Talk:Abstract art

I would be very grateful if anyone working on this would read the following text to see if it might form the basis of the article. There is more now on its roots in Impressionism etc as suggested by Modernist above.

Abstract art: Wikipedia article, 28 June 2008

Abstract art uses a visual language of form, colour and line to create a composition which exists independently of visual references to the world.^[1] Western art had been, from the Renaissance up to the middle of the 19th century, underpinned by the logic of perspective and an attempt to reproduce an illusion of visible reality. The arts of cultures other than the European had become accessible and showed alternative ways to the artist, of describing visual experience (see:Paul Gauguin, Vincent Van Gogh). By the end of the 19th century many artists felt a need to create a 'new kind of art' which would encompass the fundamental changes taking place in technology, science and philosophy. The sources from which individual artists drew their theoretical arguments were diverse, and reflected the social and intellectual turmoil in all areas of Western culture at that time.^[2]

Abstraction in early art and many cultures Much of the art of earliest peoples: signs and marks on pottery, textiles and inscriptions and paintings on rock ; were simple, geometric and linear forms which might have had a symbolic or decorative purpose.^[3] It is at this level of visual rather than literary meaning that abstract art communicates. One can enjoy the beauty of an Chinese calligraphy or Islamic script, for example, without being able to read it.

Art in the 19th century The two art movements which preceded the development of abstract art were Impressionism and Expressionism. The independence of the artist was growing during the nineteenth century as patronage from the church diminished. An 'objective interest in what is seen', can be discerned from the paintings of John Constable. J M W Turner, Camille Corot and from thence to the Impressionists who continued the 'open air' painting of the Barbizon school. Paul Cezanne had begun as an Impressionist but his aim: to make a logical construction of reality based on a view from a single point ^[4], with modulated colour in flat areas, became the basis of a new visual art, later to be developed into Cubism by George Braque, Pablo Picasso. Expressionism was an emotive reaction to Impressionism and drew influences principally from the work of Edvard Munch and from the Post-Impressionists.

The new art In 1913 the poet Guillaume Appollinaire named the work of Robert and Sonia Delaunay, 'Orphism'. He defined it as,' the art of painting new structures out of elements that have not been borrowed from the visual sphere, but had been created entirely by the artist...it is a pure art'. Early intimations of a new art had been made earlier by James McNeill Whistler who, in his painting 'Nocturne in Black and Gold: The falling Rocket ' (1872) , was placing greater emphasis on visual sensation than the depiction of objects. Since the turn of the century cultural connections between artists of the major European and American cities had become extremely active as they strove to create an art form equal to the high aspirations of Modernism. Ideas were able to cross-fertilize by means of artists books, exhibitions and manifestos so that many sources were open to experimentation and discussion, and formed a basis for a diversity of modes of abstraction. The following extract from,'The World Backwards' , gives some impression of the inter-connectedness of culture at the time:

' David Burliuk's knowledge of modern art movements must have been extremely up-to-date, for the second Knave of Diamonds exhibition, held in January 1912 (in Moscow) included not only paintings sent from Munich, but some members of the German Die Brucke group, while from Paris came work by Robert Delaunay, Henri Matisse and Fernand Leger, as well as Picasso. During the Spring David Burliuk gave two lectures on cubism and planned a polemical publication, which the Knave of Diamonds was to finance. He went abroad in May and came back determined to rival the almanac Der Blaue Reiter which had emerged from the printers while he was in Germany'.

By 1911 many experimental works in the search for this 'pure art' had been created. Frantisek Kupka had painted the Orphist work,'Discs of Newton'.The Rayist (Luchizm) drawings of Natalia Goncharova and Mikhail Larionov, used lines like rays of light to make a construction.Kasimir Malevich completed his first entirely abstract work, the Suprematist, 'Black Square', in 1915. Another of the Suprematist group' Liubov Popova, created the Architectonic Constructions and Spatial Force Constructions between 1916 and 1921. Piet Mondrian was evolving his abstract language, of horizontal and vertical lines with rectangles of colour, between 1915 and 1919, Neo-Plasticism was the aesthetic which Mondrian, Theo van Doesburg and other in the group De Stijl intended to reshape the environment of the future.

Some approaches towards an abstract art Music provides an example of an art form which uses the abstract elements of sound and divisions of time Wassili Kandinsky , himself a musician, was inspired by the possibility of marks and associative colour 'resounding in the soul' . The idea had been put forward by Charles Baudelaire, that all our senses respond to various stimuli but the senses are connected at a deeper aesthetic level. The spiritual dimension Closely related to this, is the idea that art can transcend 'every-day' experience, reaching a spiritual plane. The Theosophical Society popularised the ancient wisdom of the sacred books of India , China in the early years of the century. It was in this context that Mondrian, Kandinsky and other artists working towards an 'objectless state' became interested in the occult as a way of creating an 'inner' object. Geometry The universal and timeless shapes: the circle, square and triangle become the spacial elements in abstract art because they are , like colour, fundamental systems underlying visible reality.

1921-22 Many of the abstract artists in Russia became Constructivists believing that Art was no longer something remote, but life itself. The artist must become a technician, learning to use the tools and materials of modern production. 'Art into life!' was Vladimir Tatlin's slogan , and that of all the future Constructivists. Varvara Stepanova and Alexandre Exter and others abandoned easel painting diverted their energies to theatre design and graphic works. On the other side stood Malevich, Anton Pevsner and Naum Gabo. They argued that art was essentially a spiritual activity; to create the individual's place in the world , not to organise life in a practical, materialistic sense. Many of those who were hostile to the materialist production idea of art left Russia . Anton Pevsner went to France, Gabo went first to Berlin, then to England and finally to America. Kandinsky studied in Moscow then left for the Bauhaus. The revolutionary period when from 1917 to 1921 artists had been free to experiment , was now over and by the 1930s only social realist art was allowed. ^[5]

The Bauhaus 1919-1925 The Bauhaus at Weimar, Germany was founded in 1919 by Walter Gropius.^[6] The philosophy underlying the teaching programme was unity of all the visual and plastic arts from architecture and painting to weaving and stained glass. This philosophy had grown from the ideas of the Arts and Crafts movement in England and the Deutche Werkbund. Among the teachers were Paul Klee, Johannes Itten, Joseph Albers, Anni Albers, Theo van Doesburg and Laslo Maholy-Nagy. In 1925 the school was moved to Dessau and, as the Nazi party gained control in 1932, The Bauhaus was closed. In 1937 an exhibition of degenerate art, 'Entartete Kunst' contained all types of avant-garde art disapproved of by the Nazi party. Then the exodus began: not just from the Bauhaus but from Europe in general; to Paris, London and America. Paul Klee went to Switzerland but many of the artists at the Bauhaus went to America.

Abstraction in Paris and London During the 1930s Paris became the host to artists from Russia, Germany, Holland and other European countries affected by the rise of totalitarianism. Sophie Tauber and Jean Arp colabourated on paintings and sculpture using organic/geometric forms. The Polish Katarzyna Kobro applied mathematically based ideas to sculpture. The many types of abstraction now in close proximity led to attempts by artists to analyse the various conceptual and aesthetic groupings. An exhibition by fourty-six members of the Cercle et Carré group organised by Michel Seuphor ^[7] contained work by the Neo-Plasticists as well as abstracts as varied as Kandinsky, Anton Pevsner and Kurt Schwitters. Criticised by Theo van Doesburg to be too indefinite a collection he publish the journal 'Art Concret' setting out a manifesto defining an abstract art in which the line, colour and surface only, are the concrete reality. Abstraction-Création founded in 1931 as a more open group, provided a point of reference for abstract artists, as the political situation worsened in 1935 , and artists again regrouped , many in London. The first exhibition of British abstract art was held in England in 1935. The following year the more international 'Abstract and Concrete' exhibition was organised by Nicolete Gray including work by Mondrian, Miro, Nicholson and Hepworth. Barbara Hepworth,Ben Nicholson and Gabo moved to St.Ives group in Cornwall to continue their 'constructivist' work. ^[8]

America: abstract expressionism The main movements in modern art, expressionism, cubism, abstraction, surrealism, and dada were represented in New York:Marcel Duchamp had arrived in 1915. Later came Fernand Leger , Piet Mondrian, Jaques Lipchitz, Max Ernst, Andre Breton, who were were just a few of the exiled Europeans^[9]. The climate of freedom in New York allowed all these influences to flourish into a great diversity of styles which became known as the New York school. There was an atmosphere which encouraged discussion and there was opportunity for learning and growing. It became the centre, and artists gravitated towards it; from other places in America as well^[10]. Sam Francis and Richard Diebenkorn came from the West coast. The rich cultural influences brought by the European artists were distilled and built upon by the New York painters, but certain of these became distinctly abstract in their mature work. Mark Rothko, born in Russia, began with strongly surrealist imagery which later dissolved into his powerful colour compositions of the 1950s. The expressionistic gesture and the act of painting itself, became of primary importance to Jackson Pollock and Franz Kline.

Abstract art from 1950s onwards There was a resurgence after the war and into the 1950s of the figurative, as Pop art came to signify the age of consumerism. However, abstraction remained very much in view ; its main themes : the transcendental, the contemplative and the timeless exempified by Barnett Newman and Agnes Martin and Brice Marden: 'Art as Object' as seen in the Minimalist sculpture of Donald Judd and Carl Andre: and thirdly a Matissian lyrical abstraction and sensuous use of colour for example Patrick Heron and Helen Frankenthaler. The distinction between abstract and figurative art has, over the last twenty years, become less defined leaving a wider range of ideas for all artists .80.41.166.203 (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)paula clare (talk) 18:06, 4 August 2008 (UTC) References:

--paula clare (talk) 21:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)80.41.130.88 (talk) 18:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)80.41.130.88 (talk) 21:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)80.41.189.209 (talk) 19:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)paula clare (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)paula clare (talk) 12:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The above is unsatisfactory......too much red ink, too much gratuitous digression, too much basic mis-information, too much dependency on other articles. MAKE A SHORT, SUCCINCT, SELF RELIANT, TEXT. Modernist (talk) 21:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I am referring to all the blue linked articles in my remarks below....and several more that I haven't delineated....Modernist (talk) 17:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

1. Modernist, in reply to your comments above, I would like to remind you that you are just one of the contributors to this article. You have no overall authority to make these unsupported remarks. Your use of capital letters is unnecessary; please explain why you have used them.
2. Abstract art is a main catagory and needs to be very wide and comprehensive in order to make the many links with related articles.
3. I would be interested if you would give one or two examples of 'mis-information'in this article.
4. Will you explain which 'other articles' you are refering to. paula clare (talk) 21:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? Actually I completely agree with you that I have no authority over these pages, I never said that I did, you asked for opinions and I gave you mine. I used capital letters and bold to make a point, although I would think that would have been self-evident. As to inaccuracies above I have already commented, and as Tyrenius suggests add to the article and we will see how it develops. I have worked pretty hard here, my advice to you is to just do your best. I've made substantial contributions to nearly all the linked articles in my comments below. Modernist (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

How about this somewhat overly simplistic line of yours - In England pure abstraction is seen in the work of Ben Nicholson and Patrick Heron, John Hoyland - your strange grammar aside, - Albeit all three are British and wonderful in their own way, they are three vastly different artists, of three vastly different generations, Patrick Heron was a kind of Formalist color field painter who used Matissean imagery on occassion, and who also was a brilliant writer; John Hoyland is a British Color Field, Lyrical Abstractionist with strong roots in American Abstract Expressionism and Ben Nicholson is simply one of the most famous and widely respected British Geometric abstractionists who bears little relation to the other two. Modernist (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

While I haven't had time to read this through, - at first perusal it has good information - but lots of redundencies - Most of this material is already covered by many different articles, there are these articles that simply should be linked: - Orphism (art), Synchromism, Cubism, Russian avant-garde, Suprematism, Constructivism (art), Bauhaus, De Stijl, Geometric abstraction, Hard-edge painting, Abstract expressionism, Color Field, Lyrical Abstraction, Post-painterly abstraction, El Lissitzky, Neo-expressionism, Expressionism, Action Painting, History of painting, Western painting, Impressionism, Post-Impressionism, Neo-Impressionism, Fauvism, Modernism, Late Modernism, Postmodern art, Monochrome painting, Shaped canvas, Minimal art, Postminimalism and others, several others..like Sculpture, with a section on modernist sculpture, and Wassily Kandinsky, Piet Mondrian, Paul Klee, Fernand Leger, and many other artists who are covered in detail by individual articles. In my opinion this article should attempt a relatively economic and modest definition and position - given the scope and breadth of the related articles. Please reference all additions. I will try to carefully read the above in the next few days...Modernist (talk) 01:42, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I've quickly gone over the text in the article, and I edited what I could. I think it needs references and I am concerned about any copyright violations the previous editor might have made. Please reference all material from outside sources. The text needs work. Modernist (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

So much of the material was plain wrong, impossibly vague, I'm trying to rewrite as much as I can that is reasonably accurate and at least not a copyright violation. Modernist (talk) 21:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

In Italy the early abstract works (collaborations with Kandinsky and Malevich) were done by many artists: I've included only the two "school leaders" (Manlio Rho and Mario Radice) because of the relative importance given (so far!!) to italian abstract movement by international market. If you may think useful to add a specific paragraph on Italy, let me know. ArtDMaster (talk) 4 Sept 2008 —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

"Abstract art uses a visual language of form, color and line to create a composition which exists independently of visual references to the world." I would recommend consulting multiple sources for the definition. Many other sources explain abstract art to actually have a visual reference. Art that exists independantly from a visual refernce is "non-representational", not abstract. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.174.222.195 (talk) 20:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Would a link to http://www.redbubble.com/abstract-art be acceptable and relevant ? This is a group on a commercial site that gathers (at the moment, but keeps growing) 1800 artists and 9000 non objective abstract artworks (no registration needed to browse). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.160.53.229 (talk) 00:19, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

No. It's a nice link though. It doesn't add relevancy to an historical overview and it's basically a commercial site....Modernist (talk) 00:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I was afraid that would be the case... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.160.53.229 (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

An article on Wikipedia does not need a critical summing up: it should be purely informative. This section is PO.A list of working abstract artists chosen to represent a range of ouvres, to direct readers further, is all that is necessary.(Paula Clare (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC))

I agree. In fact I think the section doesn't even need the listing of artists. The question that might be addressed, if there is any information on it, is what characterizes abstraction in the twenty-first century in distinction from earlier periods? Bus stop (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

This looks to me like a violation of WP:OR, it is placed here pending the outcome of 2 AfDs, here and here ...Modernist (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

In an iconographic perspective, the concept of abstract art refers to the loss of recognizable figurative elements, which in figurative art are precisely those that allow us to read the work. However, we must point out that all art is abstract: it is a reproduction of nature, not nature itself^[1].
Magritte clearly expressed it in his painting entitled The Treachery of Images, a work which is a pipe, but the text warns us: This is not a pipe.
In the Introduction to his classic book: Studies in Iconology: Humanist Themes in the Art of the Renaissance (1939), Erwin Panofsky reminds us, through examples of confusion between the medieval depictions of Judith and Salome, how knowledge of historical and literary sense of the images allows to understand them or not. Thus the images of the Christian tradition are understandable only to him who dominates the biblical texts.
So all images are potentially abstract: as a representation is an abstraction of the real world, both because it is not what it shows and because its meaning is only understandable in a symbolic sense predetermined^[2].
In this sense, abstract art is primarily an abstraction or loss of meaning as a loss of recognizable theme. Being the theme composed by a set of motives predetermined by tradition. The theme is the result of a consensus between the visual artist and the audience, marked by a tacit agreement about the meaning of what is being shown^[3].
For example in the surrealist art can still recognize the visual content (face, body, figures in general) but there is more than clear theme. The theme loses its social character (it has in the tradition, christian for instance, in which everyone recognizes the crib or the crucifixion), and becomes the representation of an individual feeling.
The first loss of the conventional sense, art is the concept of thematic abstraction^[4]: the motives or figures are recognizable, but the theme is no longer.
As part of the evolution history of abstract art, it is clear that the thematic abstraction precedes the total loss of representation. Symbolist, cubist or surrealist movements continue to present recognizable forms, although transformed, or reduced to their simplest form (geometric shapes in cubist art). The movements as informalism or abstract expressionism are posterior, in which not only the theme is lost, but the motives or the figures themselves disappear in favor of splashes of color with no equivalents in nature. This is the ultimate form of abstraction called formal abstraction^[5] where not only the theme itself but also the isolated figures become unrecognizable.

In browsing articles, I came upon one called Abstract figurative. I nominated it for speedy deletion as nonsense, which was denied. Thoughts? FigureArtist (talk) 04:41, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, the article has been added to AfD, but as a neologism, not nonsense.FigureArtist (talk) 04:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone know of the song "four minutes and thirty three seconds"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.76.50 (talk) 23:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Is abstract art an art movement? I understand an art movement from a historical sense, but I am unsure if abstract art is an actual art movement. Just asking as this is categorized into Category:Art movements but i didnt notice anywhere in the article saying it is an art movement. Brad7777 (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you are right that "abstract art" is probably not an "art movement", except perhaps if art history is looked at over the very long-term encompassing centuries, and even then I don't think the entirety of "abstract art" would constitute one "art movement". But I am not troubled with somewhat inexact Categorization as it could be helpful to a reader just perusing general groupings of types of art in Category:Art movements. Bus stop (talk) 12:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It is not my intention to enter the ongoing debate about who created the first abstract painting. The addition of the list of works created between 1909 and 1913 (just posted in the article) is meant only to give examples of abstract paintings that were produced at the time; something previously absent from the article. Works by Picabia, Kandinsky, Kupka, R. Delaunay, Survage and Mondrian are included in the list. These were arguably the most important figures involved with the production of abstract art during the crucial years mentioned. Coldcreation (talk) 10:23, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

In this article, Abstract Art (and many other Wikipedia articles where it appears), the caption for Malevich's Black Square indicated the date 1913. I've since corrected the date to 1915 (if this is indeed his first Black Square). I've also moved it down from the top of the article to the Russian avant-garde section, where it is better appreciated.

"The Black Square of Kazimir Malevich is one of the most famous creations of Russian art in the last century. The first Black Square was painted in 1915 to become the turning point in the development of Russian avant-garde. Black Square against white background became the symbol, the basic element in the system of the art of suprematism, the step into the new art. The artist himself created several variants of the Black Square. All four Squares painted by Malevich from 1915 to the early 1930s developed the same idea." [...] "The last Square, despite the author's note 1913 on the reverse, is believed to have been created in the late twenties or early thirties [...]" Source

(Bold added)

"For an unrealized production of Pobeda nad solntsem in 1915, Malevich proposed a black square as a backdrop. At the exhibition 0.10, the Black Square (1915; Moscow, Tret’yakov Gal.), painted on a square canvas surrounded by a margin of white, was hung across the corner of the separate room where works by Malevich and his followers were displayed; it was announced as the essential Suprematist work." Source

Robert Delaunay's Le Premier Disque from 1912-1913 has replaced Black Square at the top of the page. Completed more than two years prior to Black Square by Malevich, Delaunay's work is considered by many art historians as one of the first important abstract paintings, along with works by Kandinsky, Picabia and others. Coldcreation (talk) 17:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It is included for a pertinent reason. To clarify..

What is the difference between Shapes and Forms?

• Shapes and forms are used to describe objects on paper and real life respectively.

• Shapes are in 2D while forms are in 3D.

• Shapes require height and width only while forms require depth as well to be described.

188.29.117.157 (talk) 19:48, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

On the Abstract expressionism talk page there is beginning a discussion of merging this page into that one.ElijahBosley ^{(talk ☞)} 18:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

What an atrocious idea...Modernist (talk) 19:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

screaming no. they're NOT the same. no no no Cramyourspam (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

As part of the cleanup of User:Neelix's redirects we found he created 69 different redirects to this one article. I strongly suspect many of them need to be re-targeted. deleted as nonsense terms, or are to genaric to target here, but rather then have the generalists at RfD wade through them I'd like to post them here for discussion. If you think one or more should be deleted or adjusted please take action. Thanks Legacypac (talk) 23:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

• Abstract artist
• Abstract artists
• Abstract artwork
• Abstract artworks
• Abstractionists
• Abstractionistic
• Abstractionistical (made up word, the few search results seem to come from Wikipedia - requested speedy)
• Abstractionistically (made up word, the few search results seem to come from Wikipedia - requested speedy)
• Non-objective artist
• Non-objective artists
• Non-objective artwork
• Non-objective artworks
• Nonobjective art
• Nonobjective artist
• Nonobjective artists
• Nonobjective artwork
• Nonobjective artworks
• Figureless
• Figurelessness (invented word, speedy)
• Figurelessly (invented word, speedy)
• Nonfigurative
• Non figurative
• Non-figurative art
• Nonfigurative art
• Non figurative art
• Nonfigurativity
• Non-figurativity
• Non figurativity
• Non-figuratively
• Nonfiguratively
• Non figuratively
• Non-figuration
• Nonfiguration
• Non figuration
• Non-figurations
• Nonfigurations
• Non figurations
• Non-figurational
• Nonfigurational
• Non figurational
• Non-figurational art
• Nonfigurational art
• Non figurational art
• Nonfigurative artist
• Non-figurative artist
• Non figurative artist
• Nonfigurative artists
• Non-figurative artists
• Non figurative artists
• Nonfigurativism
• Non figurativism

I nominated the following for deletion as not specific enough - primary meaning of non-objective is not abstract art.

• Non-objective
• Nonobjective
• Non-objectives
• Nonobjectives
• Non-objectivism
• Nonobjectivism
• Non-objectivist
• Nonobjectivist
• Non-objectivists
• Nonobjectivists
• Non-objectivistic
• Nonobjectivistic
• Non-objectivistically
• Nonobjectivistically

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Moved from User talk:Coldcreation

Hi Coldcreation. Thanks for your message. I'm pleased to be able to talk about this edit,I'm just getting to know the system. My edit proposes that there is a concise definition of 'Abstract Painting'as art which does not refer to the visible world. This appears to be the historical and academically supported meaning.For example, Fauvism and cubism orphism rayism and much of futurism were representational in that they showed recognizable forms. The breakthrough to the abstract was fueled by a desire to create a new way of expressing abstract, spiritual, transcendental ideas.Paulaclarewilliams (talk) 22:50, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

@Paulaclarewilliams: Are you User:Paula clare? Coldcreation (talk) 05:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I can give you examples (some from the gallery section of the article) where abstract paintings or sculptures do indeed refer to the visible world (disproving your claim):

• Robert Delaunay, Simultaneous Windows on the City, 1912, Hamburger Kunsthalle
• Robert Delaunay, Simultaneous Contrasts: Sun and Moon, 1912–13, Museum of Modern Art
• Pablo Picasso, Head (Tête), 1913–14, Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art
• Henri Matisse, French Window at Collioure, 1914, Centre Georges Pompidou
• Albert Gleizes, Brooklyn Bridge (Pont de Brooklyn), 1915, Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum,
• Joseph Csaky, Deux figures (Two Figures), 1920, relief, Kröller-Müller Museum
• Fernand Léger, The Railway Crossing, 1919, Art Institute of Chicago

...just to name a few. Coldcreation (talk) 09:56, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Paulaclarewilliams: @Paula clare: you are one and the same right? Coldcreation (talk) 20:01, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I did have the user name some time ago : Paula clare, but just recently I tried to log in and my password didn't work so I got a new account as Paulaclarewilliams. I would remove my old one if I knew how. All I am trying to do with the Abstract Art article is make a clear distinction between abstract art and figurative art so that anyone looking it up has a concise definition. There were many artists around 1900 who were attempting to find a way towards a new non-representational art. An art that did not refer to the visible world, that was able to express abstract ,spiritual,transcendental ideas. It was a NEW WORLD they were coming to terms with, and it was a great leap that they made into this new art. All the artists you mention were almost there, in fact the poet Apollinaire saw in Delaunay's work a 'pure painting' where colour freed from the constraints of representation and became like music.I didn't choose the examples on this page and would not have done so, because they are examples of figurative painting. Delaunay was certainly almost there though still giving his paintings titles which refer to actual objects.Picasso's work was cubist and therefor figurative, and he intentionally always kept the figure,the object as the focus of a painting.Thank you for the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulaclarewilliams (talk • contribs) 00:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Your password apparently did work. You signed in and edited articles on 6, 9 and 10 June as User:Paula clare. Then, later that evening, on 10 June, you signed in and edited as User:Paulaclarewilliams, with an edit that I reverted. Why the two accounts? Coldcreation (talk) 03:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

According to my revision history page the last time I edited as Paula clare was 6 June 2017. The next time I tried to log in my password was not accepted and I asked to reset it.I did not receive a reset link on my email.I then signed in again as Paulaclarewilliams and made a new password.If you suspect me of being duplicious I can assure you my one intention is to improve this article because I care a lot about this subject and have in the past contributed to it,much of which still remains.I am not going to waste time further, battling against destructive unsympathetic comments.I would have been happy discussing points in an open fair-minded minded manner.Obviously picking up faults about how I am logged in are more important than responding to my discussion (see above).

• The solution to the success of this article is very simple. I would like to suggest that 1. A clear definition of abstract art is made ,as compared to representational art. 2. Following from this definition, a history of the movements in art up to 1900 which led to abstract art.3.Influences of :other cultures; mysticism; music; the machine; science, on the development of abstraction . 4.The abstract artists and work from 1903. 5. The Bauhaus,European and American Abstract art. 6.Abstract artists and their work at the present time.*****......???? :) Have a good time.Best of luck.Paulaclarewilliams (talk) 13:24, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

According to your user contribution page, you signed in, edited and uploaded images as User:Paula clare on 9 and 10 June. I'm trying to figure out why you are not forthcoming about this. First you claim, as Paulaclarewilliams, you're "just getting to know the system", and yet you've been editing on and off at Wikipedia since January 2007, as Paula clare. Then you claim, when asked about it, that you "did have the user name some time ago". Yet you've been using that other account until a couple of days ago, contrary to your assertion that your password did not work. It did in fact work. I suggest you read WP:SIGNS and WP:Multiple accounts. As far as Abstract art, I understand that you would like to define a clear delineation between non-objective and figurative. In some cases that can be done. In others not. The artists working in abstraction were too different, with differing intentions and impetus. This is not clear cut black and white, but all shades of grey as well. That said, feel free to edit the article, but your claims and subsequent citations will be rigorously scrutinized, so too your grammar and punctuation. Note, above you wrote "Picasso's work was cubist and therefor figurative", yet his work Head, 1913-14 (see below), is obviously abstract and based on reference to the visible world. How do you reconcile this fact with your assertion that abstract painting "does not refer to the visible world". Note too the references to the natural world in the other works as well. Coldcreation (talk) 17:10, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

• 
  Albert Gleizes, 1910–12, Les Arbres (The Trees), oil on canvas, 41 x 27 cm. Reproduced in Du "Cubisme", 1912
• 
  Arthur Dove, 1911–12, Based on Leaf Forms and Spaces, pastel on unidentified support. Now lost
• 
  Francis Picabia, 1912, Tarentelle, oil on canvas, 73.6 x 92.1 cm, Museum of Modern Art, New York. Reproduced in Du "Cubisme"
• 
  Wassily Kandinsky, 1912, Improvisation 27 (Garden of Love II), oil on canvas, 47 3/8 x 55 1/4 in. (120.3 x 140.3 cm), The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Exhibited at the 1913 Armory Show
• 
  Pablo Picasso, 1913–14, Head (Tête), cut and pasted colored paper, gouache and charcoal on paperboard, 43.5 x 33 cm, Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art, Edinburgh
• 
  Henri Matisse, 1914, French Window at Collioure, Centre Georges Pompidou, Paris

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I recently added this photo to the article, to illustrate the use of abstraction in antiquity. Another editor removed the photo, commenting "That's not abstract, it's an eye."

Other comments? Looks abstract to my eye..... TIA, Pete Tillman (talk) 13:01, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No response or comments, so I'm putting it back in. --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a source for using that image? It's not mentioned in the text as far as I can tell. Why would it be so close to the top of the page, only the third image? What's the significance and why that particular piece/style? The article mainly talks about abstraction in the recent sense while talking about some precedents. It appears to be cherry-picking to include that image without context, particularly in that position on the page -- the reader is lead to believe that it's an important work rather than a mere illustration of something that appears abstract in our sense. And per your last edit summary, you too are edit warring. freshacconci (✉) 03:34, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

I too would like to see a reliable source that equates this pottery to abstract art. Until then, I would keep it out of the article. Coldcreation (talk) 06:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Mark Rothko, Jackson Pollock all had a unique streak in their paintings and so had other abstract painters. Can we talk about this uniqueness as signature style in abstract art?

Links under discussion: https://www.artexpertswebsite.com/artist/rothko/ https://www.moma.org/collection/works/78594 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/now-computer-can-differentiate-between-real-jackson-pollocks-and-fakes-180954300/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SriSriChinmaya (talk • contribs) 04:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Piet Mondriaan, 1939-1942 - Composition 10.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:08, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

"Non-figurative art explained" external link is... Steroids?! I was looking forward to that link because I'm trying to understand WHY various people say "Non-figurative" does not equal "abstract" (I have no idea on the subject personally, still trying to learn) BUT could not find any real explanation in Wikipedia (or Wikipédia or Spanish Wikipedia for that matter). Heck, life is though; please find someone qualified to patch it! 2605:B100:D16:838F:2D58:1FF5:D383:E6FE (talk)Alainr345 — Preceding undated comment added 17:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

The steroids link has been removed. Wikipelli ^Talk 18:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Why she is not mentioned in this topic as a pioneer of abstract art?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilma_af_Klint 82.81.35.210 (talk) 16:36, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Her name appears three times in the article, and one of her paintings is reproduced. Coldcreation (talk) 09:06, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Modernist, I'm strongly disagree with your the cleanup message and talk page assessment revert. I don't think that my cleanup message (Too much focus at abstract art's history, too little focus about the subject itself. May be more suitable to move the content under "History of abstract art" and rewrite the whole article.) is not a valid concern. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

• This historical important article is both accurate and internationally focused. If you desire more information to be provided; more explanation regarding the meaning of abstraction then prohaps you actually might add some edits. You have no consensus for your WP:POV...Modernist (talk) 13:41, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

  I agree that these information is important. However, take a look at music, it focuses not just about music history but also music's basic components and such. Maybe both of us should be bold and help improve this article, after all, that's what these clean up messages there are for. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

  Modernist, I've just rearranged the sections a bit and will add a bit more information later. Hopefully I've contributed something more than just tagging problems now. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I've reassessed to C-class, as the article in its current form is pretty chaotic and needs substantial cleanup (citation tag being just one of its issues). If there is anyone here willing to collaborate on cleaning up and rewriting content, please let me know. I'd be happy to coordinate a group effort. Some of the more pressing stuff:

• scope of the article, historically and geographically (currently, it is primarily focused on Western art and I just removed unsourced content on Islamic art; it might be a good idea to focus just on Europe for the purpose of this article as there is substantial risk of fundamentally misrepresenting the meaning of abstraction in East Asian Art and other non-Western cultures, not to mention it reinforces colonialist mentality of "center" and "periphery")
• methodological framework (here it would be helpful to think of a bigger narrative to approach the diversity of abstract vocabularies in European and American art, perhaps by loosely following and critiquing institutional frameworks including MoMA, Barr's 1936 Cubism and Abstract art exhibition and then 2012 Leah Dickerman's Inventing Abstraction, etc.)
• organization (this is closely related to the points above)

These are just some preliminary thoughts. I would love to continue the conversation with those interested in improving this important WP:WPVA article. Ppt91^talk 19:29, 29 April 2023 (UTC)