'm FuzzyMagma. I noticed that you recently removed content from Clothing in Sudan without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:58, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

I reinstated your edit without removing text as you did. Please next time do not remove sourced information without a discussion and also do your edits in small increments, while using edit summary for each edit to explain what you did. FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello @FuzzyMagma - I really appreciate the importance of retaining sourced material, but I’d like to open a discussion about relevance and framing here.

The section I removed focuses on gender inequality and legal restrictions, and while important topics seem more appropriate for an article on Women's Rights in Sudan or Public Order Law (Sudan) rather than “Clothing in Sudan,” which should ideally focus on historical, cultural, and regional variations of dress across Sudanese communities.

My main concern is that:

1. The content does not describe actual traditional garments, styles, or fabrics.
2. It frames women's clothing primarily through punishment and oppression, without explaining the cultural or aesthetic dimensions of what Sudanese women actually wear.
3. The phrase “women are generally accorded a lesser status than men” is a value-laden generalization that may violate Wikipedia’s Neutral Point of View (NPOV) policy.

I suggest placing legal and gender restrictions under a subsection, perhaps titled “Legal restrictions on dress (1991–2019)”, with precise context, and balanced by rich descriptions of regional and ethnic clothing styles (which are currently missing or underdeveloped in the article).

Would love to hear your thoughts and collaborate on improving this. Gingerfruit (talk) 18:55, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

That is a good idea. It keeps the text and the point about how it affects women clothing. I think both of us appreciate how women rights and clothing are linked and the proposed section will solve this problem.

but can you remove the time scale because there are legal and cultural restrictions on what women can ware in Sudan. The legal did not start in 1992, it actually can be traced to the September 1983 laws but better just to leave the section without the time frame. FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:58, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

I just saw the third point, it is actually not NPOV if it is supported by sources. NPOV is about stating opinion as fact, and when you multiple sources saying similar thing, then it is a fact. If you want to rephrase it, please go ahead and do that, if you think it is irrelevant to discussion about clothing, I would also encourage you to remove it (already did) and mention that in your edit summary. happy editing FuzzyMagma (talk) 22:16, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @FuzzyMagma. Really appreciate discussing in good faith. I’ve taken time to research similar articles on Wikipedia, and based on this review, I want to suggest removing the public order law completely. I say this because its framing distort cultural focus of the article.

So when you look at Saudi Arabia’s national dress article or National costume of Indonesia, both countries have had long-standing and in cases more severe legal enforcement around dress and still mandate hijab under Sharia, yet those articles do not mention punitive laws at all. They discuss fabric, history, symbolism, influence and regional diversity of dress. Sudan deserves that same approach. Framing clothing through lens of punishment before even explaining what Sudanese people wear only reinforces a narrative Sudan has long been a victim of. This is especially problematic when article currently says almost nothing about actual clothing heritage.

For example, jalabiya and toub are Sudanese in origin. Even though they can now be found almost everywhere from Sahel to Arabia. Archaeological sites in Kerma (c. 2500–1500 BCE) and Meroitic Period (c. 300 BCE–350 CE) found hundreds of textile fragments recovered from royal pyramids in Sudan further demonstrate a complex clothing culture, often using cotton, a material not yet widely used in Egypt during the same period. Depictions of Nubians in Tomb of Huy (c. 1350 BCE), shown wearing tunics with wide sashes that pre-dates the 25th Dynasty, further illustrate that loose-fitting robes originated here first.

Sudan was also first region to cultivate cotton, and was a recognized textile center, exporting along Nile and into the Sahara. Diversity in Sudan’s clothing today from richly embroidered toub to beaded leffaya of Beja, to leatherwork and indigo-dyed wraps of Nuba and Darfur, reflects a cultural crossroads. Instead, we’re citing oureverydaylife a non-scholarly American lifestyle blog that inaccurately labels Iranian garments like 'Chadur' as Sudanese. This does not meet Wikipedia’s sourcing standards and misinforms readers.

Sudan is often misunderstood and written out of its own history. We have a responsibility to correct that. This article should begin with what Sudanese people wear, the origin of these styles, and Sudan’s global influence on textile culture. I bring 30+ years as a trained historian on Sudan and am just now joining Wikipedia to help strengthen Sudan’s global narrative with evidence based content. With your support, I’d be happy to help build this out using reliable sources and contribute gradually in the weeks ahead.

Thank you again for your time. Gingerfruit (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Here some evidence we can focus on. What do you think?

• Excavations in Meroe and Lower Nubia have uncovered numerous cotton textiles dating back to the end of the 1st century BCE. These findings indicate a well-established cotton-based textile industry in ancient Sudan, distinguishing it from contemporaneous regions where linen and wool were predominant. Yvanez, Elsa. "Building textile archaeology in ancient Sudan." Sudan & Nubia 24 (2020): 142-153.
• Tomb of Huy, Viceroy of Nubia under Tutankhamun, contains wall paintings depicting Nubian figures wearing distinctive garments, including wide sashed tunics show clothing styles resembling jalabiya in ancient Nubians. Wilkinson, Charles K. "Nubian Tribute Presented to the King, Tomb of Huy." The Metropolitan Museum of Art.
• Historical texts like Pliny the Elder's "Natural History," reference cultivation of cotton in ancient Sudan, describing "wool-bearing trees" in Aethiopia. Archaeological studies have confirmed the presence of cotton textiles in Meroe and Lower Nubia shows Sudan's early cotton cultivation. Wozniak, Magdalena Maria, and Elsa Yvanez. "Cotton in ancient Sudan and Nubia: archaeological sources and historical implications." Revue d’ethnoécologie 15 (2019).
• Discoveries of spindle whorls and loom weights in Meroitic archaeological sites indicate advanced textile production techniques. Tools found in various locations including Meroe and Wad ben Naga, highlight complexity and scale of ancient Sudanese textile production. Yvanez, Elsa. "TexMeroe: the archaeology of textile production in the kingdom of Meroe." Academia.edu.
• Research suggests cotton was first domesticated around 5000 BCE in eastern Sudan near Middle Nile Basin. Cultivation and textile production of cotton in Meroë reached a high level by the 4th century BCE, contributing to region's wealth and influence.
• And of course we can't forget to highlight the Sufi clothing of Sudan, because it is very unique.

Gingerfruit (talk) 18:10, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the argument for removing the section about the panel code but a counter example is Fashion in Iran#After 1979 revolution and the hijab. I still think it is relevant. You can move it to the bottom of the page and remove it’s mention from the lead/intro. But you can ignore that fact that Clothing in Sudan for women was dictated by law. Women who wore jeans were publicly thrashed, publicly. The reader will be robbed from a great chance to understand the subject. See Wikipedia is not censored

Once you expanded the article as you described above then you can reduce the section about punishment into a paragraph or a sentence.

One important thing, I really do not want us to focus on this one aspect and I don’t want you to stop editing the article until we agreed on this one issue. You seem to have great experience and deep knowledge about the topic + being motivated to enrich Wikipedia’s content by this topic. So please go ahead and let me know if you need help.

WP:Sudan is excited to have you. FuzzyMagma (talk) 06:51, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Okay that’s a great idea. I’ll start thinking through it more and work on building it out. Let’s continue the conversation if any new ideas come up. Gingerfruit (talk) 08:54, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi can I ask you a question, I saw you edit summary satating "As agreed with OP", what is OP?

Another thing, there is no ban to use LLMs but please when you use ChatGPT just make sure to read the text and confirm that the information actually exist in the source, as these LLM have tendency to hallucinate. FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:36, 29 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi yes, OP as in 'original post(er)' and thanks for the guidance. Gingerfruit (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi @FuzzyMagma, just a quick note. I’ve revised the women’s clothing section to improve accuracy and reflect regional diversity, adding more reliable ethnographic and museum sources esp southern/western Sudan which were previously underrepresented.

I removed reference to "Chadur" as it’s Iranian not part of Sudanese dress. Instead I expanded the section to include region specific practices along widespread use of the toub and show how styles vary across regions and communities. I plan to elaborate on contemporary hijab practices under "Contemporary Clothing" and will expand on men’s clothing, children, accessories-- based on regions just like I did with the women section. Will also build on the legal frameworks like we discussed.

My goal is to be specific and intentional so that Sudan’s cultural diversity is properly reflected. I’ll continue building this out gradually to ensure quality and accuracy. Your input is always welcome. Thanks again for helping shape this article. Gingerfruit (talk) 15:41, 31 May 2025 (UTC)

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