Talk:Atilla Engin

Far too many of these are to one source: www.atillaengin.com. It would be nice if the links went to the actual magazine and newspaper articles described. pablo 18:54, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Far too many of these are to one source because Danish Papers and Turkish papers alike did not yet digitalize their archives beyond year 2000. Most of these activities took place in the eighties and only Atilla Engin himself has these articles stem from the respective papers and Jazz magazines. I already explained this some weeks ago while editing. It seems you didn't notice.

Having said that, I would like to know why did you delete lots of things and for that matter not only the integrity of the article is compromised, the lay-out is messed up too, which I edited for some time now?

• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students

What was wrong with this section:

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a monthly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører."^[1]

• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

What happened to the link to the source?

• What was wrong with these codes in the beginning section of the article?

Both, Danish and Turkish newspapers (Jazz magazines) called him such. I provided the exact translation in the article:

He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue.^[2]

• Atilla as Teacher, inspirator and motivator

Why did you remove this below section?

Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark coded TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album.^[3]

If you are here to communicate, help and guide, then, do so.

Now please come up with good-sound explanation to each of my above questions. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

You would have to explain what 'coded' means in these instances before I can be of much help to you with those sections.
Ideally this article would be a biography of Engin, properly referenced, mentioning the bands he has played with, what he's done, and a discography, writen in neutral language.
Interesting that the Danish Wikipedia has no article. pablo 20:46, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• In these instances "coding" him should be considered as calling him, naming, labeling, attributing to, ticketing, tagging, you name it. (Not the one "Coded as saying")
• I'll not be surprised if someone shows up with an article in Danish Wikipedia since all references, timeline and the pictures are out there.

I'll have to believe and I do, that you are here to make it not to brake it.

Now, before we go to the next phase, please explain. Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well timeline is one of the things that I think could be improved. The article needs fewer headings and a more logical structure. The sections

• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students
• European Music Year 1985 - Atilla Engin Group Represents Denmark Abroad
• Composer Of The Year
• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

don't really merit a separate section each. The information in them would be best as prose, in a logical, chronological format. The lists of artists who performed at the same festivals as Engin would also be better integrated into text.

A couple of magazines referred to him as a cultural ambassador. This fact did not need mentioning four times in the article.

"He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue." Look at what those link to. Do they need to be wikilinked?

I have asked for help here, you may find that some regulars at the jazz project can help you.

What do you mean by "before we go to the next phase"?  pablo 21:49, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

1- Before I prepared this article I made my research. It's the same way everybody else does with many subtitles, in terms of artist biographies.

• As a teacher, aspirer, (this one is better,) motivator
• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students
• European Music Year 1985 - Atilla Engin Group Represents Denmark Abroad
• Composer Of The Year
• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

These subtitles give perspective to the works of Engin through out the years as performing Jazz artist, leader, teacher and organizer, not to mention he is a composer, arranger and conductor too. He certainly made a difference in people's lives. So, I strongly believe that these subtitles should be considered.

2- You said: "A couple of magazines referred to him as a cultural ambassador. This fact did not need mentioning four times in the article." Yes, you are right. One time should be enough for Engin (in the very beginning of the article,) but, Danish papers also called Engin and his Jazz conservatory students as Cultural ambassadors somewhere else. (Cross-Cultural, Educational Project.)

3- "He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue." Look at what those link to. Do they need to be wikilinked?

Of course not. If you think it's not necessary, I'll go along with your advice. On the other hand, all others (fusion, drummer, percussionist, composer, arranger and so on) are Wikilinked. That's why I did it.

4- You changed subtitle to TYRKIS intead of Atilla as teacher, inspirator (aspirer,) motivator This is not about TYRKIS. It is about the skills of Engin and how he succeeded to prepare these youngsters for a much higher goal. They even won first prize in Dortmund Germany. So, it's about Engin.

5- Maybe it was a good idea to ask help from Wikiproject Jazz but Engin is a Jazz/Fusion artist. More, a World Music artist.

6- The "next phase" is that I do not know your ties with the artists, musicians and so on.

Since the integrity of the article is in accordance with the integrity of the artist and his accomplishments, in terms of his work he's done for his students as he dedicated his life to them so that they could reach their dreams, and also in terms of his cross-cultural projects which helped create awareness about the differences people have and about them learning to live together in harmony.

Please take a look at the article again as a whole and try to make connection with what I just said.

Try for instance, to see the importance of the big success of an ordinary, evening-class music students reaching the famed Jazzhus Montmartre. It's a dream Pablo. They did it. And then their picture and the list of roosters next to it who all happen to be famous Jazz recording (Wikipedia) artists. Who wouldn't be proud of them? Who wouldn't attribute their smiling picture to the true fairytale which were written by them?

World is changing, so is The Wikipedia.

I wouldn't use the same tone or style if I was writing an article about the city of Bristol in England or about a famed attorney.

We do not want a boring Wikipedia. Although Wikipedia is the best encyclopedia with the utmost level of quality and accurate information, and thanks to all of us, still, we want an interesting-exciting Wikipedia too, so that, it's fun reading/seeing, going through while learning.

What do you think?

Now, with all respect and since my work messed up totally, please do restore it to the last version of my edit, then, let's start from the scratch going through piece by piece.

Would you please?

Sincerely best. Fusion is the future (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

What you're saying is basically "Atilla Engin is fantastic, he has had a long career in music and made a lot of kids very happy therefore this article should be preserved exactly as I wrote it". Unfortunately that's not how Wikipedia works. I am not going to change it back, you can if you wish but it was a mess then (much of it reading as though it had been translated by machine) and is less of a mess now. Hopefully other editors will get involved and it will eventually improve.
By the way, if you do want to write about the city of Bristol, an attorney, or anything else then you certainly should use a similar style in each case. pablo 00:07, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• You wrote this:

What you're saying is basically "Atilla Engin is fantastic, he has had a long career in music and made a lot of kids very happy therefore this article should be preserved exactly as I wrote it".

• I did not say that. You're putting things in my mouth.

What I said last is very clear:

"Now, with all respect and since my work messed up totally, please do restore it to the last version of my edit, then, let's start from the scratch going through piece by piece. Would you please?"

This means "Inclusion" "Willing To Work Together"

Dear Pablo, I feel really sad and frustrated seeing my good-faith effort to build a consensus with you about this article I created is being washed away. Not only that, you're now trying to insult me with sarcastic and patronizing tones. Are you sure this was your intention? Because insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all.

The article is a mess now after your countless edits/deletes in a matter of no time. You did not try to work with me. You just came here and started deleting things, changing everything your way. And you don't want to assume responsibility. Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article. Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Etiquette Wikipedia:Assume good faith Sincerely best. Fusion is the future (talk) 03:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well if you've quite finished accusing me of various things, I'll repeat. I am not going to revert this article to the state it was in before. If you wish to do so go ahead. It still needs work. If you want to improve it you could start by updating all the links to the scanned magazines with the name of the magazine, date, author, publisher etc. Here is a sample of a reference from another article:

<ref>{{cite web
  | last = Jisi
  | first = Chris
  | title = Jaco’s 1962 Fender Jazz Bass “Bass of Doom” Found!
  | work = Bass Player Online
  | publisher = New Bay Media, LLC
  | date = March 2008
  | url = http://www.bassplayer.com/article/jacos-1962-fender/mar-08/34267
  | accessdate = 2009-01-17}}</ref>

which displays the following information:

Jisi, Chris (March 2008). "Jaco’s 1962 Fender Jazz Bass “Bass of Doom” Found!". Bass Player Online (New Bay Media, LLC). Retrieved 2009-01-17.

Here's an example from the Atilla Engin article:

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Sindal
  | first = Helle
  | title = Dansk rock til Tyrkiet: Sjoelden kulturexsport igang
  | work =
  | page = 5
  | publisher =
  | date = 30 December 1988
  | url = http://www.atillaengin.com/copenhagenjazzconservatory.htm
  | accessdate = 2009-01-17}}</ref>

which would display as

it's obviously from a newspaper, but which one?

Obviously the urls will be to your own scanned copies if the originals are not available online. But this is a lot more helpful to the reader than a lot of bare links to atillaengin.com. pablo 10:14, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Please, let's roll back and see how things started and did escalate to a point where the article was not in the hands of "assume good-faith co-editor" anymore.

You started as saying: "Far too many of these are to one source: www.atillaengin.com. It would be nice if the links went to the actual magazine and newspaper articles described. pablo 3:54 pm, Yesterday (UTC−3)"

1- This was your first post about the article here in discussion board and it clearly demonstrated that you didn't go through the history section of the article itself. If you did, you would never make this comment. Because, it was already explained why the originals were not (yet) available on line. You missed that.

2- You came here and started to delete/change things disregarding the importance and the necessity of working with the creator of the article. This was, this is against Wikipedia's guide-lines.

The article is a mess now after your countless edits/deletes in a matter of no time. You did not try to work with me. You just came here and started deleting things, changing everything your way. Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article. Wikipedia:Civility, Wikipedia:Assume good faith

Why did you do that? Why didn't you work with me, instead of deleting/changing, changing deleting?

Clearly, you did not show respect. You just did it as it comforted (pleased) you.

3- Now, I am ready to forget all of these and I will kindly ask you to work with me. Do you agree?

4- I can see you made significant changes in terms of references, (retrieved thing,) for the better. Next time I'll do exactly as you suggested.

5- You said: "it's obviously from a newspaper, but which one?"

If you please go to the source you'll see that this head-line is from POLITIKEN, the biggest and influential paper in Denmark. Article# 3 (Marked in thick read on the upper left.)

6- With all respect, I will like to change the subtitle TYRKIS (which you decided it should be) back to ENGIN as a teacher, motivator or something close to it. And I did explain to you earlier (in this thread) why. What do you think?

7- Another thing is that, in the beginning section of the biography right after MATAO, Atilla Engin Group and its references disappeared. How this happened?

8- Also, I suggest we put these words back though (maybe?) without wikilinks, in the very beginning of the article: Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue. And restore the link. Article# 1, 2, 3, 4

9- And I further suggest we restore the small section (in TYRKIS) with reference as it goes: Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark called TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album. Article#:4 (Marked in green, on the right top)

I believe it is very important. What do you think? Thanks Fusion is the future (talk) 13:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Please stop with the accusations. What is "assume good-faith co-editor" Actually no, please don't tell me. There is no "importance or necessity in working with the creator of the article" You have contributed to this article. Your contributions do not belong to you. I have edited the article. That's it.

1. No I didn't miss that. But the information about what the links are supposed to point to was missing. See 5.
2. The article was a mess. I have improved it. Perhaps others will further improve it. I hope so.
3. I can barely understand your English at times, which does not bode well for any collaboration here on this Wikipedia.
4. OK
5. Good, perhaps you can now add the name of the newspaper and change the reference in the article. Then there are all the other ones to do. Enjoy.
6. ENGIN (why the capitals? Why?) as a teacher, motivator etc is not appropriate language. It is making judgements about Engin. Tell us what he did, not what you think about it.
7. Dunno.
8. See 6
9. Go ahead then.

If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here. All text that you did not write yourself, except brief excerpts, must be available under terms consistent with Wikipedia's Terms of Use before you submit  pablo 14:09, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll go ahead and make these small changes (add-ons too) since you agreed. #5, #9, #7 (will put Atilla Engin Group and its references back where it was earlier.)

8 - Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue. I didn't say (create) these things about Engin, Turkish Jazz magazine and "MM" once influential music magazine from Denmark said. So, what do you think? It makes sense to me.

6- What about this instead of TYRKIS: Engin's teaching years Would this be appropriate then?

3- You say "I can barely understand your English at times." It's normal. I am an old, very old baby boomer. What do you expect? Even, it makes two of us, if, at times, you do not understand my English.

• I never said that I own the article. All I asked, all along, this: Work with me. This is perfectly in accordance with WP:Own rules

You say: There is no "importance or necessity in working with the creator of the article" And what about this:

• From "WP:Own"

Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article.

Honestly, what do you make of it? Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 16:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

8) I do not think that anyone has been described as an "excellent pedagogue" in English for several hundred years.

6) Possibly. But look at the German version of this article, which is far more sensibly presented.

3) It's irrelevant when you were born. (I have only a vague idea of what a 'baby boomer' is, anyway). You are writing in a language that is not your own. This about competence rather than age. Much of your original text seemed to have been translated twice, badly - perhaps from Danish to Turkish and then to English. This never works well.

If I fix problems with an article, that's it. I don't care who wrote it. If it's bad, it gets edited.

Are you actually going to sort out the references? The reader (and that is who the article is for) needs to know what all those magazines and newspapers that you have scanned are.  pablo 18:28, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

• As I was caught up in this heated, back 'n' forth conversation, I made an inadvertent mistake by saying that I created this article which I did actually not. Still...
• Who said "Age contributes to competence?" Please do not mix things up.
• If you continue this way, your conduct's soon to be called as "Racial Profiling" which is a crime and punishable by law. You did already cross the line multiple times and it seems you're repeatedly testing my threshold limit. Please do not...

Please do not get personal with me. Not to mention, each and every time we commit an offense, it'll effect our credibility, and our conduct (how we behave,) our motive-intentions-agenda will be closely scrutinized by others, at least here in Wikipedia. Don't you think so?

Trying to make Wikipedia the best (most valuable) encyclopedia is one thing, insulting, attacking, disrespecting others is another.

• Scanning magazines, newspapers? What are you insinuating?
• This new (HTML?) system, in terms of writing links or so, is not known by me. I saw your examples and how you did it. I hope I will be able to learn soon.

Would you please help me more about this coding? Even I use my glasses, I'm having hard time to sort these scripts out.

• I value your input and suggestions Pablo which I can see, they made this article more down-to-earth already.

Please keep working with me. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Let me try and be perfectly clear about this.

• I do not know, (and do not want to know, and do not care) what your race, nationality, or age is. "Racial profiling" is a ridiculous accusation.
• I never said 'age contributes to competence'. But competence' is required here.
• Most of those links are to scanned newspapers and magazines whuich are stored at atillaengin.com. We need to know details about the original publications; see section below↓  pablo

What is the source of the image headed "Danskere spiller op til dans"? It appears to be from a magazine.  pablo 08:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• It was a Danish magazine called "UDKIG" which doesn't exist anymore. I think I can get the front and back cover of it if needed. I guess it was from 1989 and after Jazz conservatory students toured Turkey with Engin. Fusion is the future (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Good - then the reference which points to this picture can include the name of the magazine, the publisher, the author, the date of publication. All this is potentially useful information for the reader. And the reader is who the encyclopaedia is for.  pablo 13:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• The problem is, I do not know this new system, although I can learn.

Can I insert this info you talk about with the way I did before? Or could you help me with that? Fusion is the future (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Use this code

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = 
  | first = 
  | title = 
  | work =
  | page = 
  | publisher =
  | date = 
  | url = 
  | accessdate = }}</ref>

and fill the fields in with the relevant information, like the examples above. If you are viewing the page in edit mode don't include the tags <pre> and </pre>, these are just to make the code display.  pablo 14:08, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I got the details

• Name of the magazine: UDKIG
• Date #2-1989 (This must be published quarterly)
• Publisher: Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
• Author: I guess you mean the person who wrote the article? His name is not on the article itself but I now got the info that it was written by a journalist, Morten Langkilde Fusion is the future (talk) 14:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, so that would be

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til Dans
  | work =UDKIG
  | page = 
  | publisher =Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = 
  | accessdate = }}</ref>

 pablo 14:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Very nice.:-) I got it. Thanks a lot. Now I guess I can find out the rest. Thanks a lot.

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til dans
  | work = UDKIG
  | page = 10-11
  | publisher = Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = atillaengin.com
  | accessdate = 20 September 2010}}</ref>

Is this correct? If so, I'll be very happy. Fusion is the future (talk) 14:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

the url should be to the page with he actual file on it, and should include the full url - including the http://www. at the beginning.  pablo 14:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The url doesn't exist (never existed,) and also the magazine is not there anymore. I do not know when they stopped publishing but it's not there. Only Engin has this scanned article and the magazine itself. So, could I point to Engin's site where the article sits? Another thing is tha I lost track of it. The section in which I attributed to this link, you removed. Can we put it back? Or could you rewrite (reformulate) it please?

Atilla's Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students

• The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører."[22] Article # 2, 3

Fusion is the future (talk) 15:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

<ref>{{cite news
  | last = Langkilde
  | first = Morten
  | title = Danskere spiller op til dans
  | work = UDKIG
  | page = 10-11
  | publisher = Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke
  | date = 1989
  | issue = 2
  | url = http://www.atillaengin.com/atillaengin_crosscultural_ambassador.htm
  | accessdate = 20 September 2010}}</ref>

Is this correct? Fusion is the future (talk) 17:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have corrected it. Don't forget to leave out the <pre> and </pre>.

It'll look like this (no. 4)^[1]

 pablo 18:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Dear Pablo, I really lost my momentum. Here I see four references. The last one is "Danskere Spiller Op Til Dans" (for TYRKIS?) Where shall I use them? What is "Ton?" Are these for this section which is not there anymore?

• The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører."[22] Article # 2, 3

I guess I am really getting old. Would you please help me? At this very moment I see one link, (Danskere spiller op til dans,) but in your post there are four of them:

^ Articles From Danish Papers

^ Danish And Turkish Press Alike, Call Atilla A Cultural Ambassador See the articles #1, #2, #3 and #4

^ Music Magazine MM From Denmark Coded TYRKIS: A Phenomenon See the article #4 (marked in blue.)

^ Langkilde, Morten (1989). "Danskere spiller op til dans". UDKIG (Mellemfolkeligt Samvirke) (2): p. 10-11. http://www.atillaengin.com/atillaengin_crosscultural_ambassador.htm. Retrieved 20 September 2010.

I can't find it out. Please guide me. Sorry about that. Fusion is the future (talk) 23:49, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to know, if there is anything else do you want to add and/or change.

If not, I would like to remove "Multiple Issues" sign, since you didn't come up with more things. I did learn a lot because of your involvement. I am pretty sure it will show in my future contributions. So, do you mind if I remove the tag? Or anyone could remove the tag? By the way, I contacted Politiken, the Danish paper and asked about Morten Langkilde, the author of the article with photos which was deleted today. They said they will forward my e-mail to him.

• I asked you about this part but I didn't get any respond from you. Can we put it back? Or could you rewrite (reformulate) it please?

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a quarterly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors." The exact words in Danish: "De rejste ud som Danske culturambassadører."[22] Article # 2, 3

I can not use these useful references if this section is not there.

• In the very beginning: Engin was called as Cultural ambassador, a magician on drums and (Fremragende - Danish, you could look up for an equivalent word in English) pedagogue. Please check the article# 1 and 4 Ambassador, magician on drums, ? pedagougue

Could we find a way to insert them back? Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 20:51, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I have no time to look at this today. As far as "magician, excellent pedagogue" etc. goes, please don't put that sentence back in. It is terrible English, but even if the translation were better it would give undue weight to the opinion of one reviewer. The article should first concentrate on the facts; what he did and when he did it. Any critical reception can me mentioned but is of secondary importance.
I would really like someone else to look at this article as I seem to be having difficulty explaining things to you. I'll ask again at the Jazz project or maybe get another opinion.  pablo 08:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• You said: As far as "magician, excellent pedagogue" etc. goes, please don't put that sentence back in. It is terrible English, but even if the translation were better it would give undue weight to the opinion of one reviewer.
• No it wouldn't. I say this: From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view---Neutrality disputes and handling

When I first visited this page here it was a complete nightmare, containing such gems as

Atilla Engin (b.1946 Kayseri Turkey) is a Turkish-American fusion jazz percussionist, drummer, composer, arranger, conductor, performer and educator. He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagog.

Once influential music magazine MM from Denmark coded TYRKIS "A phenomenon in Danish music scene" in its 1987 review of the album.

The tour draw attention, both in Denmark and in Turkey, since such an event, carrying educational tones in it, was unique as much as it was stitching cultural bridges between two remote societies. Therefore it was coded as "An extraordinary Culture Export on its way" by the influential Danish Newspaper POLITIKEN, an exact translation of "Sjaelden Kulturexport igang" in Danish. Another one, Udkig (a monthly magazine) did code the event as "They traveled as Danish cultural ambassadors."

Attempts to clean it up and provide proper referencing rather than a series of links to scans on the artist's own website have met with strong opposition (see talk page and recent history). I would really welcome some more eyes on this page.  pablo 21:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

These conversations between you and I, in this talk page, now has to be reviewed by an administrator whether your conduct, your motive, your impartiality and all these things you did and said are proper and in accordance with the Wikipedia guidelines. I did my best. Now I need an administrator to look in to these conversations and sort them out what they are, and what they aren't.

From now on, until an administrator steps in to review our conversations, I will strongly suggest that you do not make any edits including this talk page. Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 21:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Well that clearly demonstrates why a third opinion is needed.  pablo 22:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• I was asked to provide a third opinion. Two things: First, I hope you will forgive me (and anyone else) for not reading the entire torrent of words on this page. Second: When you ask for a third opinion, generally you should refrain from making further points in that section: it's for third opinions. Now, with those out of the way: References to magazines, newspapers, etc. should refer to those publications, using page numbers, issue numbers and the like. If these are available on-line, then you can put the address in the "url=" parameter. However, I would caution against linking to the musician's website, if he is not the copyright owner of the scanned material - see WP:LINKVIO for more info. This being the English-language Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferable to non-English sources; see WP:NONENG. Having said all that, a cursory review suggests that all of these are reliable sources so I don't think we have a problem with verifiability. As for the tone and style of the article, I would recommend reading Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography#Structure and/or Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) for some tips before putting much more effort into this article. Finally, Fusion is the future's access to the musician's personal archives suggests some sort of personal, business, or other close relationship with the subject. I would highly recommend reviewing Wikipedia's guidelines about conflicts of interest. My $0.02, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
• Another 3rd opinion. I'm going to try to set aside the "water under the bridge". I'll also try to refrain from overall comment about its quality, other than to say that I agree with the Multiple Issues summary at the top - and to recommend that anyone who thinks otherwise might compare it with the pages on other musicians (for example try Elvin Jones, a not unknown drummer). Instead, some practical points:

• Paragraphs do not need subheadings. They can stand perfectly well on their own.
• Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not a scrapbook. This article has far too many images. If someone really wants to see these, they can go to the artist's own website. I suggest choosing one image, just one, and deleting all the others.
• The readability is still hampered by English grammatical problems - word order, lack of definite article, etc. While there is a sense of ownership by one editor, this acts as a disincentive to others to resolve such issues.

Finally, I too am concerned at the degree to which the main editor has access to what looks like the subject's own archives and hence that there may be a WP:COI issue. (My personal rule of thumb is to avoid editing any biography where the subject would say hello to me by name in the street.) In situations in the past where an editor had COI issues but was nonetheless notable and was trying to construct an article without superlatives, without point-of-view, I've recommended transparency, that they put a clear statement on the biography Talk page identifying themselves and the nature of their interest. I'd welcome that clarity here. AllyD (talk) 12:10, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks both. I am going to ignore this article for a few days and see what it looks like when I come back.  pablo 16:04, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• I'll be back sometime tomorrow, during the evening; late though. Until then, keep cool. Fusion is the future (talk) 01:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

"I need your help and guidance. Would you please look into these conversations between me and user Pablo X, in terms of conduct, motive, impartiality and the things has been said and done are proper and whether they are in accordance with the Wikipedia guidelines."

• Gyrofrog,

This was what I wrote when I asked your help to review the conversations between me and Pablo X and do something about it, and also asked you to review the article's overall standing. I didn't say Pablo X does this, does that. it was a general approach. Did you notice that? I chose you because you wrote some articles about musicians, you played saxophone, most importantly, you were an administrator here, in the Wikipedia community. Therefore and without a doubt, I thought you would be an honest, trusted and highly regarded person who could any given time, in any circumstances make a sound, fair, impartial and well balanced judgment attached to his conscience.

Pablo X sure had/has strong ties to Texas. So did you. This, you two, are being from same state did not discourage me at all. After all, you were an administrator whom its conduct, common sense and rationale should be reliable. You did come indeed to sort things out, at least I thought so. What did you do instead, you ignored to review this talk page conversations to see what was really going on. You said:

• "First, I hope you will forgive me (and anyone else) for not reading the entire torrent of words on this page."

Here you lost your impartiality. You disrespected me. You were not interested to know what I was saying to Pablo X and what I was not. Suddenly you made me remember that you were indeed from Texas too.

What did you do next as an administrator was even worst. You did go to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jazz page and yet continued making further comments about this article and me in sarcastic manner, instead of doing it here, at this talk page. This was unethical. You were kind of ganging up with Paplo X. Because, you were engaging a conversation with him at some where else and making this improper comment about me.

Not here at my face, but over there!

What you said to Pablo X was, after my opinion, quite an embarrassment for you, if you knew it was. You said:

• "I weighed in with my $0.02 at Talk:Atilla Engin. It could probably use at least another set of (unglazed) eyes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jazz#Atilla_Engin Gyrofrog (talk) 8:50 pm, 22 September 2010, last Wednesday (2 days ago) (UTC-3)

This "set of, so called, (unglazed) eyes" did really open my eyes I can tell you that. I made a Wiki research on this anonymous Gyrofrog and what did I find was even more baffling that an article you did create some years back, was wandering Wikipedia all these years without even a single reference until a set of (unglazed) eyes showed up and put one, the article you created desperately needed. What these smart "unglazed" eyes User:J04n said next was even scary.

He said: "Added a ref & reworded blatant plagiarism from Allmusic" 00:00, 3 July 2010 User:J04n

You didn't use a set of (unglazed) eyes, at the time you created that very article which had no verifiable source what so ever, none, which is a puzzle to me.

Why did you actually create this article to begin with, since it appeared to be that you didn't make your homework? Additionally, the name you wiki-linked five years ago Tracey Moore was not that Tracey Moore neither.

The article looked like this at the time you created with a fake (Tracy Moore) link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jazzyfatnastees&oldid=21102938

And someone on May 11 2006 comes and says "this is not Tracey Moore the voice actress!" Then wiki-link disappears. You do nothing all of these years. You were bias then, you are bias now. Then another contributor user:J04n comes in July 3rd 2010 and says "Add ref. Reworded blatantly plagiarism from Allmusic," a user happens to be an administrator too. He then adds the only reference he found in which he says the whole wording was plagiarized from. He had no other choice.

Imagine, this tag refimproveBLP was put there on June 27 2010!!! Five years after.

You, nor anyone else did provide any reference. As we speak, NO reference. You did nothing. Not a word. You kept silent. You still do. You created that very article knowingly that these two female singers did not have a shred of verifiable sources while wiki-linking one of them which turned out you wiki-linked the wrong Tracey Moore. What kind of research you made? How could you possibly not know that Tracey Moore which you wiki-linked did not have a page at Wikipedia. What was your motive? Actually, how did you do that? Even today they do not have a single verifiable source other than the one questionable biography from Allmusic. And how come there are no discussions on the article's talk page. Has never been.

Now, with all respect, I will kindly ask you to recuse yourself from being part of these conversations because I do not trust your judgment nor do I believe that you can be impartial. This is a credibility matter. I need another administrator to sort these conversations out (between me and Pablo X,) preferably not from Texas.:-)

Well, I'm tired now, since I am a very old individual. Tomorrow, I would like to introduce you the second part of my point of view which this time involves the article itself. Please bear with me, will you?

Thank you for now and have a good night.Fusion is the future (talk) 05:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Fusion, you asked for my opinion, I gave it, and I stand by it. I am sorry that my comments at WT:JAZZ offended you. They were not personally directed at you, instead they were meant to describe a discussion that, in my opinion, went on far too long without approaching any resolution. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have mentioned the existing discussion at all – I just wanted to be forthcoming that I did not, and would not, read through all of that. The point was that all that energy went into an argument that ulitmately went nowhere, and now you're spending energy concerning edits that I made years ago, instead of actually addressing any of the other concerns that your fellow editors have raised - they were not only valid concerns, but very important. Thank you and good luck, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:58, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello AllyD, Nice meeting you. You said: "While there is a sense of ownership by one editor, this acts as a disincentive to others to resolve such issues."

I would kindly ask you to go through my answers to see whether there was any given time a sense of ownership.

When we are able to establish a justifiable consensus about that, I'll then go to the next point which happens to be "Multiple Issues."

I am sorry to use your time but, I am very afraid to be misunderstood. Please read the exerbs belong to me:

• I would like to know why did you delete lots of things and for that matter not only the integrity of the article is compromised, the lay-out is messed up too, which I edited for some time now?
• If you are here to communicate, help and guide, then, do so.
• Now please come up with good-sound explanation to each of my above questions.
• I'll have to believe and I do, that you are here to make it not to brake it.

It's the same way everybody else does with many subtitles, in terms of artist biographies.

• Engin's Teaching Years in Denmark
• Cross-Cultural, Educational Project With Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Students
• European Music Year 1985 - Atilla Engin Group Represents Denmark Abroad
• Composer Of The Year
• World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

These subtitles give perspective to the works of Engin through out the years as performing Jazz artist, leader, teacher and organizer, not to mention he is a composer, arranger and conductor too. He certainly made a difference in people's lives. So, I strongly believe that these subtitles should be considered

• You said: "A couple of magazines referred to him as a cultural ambassador. This fact did not need mentioning four times in the article." Yes, you are right. One time should be enough for Engin

"He was coded as Cultural Ambassador, a magician on drums, an excellent pedagogue." Look at what those link to. Do they need to be wikilinked?

• Of course not. If you think it's not necessary, I'll go along with your advice.
• What do you think?
• This means "Inclusion" "Willing To Work Together"
• Dear Pablo, I feel really sad and frustrated seeing my good-faith effort to build a consensus with you about this article is being washed away. Not only that, you're now trying to insult me with sarcastic and patronizing tones. Are you sure this was your intention? Because insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all.
• You came here and started to delete/change things disregarding the importance and the necessity of working with the creator of the article. This was, this is against Wikipedia's guide-lines.
• Why did you do that? Why didn't you work with me, instead of deleting/changing, changing deleting?
• Clearly, you did not show respect. You just did it as it comforted (pleased) you.
• 3- Now, I am ready to forget all of these and I will kindly ask you to work with me. Do you agree?
• 4- I can see you made significant changes in terms of references, (retrieved thing,) for the better. Next time I'll do exactly as you suggested.
• 6- With all respect, I will like to change the subtitle TYRKIS (which you decided it should be) back to ENGIN as a teacher, motivator or something close to it. And I did explain to you earlier (in this thread) why. What do you think?
• Okay, I'll go ahead and make these small changes (add-ons too) since you agreed. #5, #9, #7 (will put Atilla Engin Group and its references back where it was earlier.)
• What about this instead of TYRKIS: Engin's teaching years Would this be appropriate then?
• All I asked, all along, this: Work with me. This is perfectly in accordance with WP:Own rules

You say: There is no "importance or necessity in working with the creator of the article" And what about this:

From "WP:Own"

• Even though people can never "own" an article, it is still important to respect the work and ideas of your fellow contributors. Therefore, when removing or rewriting large amounts of content, particularly if this content was written by one editor, it is often more effective to try to work with the editor, instead of against them—even if you think they are acting as if they "own" the article

Pablo X: If I fix problems with an article, that's it. I don't care who wrote it. If it's bad, it gets edited.

• If you continue this way, your conduct's soon to be called as "Racial Profiling" which is a crime and punishable by law. You did already cross the line multiple times and it seems you're repeatedly testing my threshold limit. Please do not...
• Please do not get personal with me. Not to mention, each and every time we commit an offense, it'll effect our credibility, and our conduct (how we behave,) our motive-intentions-agenda will be closely scrutinized by others, at least here in Wikipedia. Don't you think so?
• Trying to make Wikipedia the best (most valuable) encyclopedia is one thing, insulting, attacking, disrespecting others is another.
• I value your input and suggestions Pablo which I can see, they made this article more down-to-earth already.

Please keep working with me.

• I would like to know, if there is anything else do you want to add and/or change.
• I did learn a lot because of your involvement. I am pretty sure it will show in my future contributions.
• You said: As far as "magician, excellent pedagogue" etc. goes, please don't put that sentence back in. It is terrible English, but even if the translation were better it would give undue weight to the opinion of one reviewer.

Attributing and specifying biased statements

A biased statement violates this policy when it is presented as a fact or the truth. It does not necessarily violate this policy when it is presented as an *** identifiable point of view. It is therefore important to verify it and make every effort possible to add an appropriate citation.***

• This is exactly what I did. I verified each of these attributions and added appropriate citations. References are from Jazz magazines and respected Danish newspapers; not to mention, all these journalists are too, music journalists. They know what they're doing. Therefore, with all respect, I want to insert the attributions with proper sources:

Danish: "Troldman på sit slagtøj" -- English: Magician/wizard on his drums Danish: "Fremragende pædagog" -- English: Outstanding, superb, excellent pedague in English Turkish: "Bir Kültür Elçisi" -- English: A Culture Ambassador (exact translation)

• These are not biased statements. They all are verified by credible sources. If you think that it was terrible English as you stated, why don't you go ahead and reformulate it?
• You deleted my wordings without even discussing with me. Again, for example, about the attributions in the very beginning of the article which you deleted without discussing with me first.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete

The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.

• • • There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased ***

• These attributions you deleted out-right, without showing respect to a fellow editor nor discussing his work with him first. You just did it. This conduct of yours was/is strictly against Wikipedia guidelines, rules and regulations.

Here in the end Pablo X intentonally misleads everybody:

Pablo X: Attempts to clean it up and provide proper referencing rather than a series of links to scans on the artist's own website have met with strong opposition

• When all my above responses/answers read carefully and objectively, I will hope anybody will see that I was not trying to "own" the article. On the contrary, I was trying to work with fellow editor.

It will continue... Thanks. Fusion is the future (talk) 15:06, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not particularly familiar with the topic. But I would like remark on the tags.

• Tone or style has been found inappropriate . The definition of tone has been given in here. As far as I can see, in this article there is nothing wrong with the tone. No informal text, no first person , no slangs etc.
• It is claimed that the article has been written like an advertisement. Well it depends on point of view. Any text about an appreciated activity or performance can be described as advertisement by somebody. But I saw no advertisement in the article. Nevertheless, the number of images I think is a bit too much. This may give the impression of advertisement. Maybe some of the images can be eliminated.
• As for copy editting, being a nonnative speaker of English, I am not entitled to remark on spelling and grammar. But the style is fine .
• If there are repetitions they may be cleared out. But the organization of the article is fine and it meets the quality standards. No rewriting is necessary. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing the article which was tagged on 18th of September by User:Pablo X, this will say 19 days ago, and since then it underwent significant changes, including reformulating some of the texts and deleting some other. Most of these changes, if not all, were implemented by Pablo X himself after back and forth, some fruitful discussions. With all due respect, since the improvements are made and it's reviewed few days ago, I hereby remove the tag and subsequently, I remove some of the photos while reorganizing the remaining ones. Thank you.Fusion is the future (talk) 08:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't put me in the mix. This article still needs work; very few of the changes that I wanted to make have been made; few of the changes that I did make remain unreverted. Valid points made by AllyD and Gyrofrog in their third opinons above have not been addressed.  pablo 10:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I am having difficulties formulating this section which might require legal wording and definition. I need help and guidance. Could I, for example, use the word "illegal" or "unauthorized?" Also f.ex. "...were sampled without his and the master rights owner Danish Music productions' knowledge?"

These three DJs (Djuma Soundsystem, nowadays with two members) are being accused of, mildly speaking, "borrowing" Engin's protected composition, (sampling from his album and benefiting,) which they publicly admitted when the trial started. They also violated the rights of the master rights owner, namely Danish Music Productions, since the recording itself was owned by the named label. (According to Danish papers.) Les Djinns became famous and sold hundreds of thousands of copies world-wide including downloads, according to Musicall Management Denmark info. A video, (one of the numerous versions,) of Les Djinns on the Internet (YouTube) has been viewed more than one million and three hundred thousand times.Les Djinns Video - YouTube There is an ongoing lawsuit in Denmark, (see the article in Politiken.) Article in Politiken about Les Djinns, Engin and Djuma Soundsystem It was further said that Get Physical Music froze all the royalties since 2008, as well as KODA (Denmark) and NCB (Nordisk Copyright Bureau,) awaiting the outcome of this trial. After the lawsuit started, the story was published in the papers and drew attention in Scandinavia, since this was the first sampling case in Denmark as they cited and Djuma Soundsystem finally put (I guess they had to) the missing info at their Internet sites, about Turkish ShowBiz, Marmaris Love album and Engin as being the composer. They write at their MySpace official site: Djuma Soundsystem Offical MySpace Site

(Once Upon A Time section) With a power sample from Atila Engine Groups "Turkish showbiz", we created the track "Les Djinns", which you can listen to in our player (in a shorter radio version). But like all producers would say, I guess, this should be heard on the floor, on BIG speakers! It's been tested and aproved ;)

This is what I've got so far:

Engin wrote a composition in 1985 and named it to Turkish ShowBiz. Same year he registered his work at KODA, a sister organization to Nordisk Copyright Bureau (n©b,) a copyright collecting society which maintains Nordic and Baltic composers', writers' and producers' copyrights. Nordisk Copyright Bureau is based in Copenhagen, Denmark, and is owned by the collecting societies in the Nordic countries; KODA, STEF (Island,) STIM (Sweden,) Teosto (Finland,) and TONO (Norway.) Turkish ShowBiz was included in Engin's album Marmaris Love which was released in 1986 by Danish Music Productions (REF# 29.) In 2003, eighteen years later, a DJ group called Djuma Soundsystem by Mikkas Skulstadt, Lars Bjarno Jensen and Frantz Vilmer Thomasen (a.k.a. DJ Disse) sampled Engin's composition from his album Marmaris Love and used it in a new arrangement called Les Djinns. They also registered it at KODA, them as composers. In the same year they signed contract with EMI-Medley (Denmark) and released Engin's copyrighted and published composition Turkish ShowBiz under the new name Les Djinns, two white label releases by EMI-Medley. First Release of Les Djinns 2003 EMI-Medley Three years later, in 2006 Djuma Soundsystem were picked up by a German label, Get Physical Music and Les Djinns was released again, Les Djinns' Second Release in 2006 by this label, this time with world-wide success. Musicall Management News Les Djinns Trentemøller remix.

Thank you. Fusion is the future (talk) 12:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

• I was rather baffled by the text which was added in this new section of the article, as it is describing a copyright bureau rather than Mr Engin's biography. When I saw it there on Thursday I was minded to delete it. Now that I see its intended extension above, I'm more worried than baffled. From what I read above, there is an ongoing civil court case. That means there are two sides; we who are not parties to the case have no visibility of what has been agreed or established as matters of fact to date and what remains in dispute. So any representation in Wikipedia is very awkward indeed - whatever is placed in an article must be in the interested of Wikipedia itself and not in the interest of one or other party to the legal case, i.e. it must adhere to WP:NPOV and WP:COI. My view is that it would be best to state nothing until the case is fully settled, or failing that, to state only the barest of facts - that person A is taking legal action against person B alleging C. AllyD (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. They admitted sampling the copyrighted composition both, in their official MySpace site and in the newspaper (Politiken) interview. I used Microsoft translator to read the article which they talk about what they did, why they did and also about the lawsuit itself. The article's head-line is "Illegal sampling costs fortune" and the subtitle is: "The first Danish court case on illegal sampling is on the road to undergrundsnavnet Djuma Soundsystem." Since, as the interviewer points out, this sampling-case is the first of its kind in Denmark, it might be worthy giving this information a go for now. Nothing much, nothing less. What do you think? Would you please formulate that? Here is the English translation: Politiken's Artikel in English Thanks Fusion is the future (talk) 17:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Since I didn't hear from you, I will then remove this subtitle "Les Djinns And The Lawsuit" until the mentioned lawsuit is settled. Thank you for your kindness.Fusion is the future (talk) 10:41, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I found it very suspecious, that same editors, who were with, from the very beginning, were tagging the article, (for the second time,) and making mass removals, after waiting for almost two months. Why did you wait so long? More, removing perfectly sourced and relevant material, including its source, is to me not correct. It is very strange. Equally, the timing of it is questionable. If persists, I will take this matter to the WikiProject Jazz. Thank you. _{Fusion Is the} Future 22:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Please do; you'll find it over here →. But please stop blindly reverting improvements to this article; the style, the layout, the language, amongst other things are bad. Your command of English is dodgy at best, and this article would benefit from more capable editors being allowed to work on it without permission from the "owner". pablo 22:41, 23:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

We could always go back to this version... At least it doesn't have those ridiculously long section titles, and it deals with the biography in an organized manner--Fusion, there is something to be said for chronology, wouldn't you agree? Then there is the matter of the many photographs (of rather poor quality), with such gems of phrasing as "From the left: Nana Vasconcelos, Birger Sulsbruck, Zakir Hussain, Ahmadu Jarr and Atilla are bowing to the audience at the end of Jazzhus Montmartre show." Actually, they're standing up straight at the moment the photo was taken, but who cares.

On that note, consider the statement "Grants for this cultural/educational project were given by Danish State adviced by Danish Ministry of Culture, Danish Ministry of Education and Danish State's Art Foundation (Statens Kunst Fond). Turkish Radio and Television Corporation (TRT,) Mayors of Ankara, İstanbul and İzmir gave financial support to cover domestic flights, hotel stays and food." Not only is this of no encyclopedic value whatsoever, it's also unverified--besides containing spelling, grammar, and punctuation errors. I bring this to the talk page for discussion and consensus, lest the application of grammatical and stylistic rules be deemed rogue editing. Drmies (talk) 05:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Drmies, I'm truly happy that you want to discuss the article and seek consensus with me and with anybody else, for that matter. As I see by now, you are a highly regarded editor, and your opinion is very valuable to me for building an article together, with an utmost level of quality and its all-sourced accuracy. I already agree with you on some of the changes you made, such as lead section, which I said it earlier. I do have some point to make:

• Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory

While he was recording and touring with his band, he also taught at the Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory for four years. Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, Ed Thigpen, Horace Parlan, Debbie Cameron, Bob Rockwell and Butch Lacy were among other teachers. Engin Teaching at Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory Denmark

You removed these names.

These, highly recognized, Jazz artists, (teachers,) whose names are on the English Wikipedia too, are essential to this section.

a) These (wikified) names help establish (support) the notability (importance) of the Jazz conservatory.

b) Also verify the notability of Engin. He was teaching at the conservatory, because he was a noted jazz artist. If you look at the source, (the Danish paper Politiken's news article,) these names were mentioned, along with Engin. That's why it is relevant.

So, what was claimed, was sourced, and that's why, it is my opinion, that we should include these, highly relevant names. Besides, after being here for more than three months and making 1300 (not too many) edits on 228 unique pages, I have encountered many, I mean many, music-related articles. It looks like, it's a common practice. "He/she played with him and him, and her" and so. Many of these claims are without supporting citation. We do have here a source verifies the claim. I hope we can get a consensus about this matter first. Then, I would like to discuss your other respective points with you. Thank you Drmies. _{Fusion Is the} Future 11:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• Keep your thank yous to yourself and stop patronizing. You yourself are not interested in consensus, which is evidenced by your complete reversal of my edits. That is what you should have sought consensus for. This constant "Oh I agree with this edit, good job Drmies" is annoying, and if you respected my or anyone else's opinion you wouldn't undo their work in the first place. Without going through the history it's already clear that you added ungrammatical information to the article in the first place. Nnote the comma after "teachers" inside the parentheses, above: the punctuation errors in your message are of the exact same kind as the ones found in the article, which I removed in this edit--and that was the second time I removed them, since you had reverted back to the ungrammatical state. So you stick in grammatical errors, when they are corrected you revert with some facetious "better seek consensus" edit summary, and when they are corrected the second time you say 'thank you.' That's a total waste of time, and it invites editors to scrutinize your edits to see how much good work you undo. No one needs to seek consensus to apply proper grammar or guidelines (such as WP:LEAD).

  How about this: I propose a consensus whereby editors don't have to get consensus from you to correct your grammatical and other errors. Why should they seek consensus from you in the first place, when the recent edit history of the article shows that it takes four editors going through your stuff step by step to correct your work? A total waste of time.

  As for this namedropping you persist in, against the opinion of at least two editors--you realize that this is not about the notability of the Jazz Conservatory, no? This article is called "Atilla Engin", and that person is the topic. If that person is notable, and the information is verified, then the job can and should be included. Whoever else taught there may possibly be relevant, but certainly not for the specious reason you give above. Drmies (talk) 13:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Now it went too far. This is not improving the article. This is disintegrating the core of it, along with, deleting the sourced text.

These edits, including removing the perfectly sourced material, along with the wikilinked names, are not good-faith edits. It is very suspicious and inline with the personal attacks above. And, the article is not balanced anymore.

Please compare the versions:

• This is before →

He left Denmark in 1989 for New York to form a big orchestra. Several years later, after he had his US première with his first group New World Orchestra at The Carnegie Hall (Weill Recital Hall)^[1][2] he made the second one, a six-piece group called Turquoise which he released an album with.^[3][4] While Atilla and his Turquoise were playing in jazz clubs, they also had a joint Turkish Earthquake Relief Concert at the Florence Gould Hall in New York City in 1999^[5] with Al Di Meola, Badal Roy, Ara Dinkjian and Arto Tunçboyacıyan. In the same year, he finally put a big band together and named to The Istanbul Orchestra, a fourteen-piece group which he conducted and performed with. He also wrote and arranged its original music. It led to many performances,^[6] among them a concert with Arif Sağ, a bağlama virtuoso, at Symphony Space^[7] (Peter Jay Sharp Theatre.) The Istanbul Orchestra managed recording two tracks before 9/11 attack hit New York City. These two recorded tracks later released (2009) in a CD project (Ocean of Emotion.) After the attack, the group could not survive any longer. Atilla left the US for Brazil in 2005.

• This is after →

He left Denmark in 1989 for New York, and formed the New World Orchestra^[8][9] and a six-piece group, Turquoise.^[10][11] Engin left the US for Brazil in 2005.

• This is before →

While he was recording and touring with his band, he also taught at the Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory for four years. Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, Ed Thigpen, Horace Parlan, Debbie Cameron, Bob Rockwell and Butch Lacy were among other teachers.^[12]

• This is after →

While he was recording and touring with his band, he also taught at the Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory, for four years.^[13]

• This is before →

Engin established the World to World Drums And Percussion Festival in Copenhagen^[14][15] after participating in an international festival, Tal Vadhya Utsav, in India with percussionists Okay Temiz, Burhan Öçal, Babatunde Olatunji and Peter Giger's Family of Percussion among other world artists.^[16]

World To World Int. Drums & Percussion Festival Denmark 1986-88

Engin formed this festival in Copenhagen, including other two cities Aarhus and Malmö (Sweden). The festival was first of its kind in Scandinavia and it was aimed to help create awareness and understanding, Atilla said, about the importance of the natural movements and resources of human body and its connection to its senses through percussion instruments. Some of the world's leading drummers and percussion players alike participated such as Zakir Hussain, Airto Moreira, Nana Vasconcelos, Atilla Engin, Peter Giger, Danny Gottlieb, Edward Vesala, Burhan Öçal, Adam Nussbaum, Ed Thigpen, Birger Sulsbruck and more.

• This is after →

Engin established the World to World Drums And Percussion Festival in Copenhagen. Engin formed this festival in Copenhagen, with events taking place in Aarhus and Malmö, Sweden. The festival included performances by Zakir Hussain, Airto Moreira, Nana Vasconcelos, Peter Giger, Danny Gottlieb, and others.^[14][17] He participated in an international festival in India, Tal Vadhya Utsav, in India.^[18]

• It clearly shows, that not only relevant and properly sourced material was removed, all relevant-wikilinked names were also removed. The core of the article was destroyed. The Istanbul Orchestra disappeared, Carnegie Hall concert, Turkish Earthquake Relief Concert at the Florence Gould Hall disappeared, among many other things. This is not improving the article. This is destroying. Very suspicious indeed.

Here how the article looked, some time ago, after the editor OlEnglish reinserted the new lead section →

• Much earlier version

Here how it looks now, with almost no wikilinks, and all essential and sourced text's gone →

• Atilla Engin

Thank you _{Fusion Is the} Future 21:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Yep, much better, after a lot of work by quite a few editors - more work than should have been necessary in fact, due to your insistence in reinserting ungrammatical constructions, trivia, puffery, name-dropping and wikilinking common words  pablo 22:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The article is truly much improved. Fusion, please note that just because a word can be wikilinked, does not mean that it should be. Also, I completely concur with the removal of extraneous names of other performers/teachers in festivals, conservatories, etc. LadyofShalott 02:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

LadyofShalott, nice meeting you. I do appreciate that you chime in. If I'm not being picked up and/or not being poked fun at, just because of I am not a native speaker of English, which I did never claim to be one to begin with, I will have then three-important points to make, if you will.:-)

1. Removing all these wikilinked names that Subject worked with, taught with.

Since I visited hundreds of Jazz related articles, I can see, that it's a common practice to mention all these (wikilinked) names artist worked with. If the editors use this for all jazz-related articles, on Wikipedia, why not here, for this article? Here are some handful examples:

• Thad Jones Paragraph 8

Jones resided in Copenhagen from 1978–1984. He formed a new big band Eclipse which he recorded a live album with, Eclipse.^[19] Jones resided in Copenhagen from 1978–1984. He formed a new big band Eclipse which he recorded a live album with, Eclipse.^[20] Several Americans were on the album, pianist Horace Parlan, baritonist Sahib Shihab, trumpeter Tim Hagans and trombonist/vocalist Richard Boone along with trombonist Bjarne Thanning, trumpeter Egon Petersen, altoist Ole Nielsen, tenor saxophonist Bent Jædig and Jesper Lundgaard on bass.

• Hank Jones Paragraph 2

In New York, Jones regularly listened to leading bop musicians, and was inspired to master the new style. While practicing and studying the music he worked with John Kirby, Howard McGhee, Coleman Hawkins, Andy Kirk, and Billy Eckstine. In autumn 1947, he began touring in Norman Granz's Jazz at the Philharmonic package,...

• Ed Thigpen Paragraphs 2 & 4

Thigpen first worked professionally in New York City with the Cootie Williams orchestra from 1951 to 1952 at the Savoy Ballroom. During this time he played with musicians such as Dinah Washington, Gil Melle, Oscar Pettiford, Eddie Vinson, Paul Quinichette, Ernie Wilkins, Charlie Rouse, Lennie Tristano, Jutta Hipp, Johnny Hodges, Dorothy Ashby, Bud Powell, and Billy Taylor.

In 1974 Thigpen moved to Copenhagen, joining several other American jazz musicians who over the past two decades had settled in the city. There he worked with fellow American expatriates, including Kenny Drew, Ernie Wilkins, Thad Jones, as well as leading Danish jazz musicians such as Svend Asmussen, Mads Vinding, Alex Riel and Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen. He also played with a variety of other leading musicians of the time, such as Clark Terry, Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis, Milt Jackson and Monty Alexander.

• Gil Evans Paragraph 5

In 1986, Evans produced and arranged the soundtrack to the film of the Colin MacInnes book Absolute Beginners, thereby working with such contemporary artists as Sade Adu, Patsy Kensit's Eight Wonder, The Style Council, Jerry Dammers, Smiley Culture, Edward Tudor-Pole, and, notably, David Bowie.

• Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen Paragraph 2

During the 1960s, Pedersen played with several important American jazzmen who were touring or resident in Denmark, including Ben Webster^[21], Bill Evans, Brew Moore, Bud Powell, Count Basie, Roy Eldridge, Dexter Gordon, Dizzy Gillespie, Jackie McLean, Roland Kirk, Sonny Rollins, and vocalist Ella Fitzgerald; he also played with Jean-Luc Ponty. He became the bassist of choice whenever a big-name musician was touring Copenhagen.

• Kenny Drew Paragraph 1

Born in New York City, New York, he first recorded with Howard McGhee in 1949, and over the next two years recorded with Buddy DeFranco, Coleman Hawkins, Milt Jackson, Charlie Parker, Buddy Rich, and Dinah Washington. He then led many recording sessions throughout the 1950s, and appeared on John Coltrane's album Blue Train.

• Dexter Gordon Paragraph 1

Years in Europe

After that, he spent 15 years in Europe, mostly in Paris and Copenhagen, where he played regularly with fellow expatriate jazzmen such as Bud Powell, Ben Webster, Freddie Hubbard, Bobby Hutcherson, Kenny Drew, Horace Parlan and Billy Higgins.

LadyofShalott, it took me ten minutes to find these articles. I can bring you hundreds. These-wikilinked insertions appear to be a normal practice, accepted by Wikipedia community. And more, almost all of them do not have sources, unlike here, we do have a newspaper article mentions their names with Engin, that they worked together, they played together. This is a plus.

• The text was like this before:

While he was recording and touring with his band, he also taught at the Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory for four years. Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen, Ed Thigpen, Horace Parlan, Debbie Cameron, Bob Rockwell and Butch Lacy were among other teachers.^[22] Danish paper mentions all these names with Engin, in its article.

• Now like this:

While he was recording and touring with his band, he also taught at the Copenhagen Jazz Conservatory, for four years.^[23] Ref. to news article there, names are gone. After my opinion, given the facts above, I think it is not right.

I want to make the same argument for the removal of all of these names Engin played, at the festival, Tal Vadhya Utsav, in India, in 1985.

• It was like this before:

Engin established the World to World Drums And Percussion Festival in Copenhagen^[14][24] after participating in an international festival, Tal Vadhya Utsav, in India. Percussionists Okay Temiz, Burhan Öçal, Babatunde Olatunji and Peter Giger's Family of Percussion were among other world artists.^[25]

• Now like this:

He participated in an international festival in India, Tal Vadhya Utsav, in India.^[26] All, recognized (wikilinked) names are gone. The source mentions these names, appose to, in other articles which you have almost no sources. provided. And this was a historic event, happened in 1985. There is even a photo of one of the concerts depict all of these mentioned artists, including Engin himself. (Please see the photo below.)

I think this is not right. To me, there is no justification, considering the all-other articles. Besides, the article might be soon tagged as an orphan, since very few wikilinks left.:-)

Now these names are gone. I do not believe it's correct. I do believe, that these (wikilinked) names should be included. This is my first point to make. When we resolve this, I'll present the second one. Thanks._{Fusion Is the} Future 23:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

That it seems to have been done in other articles reflects (at least) two things (1) those other articles quite likely need to be cleaned up as well (2) Some of those were lists of other band members. Those lists of every band he was in and who was in them with him have not been touched (although I'd like to see a better format than one box after another down the page). As for orphan - that is if no/very few other pages link to this one. I think you mean the article might be tagged as needing wikification, but I assure you there is no chance of that - there are plenty of remaining wikilinks in the article. LadyofShalott 02:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Please bear with me, will you? Because this is my final:-)

You said "(...) those other articles quite likely need to be cleaned up as well (...)"

If you go ahead and start cleaning up these-hundreds of articles, if not thousands, I can tell you what will happen. You'll cause war; war between you and other, (non-orphan,) editors.:-)

I am an orphan.:-)

Well, since my valid argument is not being considered, I do not see the need of continuing with my second and third points, especially about the now-empty America section, and the integrity (the core) of the article. So to speak, why Engin left Denmark for US, after living so many years there, and contributing to the society, through his music, his cultural activities, and his teaching at the conservatory with many projects abroad?

Because, he had a dream. He wanted to form a big orchestra in the Big Apple. He left everything behind what he built, including the teaching position at the conservatory with one thing in mind: To form a big band in New York. After he had his US premiere at the Carnegie Hall (Weill Recital Hall) with his first, eight piece band, he formed the second, a six piece, band. Then finally he reached his dream. He formed a big band called The Istanbul Orchestra, which he had many concerts with, including the one with very famous saz player, happened to be the member of the Turkish parliament for some years, Arif Sağ.

At the peak of big band's success, he then left US for Brazil. Why? Because of the 9/11 attack which destroyed everything I can imagine. After what I was told, no music, no theatre, no nothing. New York was a dead city for a long time. Engin appeared to be lost everything he built, his big dream The Istanbul Orchestra and left for Brazil to look after a safe-heaven. Because, he and his big band could not survive after the attack. I do not see any activities of him on the Google.

Now, the America section of the article is gone. It does not reflect this things he accomplished in the Big Apple anymore. Most importantly the big band, The Istanbul Orchestra and its accomplishments're gone. Why he, all of a sudden, left New York's gone, as the all of these-notable events at Carnegie Hall (Weill Recital Hall), Florence Gould Hall, Symphony Space're gone. There are yet couple of events, I can see, which were included in the German Wikipedia, are not here on the English version.

• Engin hat auf dem Zülfü Livaneli und Maria Farantouri-Konzert in der The Town Hall in New York mit Ilhan Ersahin und Al Di Meola als Gäste mitgespielt. 2001 haben Atilla Engin und The Istanbul Orchestra im New York Central Park ein 23 Nisan Konzert gegeben, auf dem türkisch-stämmige Kinder, die in New York leben, gesungen haben.

Now, please take a look:

• This was before
• This is now

As I said earlier, the integrity (the core) of the article has been compromised. If I'm being called a bad-incompetent editor, because of these things I point out, then, I have no other choice, but accept it.

Actually, I'm not feeling well last couple of days. The whole thing's now effecting my health.

I contributed with ten-simple articles, and with my six-edit-per-page edits, meaning, when I find an article to be edited, I stay and work hard to find sources, wikifying, etc. And, I learned a lot from the few editors I encountered, including Pablo and Drmies. I can see, my interest's leaning towards writing articles, instead of editing. That would be better for me. If and when I'm needed, I'll be more than happy to share my thoughts about anything. Just drop a note. I'll not edit, but I will be around though.

Dear Drmies and Pablo, if I said something inappropriate to you, I am truly sorry. On the other hand, I know you meant well. And Drmies, please say hello to BMK too. I was not that man nor was I any of his associates, he thought I was. I'm sure he knows that by now, but damage has been done. Still, no hard feelings.

Now I'm running out of words. It is a very emotional moment for me.

I guess it's better I stop, and say good-bye.

So long Pablo, So long Drmies.

Good to know you.

Love you all. _{Fusion Is the} Future 13:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)