Talk:Almoravid dynasty

When a political movement departs from a location then spreads to southern tribes (lamtuna and Gudala) whom its leaders sought guidance from the movement founders to restore order, piety, and eliminate degeneracy, it would be unreasonable to say that the movement and the political order departed from these tribes (Lamtuna and Gudala) as suggested in the header section. The political, religious, and military movement departed from Aglou around Tiznit area in present day Morocco (see in this same page the origin of schools of Waggag ibn Zallu in the <Name section>). In fact the founder Abdallah Ibn Yassine died in a military conquest against Barghawata in the north near Romani area before the Almoravids became an empire. In summary, the political state and rise of Almoravids had begun in Morocco, this is to be stated in the header section. Verify and edit accordingly (The same sources apply) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.250.237.93 (talk) 04:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton I do not want to appear to be smart, but I relied on the description of Oxford and UNESCO that the Almoravids were founded in southern Morocco in the Western Sahara by the Lamtuna and gudala.^[1][2] Kozioğlu (talk) 14:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

High quality RS stating that they invaded Morocco can be cited ad nauseam. M.Bitton (talk) 14:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton From the way you speak, your personal biases are clear, but the Almoravid state did not invade Morocco, but rather united it, and it was launched within the lands of Morocco. And if we go according to your logic, then the Rightly-Guided Caliphate was launched from Mecca and invaded the Arabian Peninsula?🤔😅 Kozioğlu (talk) 14:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton I mean the Rashidun Caliphate, Translation error Kozioğlu (talk) 14:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 14:19, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton My edit was not a personal attack but a correction to the article. There is incorrect information although it is clear. Kozioğlu (talk) 14:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The article says " a coalition of the Lamtuna, Gudala, and Massufa nomadic Berber tribes lived in what is now Mauritania and the Western Sahara " yet, Lamtuna's territory, known as "Bilad Lamtuna" (the country of the Lamtuna), was actually located in the southern region of Sous-Massa, Morocco, stretching as far as Guelmim-Oued Noun and Laayoune-Sakia El-Hamra, according to many historians such as Al-Idrisi and Ibn Khaldun, there's also historians who said uqba ibn Nafi fought them in his conquest to the far west exactly in between present sous massa and guelmim-oued noun 102.38.8.5 (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The statement is written according to what the cited sources say. If you want to argue for changes or additions, please provide reliable (secondary) sources that clearly support your proposal. R Prazeres (talk) 04:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I ask to edit the article including Morocco because I said bilad lamtuma starts from it's south, also there are a lot of sources about masufa and gudala too but let's start with lamtuma, in the book "Nuzhat al-Mushtaq" by Al-Idrisi, a 12th-century muslim historian, geographer and cartographer, he wrote

- ( But as for the land of Nul al-aksa and Tazkaght, they are the country of lamtuna of the desert, and lamtuma is a tribe from Sanhaja )

- ( There is also a stone called 'Hajar al-Bihit' on its shore, which is a well-known stone among the people of al-maghrib al-aqsa, the stone is sold at a good price, especially in the country of lamtuna )

- ( the city Nul lamta and the city of azgi to lamta too, and as for the city of Nul in the west, it is three days journey from the sea and thirteen stages from Sijilmasa, the city of Nul is a large and populous city situated on a river that flows from the eastern direction, and on it there are the tribes of lamtuna and lamta )

- ( And they are nomads who move around but do not settle in a place, like the lamtuna of the Sahara who are in al-maghreb al-aqsa )

You could read the book or I could give the links to the pages in Arabic so you can verify the texts 102.38.8.5 (talk) 13:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

We're not going to go out of our way to include what is contradicted by the overwhelming majority of reliable sources. M.Bitton (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You're saying that the 12th century historian al-idrisi who lived in Almoravid empire isn't reliable source? There's ibn khaldun, there's abd-alouahid, there's al-hamiri, what's a reliable source to you if it's not from them 102.38.8.5 (talk) 14:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The lamtuna and their allied/subject tribes of massoufa and Juddala are not from modern day Morocco. The Almoravids actually conquered both the northern Sahara then the south of modern day Morocco as shown in RS. Consider reading these (which also includes contemporary Arab sources that are displayed far better than your assertions).

If you’re just going to keep ignoring reliable sources then I don’t think there is anything more to say. Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

the idrisi and ibn khaldun and al-hamiri and abd al-ouahed and abi al-fida and many others mentioned bilad lamtuna in southern Morocco from Gulmem to sakia el-hamra, they are also mentioned in southern Morocco when uqba ibn nafi fought them before reaching the ocean, those without mentioning complicated sources such as al-bakri who states by the liter that their maintain is near taliouen, more than that al idrisi who lived among them states that lamtuna wasn't native to the sahara Desert they were rather from the north and pushed southwards by the other tribes which ibn khaldun aslo confirms and the Mauritian historian al-hassan mentions it

if you'll intentionally ignote all these ssources arelay on modern publications then that's Wikipedia for yound

Wikipedia relies on modern publications as reliable source then that's another story, 102.38.8.5 (talk) 16:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello everyone, If I were in IP's position, I would have referred to Al-Maghrib Al-Aqsa instead of Morocco. As Al-Idrisi mentioned, the Lamtuna were located in southern Al-Maghrib Al-Aqsa. Whether he meant Morocco or Mauritania, I'm not sure. Also, @Nourerrahmane, your addition is not accurate at all. The source you cited does not support your claim. I suggest you revert it yourself if you acknowledge your mistake. The location of Lamtuna stretches from Oued Souss (In southern Morocco) to Mauritania. Here are some other sources that provide a more precise description of the Lamtuna's location. Tyben^Welcome 17:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm just going to ignore your comment, please don't ping me. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

In that case i'm going to revert your addition myself. And remember Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Tyben^Welcome 17:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually I wouldn't mind if they add it as " Maghreb al-aksa " while removing Maurtiana or just leaving it as it is adding " Morocco " although many historians don't count Maurtiana as part of " al-maghrib al-aksa " such as al-idrisi who calls it " bilad qamrunia " but there's al-qalqandishi who said it's a part of " Maghreb al-aksa " so this matter is up to them 102.38.8.5 (talk) 17:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Mauritania is mentioned in reliable sources, so it's impossible to remove. However I already cited (above) sources that give description of Lamtuna's location, it stretches from Oued Souss in southern Morocco to modern Mauritania, I think those sources must be followed here. Tyben^Welcome 18:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't insist on removing Maurtiana instead I'd ask they add Morocco, Lamtuna didn't inhabit all of modern day Maurtiana nor all of Morocco they mainly lived in the sahara, tho I wouldn't mind adding " southern Morocco " if they want to make it specific 102.38.8.5 (talk) 19:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I say again, the lamtuna have nothing to do with Morocco prior to the almoravid conquest of Morocco, the very fact that al-Idrisi mentions south Morocco goes against an army of primary and secondary sources alike, the lamtuna is the southmost Sanhadja tribe, i wouldn't even agree on other northern tribes such as Massufa and Godala or lamta having any kind of sedentary presence in Morocco (prior to the Almoravid conquest), simply because Morocco was not home of these Sanhdaja tribes. It was the Sahara, which is neither part of the Maghreb al Aksa or modern day Morocco. The source given by the disruptive sock speaks about Awdghaust and southern-central Mauritania region as a birthplace of the Almoravid movement and speaks of the politics of the involved Saharan tribes prior to the Almoravid state in that specific area. if anything, the Noun river is the northmost a nomadic tribe can venture into. Overall, this has literally nothing to do with modern day Morocco and nowhere serves the purpose of this article.

This is all i will say. Nourerrahmane (talk) 20:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Lamtuna are mentioned in Morocco before the establishment of Aoudghast, again it's mentioned that Uqba ibn Nafi fought them before reaching the ocean. Ibn Khaldun mentioned it, Ibn Abu Dinar mentioned it, Al-Hasan Al-Ourtilani in the 12th century mentioned it, the Mauritanian historian Al-Hasan ben Al-Amine mentioned it, and many more did, note that all the area under the modern-day Suss-Massa region is considered "Sahara" by the historians, and again Al-Hassan also said Lamtuna isn't native to the Sahara; it was in Daara, then immigrated south, Gabriel Camps also says that all Sanhaja aren't native to the Sahara; they immigrated south, Ibn Khaldun mentioned it, saying they were on the north and were forced to move to the Sahara, Al-Idrisi says the same, adding that they were pushed by other Berbers to the Sahara, which is close to the ocean, The fact that you argue on a topic which you don't know anything about while acting as if Al-Idrisi who lived among them and traveled throughout the land, is some modern French historian who published his book in 2005, and gave me sources that you yourself haven't read while ignoring all the other sources means you're an Algerian, which doesn't surprise me. It's Wikipedia after all, I would ask you to avoid replaying to me, I'm not into empty arguments with people like you "respectfully". 102.38.8.5 (talk) 21:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I think this is the appropriate time to call an admin to intervene. @Ad Orientem, could you please deal with Nourerrahmane's disruptive behavior here? first they refused to communicate : "I'm just going to ignore your comment, please don't ping me." And now they are possibly referring to me as "disruptive sock", not to mention that the source they cited doesn't support their claim which also contradicts many other credible sources. Tyben^Welcome 21:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Nourerrahmane Please be polite and assume good faith when interacting with other editors. Thank you. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:16, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

My apologies. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any idea about "Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle"? Also, when you make an edit, you should expect opposition. It's like you never edited here. Tyben^Welcome 17:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)